Tolmekian Tolmekian

Twilight: Tolmekian's TechTree Fix v3.51 Release 05-10-13

Twilight: Tolmekian's TechTree Fix v3.51 Release 05-10-13

Purpose of the mod:

 This mod addresses widespread errors in the TotA TechTree.xml files.  These errors pretty much broke many of the unique TechTrees, causing the AI to pursue a deeply flawed research strategy and outright preventing the research of many techs.  Part of the fix included rearranging a number of the TechTrees to fix the seemingly random arrangement of some techs and reduce the number of branches for the AI to get sidetracked on.  Along the way, I ended up fixing many UP issues, planetary improvements, starbase modules, and did some general improvement and balancing on individual techs.

This mod is a direct result of MarvinKosh's Space Weapons Fix Mod, which provided the inspiration.  A lot of my development commentary and good input from other modders working on their own fixes is in that topic.  Thanks MarvinKosh, Quaternus, deweyjohn, TOV, foxthree, qrtxian and all others for input and support.

 


05-10-13: v3.51 release

Update to fix some errors in v3.5. 

  • Because I forgot to mention for the 3.5 release: The Hyperion improvements (shipyard, shrinker, logistics, resupply) are now all Galactic Achievements instead of Super Projects.  No more collecting shrinkers :o, it really matters who builds these things.
  • I would also like to add a special thanks to Gaunathor for extensive proofreading, playtesting, and feedback.  His contributions have played a big part in me continuing the work, fixing/improving even more than I originally intended, and finally putting out a (more or less) finished product after all this time.  It's fair to say that without him, this mod wouldn't be nearly what it is.  Thanks.

04-28-13: v3.5 release

 

Here it is, the more or less finished product after all this time.  It's been about a year since I put this project down, so I'm a bit fuzzy on what exactly I did before coming back to finish it up.  I'm pretty sure I've got the major things nailed down, though.  Let's see:

 

  • Fixed those minor but embarrassing typos that made it into v3.0
  • Standardized the cost vs maintenance vs output ratios for the various improvement.  Now every race can be content with their own improvements and not shop around for the obvious best.  You can now upgrade to Industrial Sectors without fretting about the inefficiencies.
    • In general, costs went down, sometimes a lot.  Maintenance costs were also reduced or eliminated on many improvements.  No more taking years upon years to develop a planet only to have the game end immediately thereafter.

 

  • Made starting techs that allow a bottom-tier improvement for many of the improvement lines.  The idea being to allow the AI access to each type of improvement and allow balanced planet development - no filling up planets before researching basic improvements.
    • eg. Races that use the "normal" economic structures (banks, stock markets, etc) now start with Market Economics, which allows construction of the Market Center.
    • If you make a custom tech tree, this allows you to select the base techs for your tree without needing conflicting "history" techs to unlock basic improvements.
  • Rounded out the Temple morale improvements, so Altarians and Drath have a progression of decent improvements unlocked by various techs, starting with Spiritual Happiness.
  • Did away entirely with farms, charging stalks, etc.  Replaced them with a universal, one-per-planet improvement that gives a bonus to pop growth and %food.
  • Did away with Advanced Extreme Colonization techs.  Now only one tech is required for each type of extreme planets.
  • Now every tech tree includes the Government techs and Planetary Defense Techs.  No good reason for some races to go without.
  • Omega Research Center: Now with more awesome.  No longer just a watered down tech capital, the Omega Research Center is a Galactic Achievement worthy of the title.
    • Speaking of watered down Tech Capital . . . I watered down the Tech Capital.  Kind of.  Bonus from 100% to 50%, but it now generates 14tp on its own.  Which leads to the next point . . .
  • All improvements that give a bonus to manufacturing or research now also generate their own mp or tp proportional to the bonus.  This is to counteract the sometimes painful misplacement of these improvements by the AI.
  • The evil races (Drengin, Korath, Yor) got a lot of attention during 3.5 development due to general lack of competitiveness.
    • Now have access to all 4 types of capitals (economic, technological, political, manufacturing) or an equivalent structure.
    • Drengin got a couple new unique techs - Superior Warships and Fleet Domination - which boost stats and unlock Galactic Achievements to speed their conquest of the galaxy.
    • Korath have a new Galactic Achievement - the Aul Incinerator.  Out with the one-per-planet suckfest and in with something that you'll actually want.
    • Don't think the Yor got any new stuff, but some stuff is easier to get and the Manufacturing Vortex and Distributed Energy Matrix got pretty big buffs.
  • Sprinkled a couple speed bonuses in the basic techs to speed things up a bit.  Basically, the AI never designs ships with engines and ends up late game with ships that move 3 or 4 per turn.  Now we're looking at 6 or 7.
  •  Uuuuuh . . . I think that's the major stuff.
  • Enjoy!

TechTree Fix v3.51 with Dumb Old Minors: I did nothing to the minor races here.  If you want the same dumb minors you've always known and loved, this is the mod for you.

TechTree Fix v3.51 with Smart Old Minors: Same old minors that still won't colonize, but I added code to make them play to the best of the  AI's ability.  I gave them respectable descriptions, modest bonuses, and changed out the silly race images to reflect their upgrade.  Since they can't colonize, they'll send out a bunch of freighters and actually send constructors to grab up a lot of the resources while the majors are still colonizing.  They still get slaughtered when it comes down to it, but I've had fun watching them.  It's also interesting to see the majors make a ton of regular starbases since there are fewer resources to grab.

TechTree Fix v3.51 with MoOII MinorsThe MoOII minors in this mod will colonize and behave pretty much like weak majors.  Much larger than the other mods due to the RaceImage and RaceLogo files. If you try this mod, remember to use the "quick save fix".  That is, the minors won't start behaving like majors until you save and reload.  So, start your game, quicksave, reload, and enjoy.

