cephalo

Elementerra 2

Elementerra 2

Welcome Elemental fans!

Here is a new map generator for Elemental: War of Magic. There are many new features here. This is a very different map generator from the original Elementerra. Some of you may prefer the old one, which is here.

Download Elementerra 2 here. Mirror.

Elementerra UI

Magic creates the world!

The world is molded by the magic forces present in the shards. Air and earth magic are relatively calm forces, but when they come in contact with one another through the ether a violent reaction occurs. Over time, these interactions fold the land and push up large mountain ranges in places where air and earth magic are found in relatively even strength.

Fire and water magic are volatile forces that create parched deserts and icy wastelands. When they come together however, they will counteract and nuetralize one another. Where fire and water magic are found in balance with one another we find the areas of the world that are the most fertile, and the weather most agreeable. When there is a great deal of both fire and water magic present, vast quantities of water melt from the ice and collect in nearby lowland swamps.

Multiple walkable levels!

This is a high-relief map that supports winding mountain paths and room for city building on some of the highest mountains in the world! Every flat area in the mountains is pathable. It can sometimes be an extremely complex maze, but there is no walkable area in the mountains that cannot be reached on foot from the lowest altitude... eventually. In this map it is possible to go 'into'  and 'over' the mountains along footpaths, not just go around them. Its a whole new way to extend the exploration game and hide amazing treasures in the nooks and crannies!

Showcased Resources!

Resources in this version can be 'showcased' with little preset terrain blocks that setup a certain fictional context. The screenshot below gives a few examples of ancient city remnants where I am placing Lost Libraries, Ancient Temples and what few ruin like objects I could find in the map props. These showcases are configured by drawing with text in an XML file so that you can make your own showcases for modded resources and other map objects.

screen1

screen2 

Some minor cosmetic problems.

There are three minor problems with the game that are preventing full functionality of a map like this in the standard game. Hopefully these can be changed in an upcoming patch someday.

1.) I had to fake the mountains! Those aren't actually mountains. They are hills made impassable with a blocked tile object. I couldn't use mountains because there is a routine called upon loading a map that creates hills of a set altitude around mountains. This prevents the map maker from controlling the altitude of the maps tiles unfortunately. Removing this code could break all the premade maps that come with the game... Maybe we could get an XML tag to turn this off for a map. Automatic placement of beaches is another thing I'd like to eliminate.

Another unfortunate side effect is that you can't see any mountains on the cloth map.

Note: If this is unacceptable to you, you may check the 'Flatten Altitudes' button which will eleminate the altitude differences and bring back proper mountains.

2.) I can't control the snowline. Mountains near a fire shard in the desert really shouldn't have snow on them. At some point I'd like to make volcanos instead. It would be nice if I could set the environment snow levels in the map file. This snowline variable is actually controlled in the XML, but since I'm trying to make a map for the standard game, it would be good to not have to resort to a mod.

3.) Building cities on a mountain causes the mountain to melt away! This one really crushed my spirits. I reallly wanted to show you guys an awsome screenshot of a mountaintop citidel, but it was not to be. The issue here is also in the XML, but appears to be unmoddable. In the 'city' terrain type, there are two tags <MaxHeight> and <MinHeight>. When you build a city, the altitude morphs to the larger of these two variables! I don't think this is working properly, but it probably wasn't noticed because the default values for these variables are both the same at 50. If you set one of these to 1000, your city morphs into a giant spire! purdy funny stuff. I don't think this behavior is necessary either, city graphics can handle small inclines. Its much better to have a goofy looking city sometimes than to not have a mountaintop citidel! 

160,218 views 51 replies
Reply #26 Top

Thanks for the fast response guys. I'll tweak a little today and see what happens.

Reply #27 Top

This is incredible, thanks for all your effort.

Reply #28 Top

Hey Cephalo...I was curious how the CPU would deal with the OASIS vs. FERTILE LAND and how much of an affect it would have so I randomly made 3 maps and then ran it in AI mode for ~100 turns (5 AIs all set to "hard").  I checked the "growth" of each faction every ~15turns, but I'm just going to post the averages of the starting positions:

HERE are the compiled averages from 5 "runs" across three maps:

Starting by OASIS/WILD GAME vs. FERTILE LAND*:

Population: 76.5 ** + 122.8  (p-value = <0.05)

Techs: 2.0 vs. 4.4 (p-value = <0.05)

Power: 18.2 vs 23.9 (non-statistically significant trend)

Settlements: 3.5 vs. 3.2 (not statistically significant)

*-- NOTE: In several cases, the CPU had an OASIS at the starting position, but it decided to wander around a couple of turns to discover a FERTILE LAND, thus causing a slight delay (3-5 turns) in founding a kingdom.  In this case it was considered as "FERTILE LAND" start. <--CPU was smarter than I expected here.

** -- in two cases, the SOV never founded a kingdom...it just wandered around aimlessly.  These two cases were omitted from calculating any averages.

I think the only reason why "OASIS" did as good as it did in population, is because on 1 map, right by the starting location there was a goodie hut that contained 40 materials...which brought up the average significantly.

RESULTS:

Honestly, I was a little surprised the CPU did as well as it did (except for those two cases of endless SOV wandering).  But there is a CLEAR disadvantage to starting near OASIS (WILD GAME) vs. FERTILE LAND that is above and beyond the normal levels of "random distribution". 

 

Reply #29 Top

Without resorting to modding, all I can really do is make sure starts are on barren land. I really don't want to resort to putting fertile land where it doesn't belong, as the whole reason for making this map was to place things properly. The problem with placing starts only on barren is that it forces