TechTree Fix v3.51 with MoOII and Smart Old Minors: Why not?  If you want a little variety, I packaged up both versions of the minors in one mod.  Your minors could be one, the other, or a mix of both.  Still be sure to use the quick-save fix, or your MoOII minors won't play nice.  I haven't tested this arrangement, but I can't see why it won't work.  (famous last words.)


03-04-12: v3.0 Release

v3.0 continues the work, this time focusing on starbase modules and planetary improvements, particularly Galactic Achievements, Super Projects, and Trade Goods.  Also included is a wonderful conversation mod, kindly contributed by qrtxian.  His mod fixes the errors in the GC2_Conversations.xml, so now you can enjoy all the unique dialogue as intended.

Highlights

  • All fleet modules that were removed in v2.0 are restored.  That's the fleet attack/defense and fleet warp bubbles, etc.
  • Entire Starbase Fortification branch removed.  The attack, defense, and assist modules were spread uniformly among the appropriate weapons and defense techs.
  • Enhanced Battle Stations starbase modules and added equivalent Starbase Defenses modules.
  • No more easy pickings, expect to see some well armed starbases.
  • Addressed a limitation where the AI will only use the first 100 starbase modules in the xml file.  Rearranged, removed, and edited starbase modules to ensure the most basic and useful modules are AI accessible.
  • Evil weapons and good defenses are now available at every weapon/defense level, instead of only at the end.
  • Extensive changes to Galactic Achievements, Super Projects, and Trade Goods.  I went after them with the idea that every one should be a "must have".  Costs reduced and AI values increased to ensure the AIs actually have a chance to build them, given their inability to plan planetary improvements.
  • Edit to add - All the trade goods now have a unique icon rather than a stack of boxes.  Except the Xinathium Hull Plating.  I figured that would still come in boxes.    I chose from among the unused icons that come with the game, so they may not be perfect.  They are, in my opinion, better than the boxes.
  • Two previously unused Galactic Achievements brought into play: the Life Force Extractor and Historical Preserve.  Two new GAs introduced: the Benevolent Research Center and Trade Nexus.  All four new GAs are unlocked by ethics techs.
  • Introduced new ethics techs to split up the multiple GAs and SPs unlocked by them.  Ethics techs now also provide a small bonus, so those who don't get the GAs don't waste their research.
  • Further optimizing and balancing.  My last playtests were some of the most balanced I've ever seen.  Sure, sometimes there are runaway monsters and pitiful also-rans, but overall it's pretty good.
  • All races are still set to AIPersonality 11, or Generic.  The Altarians, Arceans, and Korx default to their unique AIP when set to 11.  You can still use AIP 8 (Thalan, Human, Drath, Krynn) and 7 (Drengin, Korath, and Yor) if you want to mix things up, but there are special considerations.  First, AIP 7 is flawed in that it won't colonize outside of its influence sphere.  In order to stand a chance, you need to use Abundant Planets, Abundant Habitables, Abundant or Common Stars, and Tight of Loose Clusters.  Then, you need to Ctrl-n until you get a galaxy where the AIP 7s have enough stars within their influence.  Other than that, AIP 7 and 8 will perform pretty well.  Their research is somewhat flawed (no Xeno Ethics, for example) and they're hyper militant, but they seem to compete well.
  • Edit to add - While trying to improve the Arceans, I tested their TechTree with regular engines instead of their unique navigation techs.  I kept the navigation techs in the standard Arcean TechTree, but also left the Arcean-Eng tree in.

I think that's most of it.  Without further ado, here it is:

TechTree Fix v3.0 with Dumb Old Minors: I did nothing to the minor races here.  If you want the same dumb minors you've always known and loved, this is the mod for you.

TechTree Fix v3.0 with Smart Old Minors: Same old minors that still won't colonize, but I added code to make them play to the best of the  AI's ability.  I gave them respectable descriptions, modest bonuses, and changed out the silly race images to reflect their upgrade.  Since they can't colonize, they'll send out a bunch of freighters and actually send constructors to grab up a lot of the resources while the majors are still colonizing.  They still get slaughtered when it comes down to it, but I've had fun watching them.  It's also interesting to see the majors make a ton of regular starbases since there are fewer resources to grab.

TechTree Fix v3.0 with MoOII MinorsThe MoOII minors in this mod will colonize and behave pretty much like weak majors.  Much larger than the other mods due to the RaceImage and RaceLogo files. If you try this mod, remember to use the "quick save fix".  That is, the minors won't start behaving like majors until you save and reload.  So, start your game, quicksave, reload, and enjoy.

TechTree Fix v3.0 with MoOII and Smart Old Minors: Why not?  If you want a little variety, I packaged up both versions of the minors in one mod.  Your minors could be one, the other, or a mix of both.  Still be sure to use the quick-save fix, or your MoOII minors won't play nice.  I haven't tested this arrangement, but I can't see why it won't work.  (famous last words.)


Update 01-07-12: v2 Release

After nearly a year, here it finally is.  Details can be found in this post.

v1.1 Notes:

  • Extract the zipped folders into: C:\Program Files\Stardock Games\GalCiv2\Twilight\mods  This is the pathway for my Impule-downloaded version.  In any case, put it into the mods folder in the Twilight folder.
  • The TechTree Fix is optimized for AIPersonality 11 (Altarian, Arcean, Korx, and Generic).  AIPs 7 and 10 are pretty much broken, and AIP 8 has certain issues that require me to do another round of optimization and testing for any race that I want to set as 8.  I set all races to AIP 11 in the mod.  You can change the setting, but it will change the way the AI pursues research.
  • My detailed change log is included in the folder.  I'd include it here for everyone to see, but it's a 15 page Word file.  It lists all the changes that I made to the techs, improvements, modules and issues.  It also includes every iteration of AIValue for each tech, so you can see just how many times I had to tweak some of them.
  • Additonal Highlights:
    • Fixes broken UP Issue "Add two trade routes".  It proposed 2 trade routes, then called for a vote on 0,1,2,3, or 4.  That vote was broken and didn't work.  It's now yes/no for 2 trade routes.
    • Restores 3 Galactic Achievements by fixing Tech Requirements: The Galactic Stock Exchange, Galactic Monument, and Hyper-Distribution Center are once again available with the proper techs.
    • Fixes error in some starbase modules that caused attack bonus to be misstated in the starbase summary.
    • Fixes Temple of Neutrality, which was a cut-and-paste of Temple of Righteousness.  That means the tourism penalty affected good races.  Now it affects neutral civs and not good ones.
    • Fixes Planetary Defense improvement so it now actually gives +25% Planetary Defense.
    • Fixes a number of errors in descriptions of techs and improvements.  Unfortunately, I didn't fix the error in the Temple of Righteousness/Neutrality/Evil descriptions.  They don't affect trade income, only tourism.
    • Fixes a number of errors in the TechTree xml that prevented the entire TechTree from being displayed in the xml viewer.
    • There's a few more in there.

 

1,775,621 views 722 replies
Reply #651 Top

Sigh.  The work is never done. Guess v3.51 is in the offing.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
The Details-tag for Basic Necessities ends with instead of . The tech also has no Category or Description.

The missing Description is also true for Enhanced Infrastructure and the two subsequent techs.

Of course I boffed up the new infrastructure techs.  Something really went wonky, though.  I did write up descriptions and everything for those techs.  Wonder what happened . . .

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
Robust Hull Construction has no AIValue in the two Arcean tech trees.

It may be that this tech is also in the main TechTree?  Who knows.  I'll have a look see.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
The Neutrality Learning Center tech still requires Research Academies in the Drengin, Korath and Torian tech tree. This means, that neither of the three races can research the tech should they go Neutral. It is probably best to just remove NLC from their tech tree, because, even if they could research it, it would do them no good. By the time they have researched the tech, their planets are most likely already full with their respective research structures, which can't be upgraded to the NLC.

I'm not so sure I like how the NLCs work anyway.  It's essentially one more Ethics tech for neutral civs, but the implementation is a bit flawed.  I don't want to hold up a v3.51 quick fix too long, but maybe I'll put more thought into it.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
The Mfg. Vortex Factory and Energy Matrix Center modules can't be unlocked, because the required techs no longer exist.

Aha!

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
If I didn't miscount, there are currently 127 starbase modules in your mod. This is not only a problem because of the 100 module limit, but also because the AI has a harder time building up their starbases when it requires too many modules.

I had to do some triage with the starbase modules.  Pretty much everything after the cutoff isn't used by the AI efficiently or isn't used at all (terror stars, for example).  At this point, I'm happy with the modules.  You are right, though.  Fewer modules would mean better AI starbases.  I used that principle to cut down the number of mining modules, removing at least one and spreading its bonus among the others.  Maybe in a future version I could do some more condensing.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
The Terrans no longer have Stellar Folding in their tech tree. Is that intentional?

I think this has come up before.  I just don't know anymore.  I'll have to look into it.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
The Power Plants and Navigation Center are still upgradeable 1pp improvements. Sure, the bug, preventing those improvements from being rebuild, is only likely to happen if tech trading and stealing is disabled, but it is possible.

Can't fix 'em all . . .  Seriously, though, not sure I'll get to it this time around.

Thanks for the feedback.

Reply #652 Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 650
The Mfg. Vortex Factory and Energy Matrix Center modules can't be unlocked, because the required techs no longer exist.

I recall now that during a test run the Akilians slapped an Energy Matrix Center on one of their starbases.  Guess I should have followed up on that "see why Akilians have access to Yor modules" line . . .

And thanks for the kind words.  It means a lot.

Reply #653 Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 651
It may be that this tech is also in the main TechTree? Who knows. I'll have a look see.

It isn't. That's why I mentioned it.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 651
I had to do some triage with the starbase modules. Pretty much everything after the cutoff isn't used by the AI efficiently or isn't used at all (terror stars, for example). At this point, I'm happy with the modules. You are right, though. Fewer modules would mean better AI starbases. I used that principle to cut down the number of mining modules, removing at least one and spreading its bonus among the others. Maybe in a future version I could do some more condensing.

You could try to reduce the amount of Defense modules. There are currently 38 in your mod. If you at least half their numbers, and put the Warp Disruptor, Sensors, and Terror Star modules at the end of the file, you'll be in the safe zone. The AI never uses the last three mentioned modules, so it doesn't matter if they are beyond the limit.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 652
And thanks for the kind words. It means a lot.

You're welcome.

Reply #654 Top

Been doing some digging.  Here's what I found:

  • Maybe you got a bad DL or something.  I DLed v3.5 with Dumb Old Minors and Basic Necessities and the Infrastructure techs were fine.
  • Starbase modules fixed.
  • Looking at the original Terran TechTree shows that Stellar Folding is right below the Terror Star techs.  I'm thinking that somewhere in the process of me removing/readding/moving those techs around, I must have nixed Stellar Folding as well.  I'll just have to put it back in.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 653
You could try to reduce the amount of Defense modules. There are currently 38 in your mod. If you at least half their numbers, and put the Warp Disruptor, Sensors, and Terror Star modules at the end of the file, you'll be in the safe zone. The AI never uses the last three mentioned modules, so it doesn't matter if they are beyond the limit.

Could.  Not today, though. ;)

 

Think that's it.  I'll patch it up and upload in the next couple days.

Reply #655 Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 654
Maybe you got a bad DL or something.  I DLed v3.5 with Dumb Old Minors and Basic Necessities and the Infrastructure techs were fine.

I was using Smart Old Minors. However, the issue persists after redownloading it. Same goes after trying Dumb Old Minors. I made one mistake though. The Infrastructure techs were missing their Details, not their Descriptions.

This is how Basic Necessities looks for me:

<Biology ID="BasicNecessities">
<DisplayName>Basic Necessities</DisplayName>
<Description></Description>
<Details>Despite the amazing variety of sentient races in the galaxy, their basic needs are, well, basically the same. The laws of physiscs dictate that they consume some material to replenish themselves, and require some source of energy to utilize that material. Thus, population support and growth depends on the production and transportation of materials and energy. Any race capable of interstellar settlement has at least a fundamental expertise in doing so, though great improvements can be made.</Category>
<Model>event30</Model>
<CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded>
<CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen>
</Biology>

 

The bolded part is the bug. I also underlined a typo.

I'm currently in my first game. Medium map, abundant all, 8 minors. I play as the Drengin against the Terrans and Arceans on Tough. It didn't go well for me at first, mostly because I suck at playing the Drengin (and the Korath), but things look much better now. I just acquired a PQ 26 planet from the Arceans and am turning it into my manufacturing capital (sans Manu Capital, of course).
I didn't notice anymore bugs, but there are a few areas I'm not so sure about. Mostly some parts of the new tech layout, some improvements and, of course, the AI performance. Once I've finished this game (shouldn't take much longer) and played one or two more, I'll give you my report.

One last thing. I overlooked the Slaveling Training Center and Artificial Slave Pods. They are also affected by the 1pp-bug. I probably need to fine-comb the PlanetImprovements.xml again, to make sure I didn't miss anything else. Still, you are right about it. You can't fix everything.

Reply #656 Top

Boo.  I'll have to fix those up.  Thanks for spelling it out for me.

Reply #657 Top

Okay, I originally wanted to wait until I had played at least three games, before starting to post. However, writing down my thoughts after the first game took much longer than expected. Much longer than the game took, in fact, and I'm not a fast player. Well, I really shouldn't be surprised about this, because writing anything takes a long time for me, but this is getting ridiculous and I don't want you to wait for too long. So, here are my impressions after the first game. (Note: I may sound overly negative at points, but don't put too much into it, as I haven't slept very well lately and my depression is getting worse again.)


Settings: Medium map, abundant all, 8 minors, Frequent Random Events, Occasional Extreme Worlds, Ascension Victory and Surrenders disabled

Difficulty: Tough

Races: Drengin vs. Terrans and Arceans

Game ended with: Conquest Victory on Nov 8th, 2231


Summary:

The early game went pretty much like I expect it from my Drengin-games. I lost the colony-rush. The Terrans had 18 planets, controlling all of the south-west and most of the south-east, while the Arceans had 17 planets and controlled all of the north-east and part of the south-east. I, on the other hand, only had 11 planets and was in control of the north-west.
My choices were twofold at that point: I could either research Extreme Colonization, and try to go after the extreme worlds, or I could try to conquer some of the minor races to get more planets. There were four minors in my area of the map: the Dark Yor, right in my home-sector, the Akilians, in the sector directly south-east of me, and the Paulos and Snathi, both two sectors to the east. I also knew of the location of the LentzLandians and the Carinoids, who were both in Arcean territory. The decision was quickly made, and preparations for war began. Quickly, one after the other, the minor worlds fell before me. By the time I conquered the LentzLandians, word reached me, that the Arceans had declared war on the Carinoids, while the Terrans were going after the Scottlingas, whom I haven't met yet. I didn't want to loose out on the Carinoid homeworld, so I put some troops together and send them out to "protect" the Carinoids from the Arceans. Had I paid more attention to what technologies the Arceans had researched, I probably would have taken my time. In any case, the Arceans decided that my war machine needed to be stopped and declared war on April 1st, 2230. In truth, however, I think they were just pissed that I beat them to the punch. Not to mention, that I flipped one of their planets.
I can't say I was surprised by this turn of events, or even disappointed. The Arceans had a PQ 26 world, Vizzard I, where they had build their Orbital Command Center, the Stellar Forge and the Eye of the Universe (later they also added the Historical Preserve). I wanted this planet and was slowly preparing for war. However, my preparations weren't nearly advanced enough by the time the Arceans declared war on me. In another incredibly stupid blunder, I decided to go after the Scottlingas first. Following their trade-routes, I eventually reached their homeworld, deep within Terran territory, and conquered it. The Terrans weren't too pleased and decided to join the Arceans in their war against me. Thus, the Big War began on April 22nd, 2230.
It was a long, drawn-out war. The main problem were several strategical stupid decisions on my part, and the weak manufacturing capabilities of my planets. While I had several hundred Dominator-class corvettes and a couple of my Battle Hammer-class frigates (outfitted with three Railgun Mk II and one Deflector Mk II) to protect myself and go after enemy fleets, I just couldn't produce enough transports to conquer the undefended enemy worlds. Without my Dominators, I would have probably had a much tougher time fending off the incoming fleets. However, they quickly became outmatched once the enemy fielded ships equipped with armour.
On July 15th, 2230, Vizzard I was finally mine. The war, however, was far from over. I turned Vizzard I into my manu capital, which solved part of my production problems. However, my other worlds still had trouble churning out transports in a timely fashion. The Arceans were slowly whittled down by my troops, and on April 1st, 2231, one year after their war declaration, their last planet fell. Only the Terrans remained now. They had become quite strong in the meantime, but not strong enough for my new Battle Hammer Mk V (outfitted with four Psionic Guns and one Deflector Mk II)! It took some time to get all my ships in position, but the demise of the Terran Alliance was inevitable. However, before I took their last planet, I made short work of the Jessuins, the last remaining minor race.


Analysis:

The Arceans were researching Sensors IV in the first year. While pointless that early in the game, this is just a minor issue. Much worse is, that the Arcean never went after Planetary Invasion. They never even tried to. I could have lost several worlds, if not the whole game, if they had done this. It was just the first test, so it might have been a fluke. However, I'll be keeping an eye on the Arceans in the next games. In other areas, they were doing pretty well. They were the first to research Xeno Ethics and Extreme Colonization, and eventually had more planets than the Terrans. By the end of the game, they were fielding Particle Beams I, which made life quite difficult for my ships. However, they were only beginning to research Titanium Armor when I was conquering their last colony. They also never really went after their unique techs. The only ones, the Arceans researched, were Xeno Geology and Interstellar Navigation.

The Terrans did pretty good overall. I didn't expect anything less from them. The only problem I saw was, that they didn't fully exploit some of their advantages. Unlike the Arceans, the Terrans had already researched Planetary Invasion by the time the Big War began. However, only after a few months did they finally begin to send a couple transports my way. They captured the old homeworld of the Scottlingas from me, but that was it for the most part of the game. The only other planet I lost was a former Arcean world, located pretty close to several Terran colonies. The other problem-area was weaponry. Only at the end of 2230 were the Terrans finally beginning to research Space Weapons. However, they did have Titanium Armor, so, while their ships might not have had the best weapons, they were pretty tough nuts to crack. Had the Terrans fully used their research advantage to get better weapons and sent more troop transports my way, I would have had a much tougher time. In fact, I most likely would have lost.

However, I pretty much did the same mistakes as the Terrans (and worse), so I'm not really in a position to complain about them.


General thoughts:

Speed bonuses: I don't like the increased amount of Speed bonuses in the tech tree. However, if I could, I would limit engines to one or two per ship, so take that with a grain of salt.

Omega Research Center: I really like the Creativity bonus. It helped me out on several occasions.

Ultimate Shipyard: Very good tech and building, but I don't think it fits the Drengin. It seems more appropriate for the Arceans.

Fleet Domination/Dominator Command: I like it, and it definitely fits the cunning Drengin.

Terror Star: I don't think right after Advanced Hulls is a good spot for this. However, now that Advanced Starbase Construction is gone, it's kinda hard to find a more fitting place. Maybe you could move it further up the tree? After Superior Hulls would be a good compromise. It's not so late, that a player has a hard time getting it, but also not so soon, that the AI would go for it, despite having better options available.

Slave Complex: I like your new custom icons, but this one doesn't seem to fit. It somehow feels out of place for the Drengin. Maybe it needs more red or a darker tone in general.


I probably missed something, but that is all I can think of for now. Next game: Yor vs. Iconians and Arceans.

Reply #658 Top

Okay, here are my impressions after my second game.

Settings: Medium map, abundant all, 8 minors, Frequent Random Events, Occasional Extreme Worlds, Ascension Victory and Surrenders disabled

Difficulty: Tough

Races: Yor vs. Iconians and Arceans

Game ended with: Culture Victory on June 15, 2230


Summary:

This was a pretty short game, with only about five hours gametime. Some of that was used to take notes, so the actual time is even shorter. In comparison, the first game took me about 14 hours. The start of the game went pretty well. The Iconians, starting out in the north-east corner, began to slowly expand south- and west-ward, and finished the colony-rush with 20 planets. The Arceans, who began in the south-west, tried to expand east- and later on north-ward, but were quickly stopped by my own advances. They finished the colony-rush with only 8 planets. I began play in the south-east corner of the map. My first two colony ships, I sent to the furthest star systems I could reach. Then, I colonised all high-PQ planets along the way, eventually going for the low-PQ planets too. Once I was almost done with my home-sector, I sent some colony ships to expand into the north-west. After that was finished, all non-extreme worlds had been colonised. However, the colony-rush wasn't over for me, because I had already begun researching Extreme Colonization. By the mid of 2229, I had colonised all remaining worlds, and got 54 colonies. Almost twice as much as the other races combined. I had also won the game by that point. I just needed to finish it.
My Battle Axes (medium hull, three Lasers and one Energy Field) weren't the best ship in the game (that would have been the Iconian equivalent with four Lasers Mk II and two Deflectors Mk II), but the sheer amount I got prevented any race from going to war with we. Not to mention, that I could easily replace them should they get destroyed. Either by bulding them up normally or by rush-buying (I had 176,426bc at the end of them game, and was making 12,422bc per week, with a tax rate of 49%).
As usual, the first war occured at the beginning of 2230. The Iconians declared war on the Dark Yor and, eventually, wiped them out. The Arceans quickly followed suit and attacked the Snathi. However, just as in the last game, shooting at the enemy was the only thing the Arceans could do. A few weeks later, all the minor races were fighting for their lives. I didn't care much about that anymore, and was going after a Tech Victory, quickly researching better labs. Shortly after that, I got notified that I was about to win a Culture Victory. Four weeks before the game ended, the Iconians declared war on the Arceans. I could only facepalm at this, and continued to press end turn, so that this game would be finally over.


Analysis:

The Arceans had a pretty bad starting position. Most of the planets in their corner were extreme worlds. In contrast, most of the regular worlds were in my area of the map. That would explain why the Arceans lost the colony-rush, while I had a very good start. However, the Arceans tried their best to expand. On two occasions they managed to get a ninth colony, but I flipped those planets both times. Once, I beat the Arceans to a world by only one turn. Research was getting better this time around. In November of 2228, the Arceans got Weather Control, and later on, they also researched Sub-Space Drive. However, they still didn't get Planetary Invasion. I'm going to give them another try in my next game, but I don't have much hope left.

The Iconians did okay, but there are several areas that need improvement. At the end of the game, they had researched Invention Matrix, Molecular Fabricator and Merchant Trade Complex. However, the last two had been finished only recently, which means, that the Iconians had a pretty bad production and economy for most of the game. Worse still, they never fully utilised those improvements, only building them on a handful of planets. The same is also true for their Dream Conclaves and, to a lesser extend, Interstellar Refineries. Researching weapons and Planetary Invasion (finished at the start of 2229), on the other hand, went pretty well. They also got Xeno Ethics within 2227, and Self-Healing Hulls by the end of 2229. One weird part, however, was, that the Iconians were going after Culture techs during the early phase of 2227. That didn't do them any good, and was time they could have spent better.


General thoughts:

Superior/Ultimate Collectives: Both increase the maintenance by 2bc, unlike the other collectives, making them far less efficient.

Morale: Maybe I need more time to adjust, but the relative lack of morale bonuses makes it much harder to play the Yor, even when compared to vanilla TotA. The additional bonus from the Efficiency Center helped a little, but the lack of Charging Stalks was apparent. If I hadn't managed to acquire a Morale resource and ran a relatively low tax rate, several of my worlds would have had a approval rating in the red. The AI also has a much harder time keeping their morale up, but you are already aware of that.

That is all I can think of for now. Next game: Torians vs. Thalan and Arceans maybe? Not sure yet.

Reply #659 Top

Thanks for your feedback and the time you've put into playtesting.  Interesting points you're making here.  Your experience seems to affirm some of my worries about AI performance versus an actual player.  Of course, your testing is pretty much the opposite of mine.  You're taking very few players in a smaller galaxy, while my tests use a minimum of six in at least a large galaxy.  In either case, I think the AI is susceptible to blitzing, or at least the more focused development of a human.  I'd definitely say that my mod is more suited to larger, longer games than shorter, smaller ones. 

It's the downfall of working so hard on "balanced development".  The AI has very limited ability to assess what's going on and adapt to it.  So, they play the long game and develop broadly while the player can focus on critical things.

As for the Arceans, they are perennial also-rans in my test games.  I just haven't found the trick to make them competitive.  Jacking up the Stellar Forge helps, I'm sure, but they still suffer every time.  I think it's all the extra techs in their tree keeping them from critical development.  I also noticed that their -1 speed penalty is back.  I thought I got rid of that.

 

Reply #660 Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 659
Thanks for your feedback and the time you've put into playtesting.

You're welcome. It's a bit hard for me at the moment, because my depression is getting worse again, but I'll do what I can.

I'm also in my third game now. Well, since last Sunday actually. Haven't had much time playing it. It's the end of the first year. My Torians have 20 planets, while the Thalan have 17. The Arceans, once again, are far behind with only 9 colonies. The colony-rush, however, isn't over yet, as there are still some non-extreme worlds to get. I'm trying to build up trade-relations with the other races this time around. We'll see how that goes.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 659
Of course, your testing is pretty much the opposite of mine.

It's also the opposite of my regular playstyle. I'm a turtler and prefer immense maps with the maximum number of races. Rushing is extremely hard for me to do.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 659
As for the Arceans, they are perennial also-rans in my test games.

Yeah, they are trouble (and not in the good sense of the word). I managed to improve them somewhat in my mod. They still aren't great, but at least they manage to win from time to time. One thing I did was to remove their Speed penalty and give them a bonus to Courage and Military Production. I also turned the Stellar Forge into a 1pp with a very high AI value. That alone didn't help much at first, but with some further tweaks to the AIValues in the tech tree, the Arceans are finally starting to come around.

Reply #661 Top

Yeah I don't know what Stardock was thinking, giving Arceans a speed penalty.  A penalty to Defence hurts them in the second and subsequent rounds and indeed, that's what I've gone with, along with a speed boost to actually facilitate the use of their Super Warrior ability.

Reply #662 Top

Well, I've pretty much got everything fixed, including nixing that -1 speed for the Arceans.  Think I'll upload v3.51 and let it ride (until the next disaster pops up!)

 

Edit to Add: v3.51 up and ready.

 

You know what?  I think I'm finally going to play a game.  That's right.  Over two years later and I'm finally going to play a game with my own mod.  Happy days.

 

PS - Here's lookin' at you, Gaunathor.

Reply #663 Top

Ok, I lied.  Instead of playing a game I set up a playtest.  I guess I'm just addicted to watching the AI slug it out.  This time, I threw 9 races in a huge galaxy.  For fun, I set every race to it's own unique AIPersonality, except the Torians.  I set them up as Altarian.  I've got Drengin, Korath, Yor, Drath, Krynn, Terran, Korx, Altarian, and Torian.  I started as the Arceans and was going to annihilate them, but decided to leave them in the corner I started in, where they promptly became a total non-factor in the game.  Galaxy is Huge, abundant stars, occasional planets, abundant habitables, and loose clusters.  This seems to do pretty well to prevent AIP 7 from running out of planets.

It's wild.  One of my observations from my all AIP 11 tests is that the AIs all do the same thing and it can be pretty dull.  Not so this time around.  Wars flared up left and right. Whereas AIP 11 is very conservative and all the AIs just dogpile on the weakest one, the mixed group had wars starting up that weren't just the big dog picking on the weakling.

Highly recommended.

Another PS - I noticed that Healing Pools is still in the Altarian Tech Tree.  Thought I was going to get rid of that.  Well, it doesn't hurt anything, so I guess it can sit there until another time.

Reply #664 Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 662
PS - Here's lookin' at you, Gaunathor.

No pressure, eh? I'm going to take a look as soon as I have some time.

Reply #665 Top

I've actually developed a fondness for Immense galaxies with Tight clusters.  I'm actually playing from a 'tiny corner cluster' start and doing okay. :)

Reply #666 Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 664


Quoting Tolmekian, reply 662PS - Here's lookin' at you, Gaunathor.

No pressure, eh? I'm going to take a look as soon as I have some time.

No pressure at all.  It was more of an acknowledgement.  You made it into the release notes. ;)

Quoting MarvinKosh, reply 665

I've actually developed a fondness for Immense galaxies with Tight clusters.  I'm actually playing from a 'tiny corner cluster' start and doing okay.

I've always been a scattered star person, myself, but I'm liking the dynamics of loose clusters and may try a tight cluster run after my latest playtest.  The whole reason for a test rather than a game was just to make sure the AIP 7's would do OK.  It's still a gamble when you don't cheat to see the whole galaxy, since one of the 7's could get stuck in a sparse area and bomb.  Of course, bad starting position can happen to anyone.

Reply #667 Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 666
You made it into the release notes.

I noticed. That is why I feel under pressure, because I have no idea how to handle it. :S

Okay, here are my findings while looking through some of the files. Most of it is just difference in opinion and a few typos.


PlanetImprovements.xml

Anti-Matter Power Plant - The Maintenance is 1bc higher than for the other two Power Plants (4bc instead of 3bc). This is a leftover from the vanilla game. Either make it a steady increase (3bc, 4bc, 5bc) or set it to 3bc like the others. The AI value for the Power Plants (9) is also lower than for the other production boosters (10-12).

Enhanced Infrastructure - It has a huge jump in cost (+30), when compared to the subsequent ones (+20). The easiest fix is to simply increase the cost for Planetary Infrastructure to 20. The AI value for Enhanced Infrastructure is 2000. Most likely just a typo, considering that the rest are set to 200.

Planetary Defense - This is a hard improvement to pin down. The defense-bonus is useful, but you don't want the AI to spam it's planets with them. The current AI value definitely prevents that from happening, but it is also too low for the AI to make use of the building either. A higher AI value, on the other hand, would increase the chance of the AI building it, but would also make it more likely for the PD to get spamed. Limiting it to 1pp would solve this, but would also be a problem for the Yor, because the PD is currently the only spamable morale improvement they have. I'm really not sure, what I should suggest to do about it. No matter how I turn it, there is always something off.

Xinathium Hull Plating - This TG can be disabled by agents, thereby reducing the HP of already built ships and starbases. That doesn't really make sense to me, so it might be better if you set CanHaveAgents to 0.

Gravity Accelerators - The description is incomplete: "increase the base speed of your ships by." Easiest fix is to just remove the "by".

Hyperion Shipyard - Same problem as with the Xinathium Hull Plating.

Hyperion Shrinker - It feels weak as a GA with the current bonus. Maybe you could increase it to +25%?

Hyperion Logistics System - Same as with the Shrinker

Neutrality Learning Center - Unlike other labs, the Maintenance for the NLC increases by 2bc, instead of 1bc. There is also another problem. Due to the way upgrading works it is possible to have both the NLC and Discovery Spheres available at the same time. You can fix this by adding additional S_UpgradeTarget-tags for the Invention Matrix and Discovery Sphere. While not perfect, this does actually work.

Fertility Clinic - I consider this improvement a trap, because the AI can't use it properly. The only use for the FC is, if a planet hasn't reached the pop-limit yet or if the planet is the source for colony ships/troop transporters. However, due to the low AI value, it usually wont be build by the AI, making it even more of a players-only tool. Increasing the AI value, on the other hand, would only increase the likelihood of the AI spaming the FC, but the main purpose of the building would remain the same. I'm currently debating what to do with it myself, so I can't give you much advice. Adding an econ-bonus would make it too similar to the Recruiting Center. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I try to avoid that. Adding a morale-bonus would make sense, I guess, but that has problems of it's own (more on that later). I'm really not sure about an influence or farming-bonus.

Counter Espionage Center - This one has a pretty low AI value (5). It might be better to increase the value, because the AI has a hard time defending its worlds from enemy agents.

Devil's Forge/Death Furnace - I think, you should swap them around and turn the Devil's Forge into the SP. The details of the tech states, that the Devil's Forge is a one-of-a-kind improvement, so it would make sense. The Death Furnace, on the other hand, is often mentioned in plural, so it feels kinda strange, if there is only one in the game.

Improved Slaveling Lab - Just like the NLC, the Maintenance increases by 2bc, instead of 1bc.

Pain Amplifier/Agony Coordination Grid - Another pair of improvements where the 1pp-bug is possible.

Advanced Navigation Center - The Maintenance increases by 2bc, to a total of 3bc. You really want the Arceans to build it, so it might be better to either keep the Maintenance at 1bc or increase it only to 2bc. Otherwise, it feels like punishing the Arceans for doing the right thing.

Aul Incinerator - First, a typo in the description: "must be fed a constant steam of slavelings". Second, the PQ-bonus doesn't make sense to me. The Aul Incinerator feeds on life energy, so why would it increase the PQ?

Superior Collective/Ultimate Collective - As mentioned in an earlier post, each of them increases Maintenance by 2bc, instead of 1bc. This makes them very inefficient.

University - There are three problems with this improvement, all of them remnants from the vanilla game. First, it has an AI value of 0 (all other Torian labs have a value of 5). Second, the Maintenance increases by 3bc (for 4rp more). And third, the buildcost increases by 35. This is an increase of more than 100% (School costs only 25).

City of Learning - This improvement increases Maintenance by another 4bc.

Replicators - The Maintenance on these improvements is weird. It starts out with 1bc (Basic Replicator), then jumps to 4bc (Industrial Replicator L1), then to 6bc (IR L2) and finally to 7bc (IR L3). While there is a pattern to it (+3, +2, +1), it doesn't makes sense to me. 3mp more production seem to be worth 3bc, while 2mp more can be worth either 2bc or 1bc.

Orbital Command Center - The AI value (10) is too low for this SP. The ability to use all ships in orbit for defense is too valuable, so you want the AI to build it ASAP. The vanilla HP-bonus for ships build on the same planet also doesn't make sense. It's a command center, not a shipyard.

Morale improvements - As I mentioned before, limiting the starting morale improvements to 1pp with a AI value of 200 (or higher) should increase the chance that the AI will be them on all planets. The 2nd tier improvements and onward should remain unlimited, but their AI value needs to be increased to either 12 or 14. This should alleviate the AIs current problem of keeping the morale stable.
However, there are more issues with morale in general. As mentioned before, the Yor only have Planetary Defense as spamable morale improvement, which really isn't the best choice. The prevalence of morale bonuses can also be seen as a trap. The AI doesn't consider the size of the bonus when it places a morale improvement on a bonus tile. It also often uses several buildings with small bonuses, instead of one improvement with a big bonus, to boost approval. All of this only makes it harder for the AI to keep morale up. I'd suggest you either remove some of those bonuses or increase them.


StarbaseModules.xml

Extreme Industrial Center - The Description states that the bonus is +8, but the module only provides +6.

Inconsistent module requirements - Defense, Economy, Mining, and Attack/Defense Assist modules only require the first module to unlock. While on the other hand, Sensor, Trade, Speed Assist, Culture and Terror Star modules require all preceding ones. This makes it harder to grasp how to upgrade starbases, because two different sets of requirements are at work.


TechTree.xml

Interstellar Governments - It has an Influence-bonus of +0%. This is a leftover from vanilla, so you could just remove it.

Infrastructure techs - They still have no Details.

Basic Necessities - It still has no Description.


UPIssues.xml

Welfare01-03 - HowAIWouldVote is currently set to 1 (vote higher number if winning). This should be set to 2 (vote higher number if loosing), because it makes no sense, that the winner is granting everyone else a chance to get more money (especially if he is the one that's going to pay).

ChangeGovernment01 - Same as above.


One more piece of advice: use comments ( <!-- --> ) to disable techs, improvements, etc., that you are no longer using, but don't want to delete just yet. This makes it easier to go through the files, because it is apparent which parts are no longer used. The game also automatically ignores those parts, making it unnecessary to change the requirements.


I'll be going through the rest of the files once I have more time. If I find anything more, expect a post by tomorrow. Tuesday at the latest.

Reply #668 Top

Well as far as Planetary Defence goes it's possible to limit it to X per planet, doesn't have to be 1. :)

 

Reply #669 Top

Quoting MarvinKosh, reply 668
Well as far as Planetary Defence goes it's possible to limit it to X per planet, doesn't have to be 1.

Granted, but that doesn't necessarily solve the problem. If you set the AI value high enough for the Yor to build PDs, the other races will also build more of them, even though they have better alternatives and more important improvements to build. If you keep the AI value as is, then the limit is pointless, because nothing changed for the AI. The only way I see to solve this is to limit the PD to 1pp and either give the Yor a new spamable morale improvement or increase the bonuses from the Maintenance Grid and Efficiency Center.


Okay, I went through the rest of the files and found a couple more things, mostly typos, that I missed earlier.

Iconian_TechTree.xml

Industrial Replication III - "Our industiral replicators are now at the highest level possible."


Korath_TechTree.xml

Aul Incineration - "It takes many millions of slaveling / wreteched clones to power it, but the results are amazing."


Korx_TechTree.xml

Super Trade Starbases - It currently uses Trade as Category, but the AI doesn't care about it that much. It might be better if you change it to Economics.


Krynn_TechTree.xml

Robust Hulls - Another typo. The Category is currently written as Hulls. It should be Hull.


GC2Conversations.xml

AI_GROVEL_RELATIONS_GOOD - Line 4318 (Speaker Torian, Listener Iconian) is missing quotation-marks after Iconian

AI_OFFENSIVE_STARBASE_THREAT - StarbaseName, StarbaseX and StarbaseY should be written StarBaseName, StarBaseX and StarBaseY respectively. Not entirely sure about this yet, but YourLeaderName doesn't seem to work here either. Better change it to OTHER_RACE_LEADER.

AI_CULTURAL_STARBASE_THREAT - Ditto.

AI_STARBASE_CONCERN_RELATIONS_OK - Ditto.

AI_STARBASE_CONCERN_RELATIONS_LOW - Ditto.

AI_COMPLAINS_INFLUENCEBASE - StarbaseName should be written StarBaseName. I'm not sure about the coordinates.

AI_COMPLAINS_MILITARYBASE - Ditto.


I probably missed some typos and bugs in GC2Conversations.xml, but those were the most obvious. It's the hardest file to check, in my opinion. I don't think I managed to find all of them in my own copy either.

Reply #670 Top

Hmm, well it might actually make sense for the Yor to have their own unique PD improvement.  Of course, to give them that you have to snip the default Planetary Defence tech from their tree, but that's a small price to pay.

Reply #671 Top

Wow.  That's a lot of stuff.  I thought I was past a lot of the typo errors, but there they are.  I'll have to see what I can do with your lists.

As far as maintenance vs cost vs output, I made a spreadsheet way back when and fit everything into a more or less uniform system.  It's been long enough that I would need to to review it before responding to any comments about inefficiency or cost/maintenance jumps.  To my recollection, I standardized things.  Hope I still have that spreadsheet.

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 667
I noticed. That is why I feel under pressure, because I have no idea how to handle it.

No need to handle it at all.  It's simply a thanks and recognition for all the help you've given over the years.  No expectations for future work or anything of the sort.  I fully understand how hard it can be to keep up with this stuff.  I mean, I don't think I've ever commented on your mod.  I'm sorry for that.  I really wish that I could.  Giving you some special thanks is the least I can do.

Reply #672 Top

If I were to put some work into a v4, and fiddled with the political parties, would anyone have any suggestions?

I mean, consensus opinion is that it's either Federalists or Technologists and everything else is no good.  So, would you buff the others or nerf the chosen ones?

Reply #673 Top

Actually with the Arceans I have been rolling with Industrialist because they become awesome at cranking out ships, and not too shabby at building up planets.  Of course their innate bonuses don't hurt in this regard.

Reply #674 Top

I only boosted Populists in my mod, because it felt out of line with just two +10% bonuses compared to the usual two +20% bonuses of the other parties. Except for maybe Mercantile, the other parties are fine as they are, in my opinion. Especially when used to enhance the natural strengths of a race.

Yor with Industrialists party will build up their planets and churn out new ships in no-time. Pretty strong throughout the game, but especially during the colony rush. Terrans and Drath with Populists are even better diplomats than usual. Plus, the Morale bonus allows them to increase their taxes even further. Altarians with Pacifists is also very good. The bonuses to Social Production from both Pacifists and the Social Matrix allows them to quickly build up their planets, easily rivaling the Yor in that regard.

Reply #675 Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 672

If I were to put some work into a v4, and fiddled with the political parties, would anyone have any suggestions?

I mean, consensus opinion is that it's either Federalists or Technologists and everything else is no good.  So, would you buff the others or nerf the chosen ones?

 

 

Hi, me again.  Personally, to try and even things out, I just gave each party the equivalent of 4pts worth of racial bonuses.  However I also reevaluated the list of racial bonuses so some parties got nerfed and some got buffed.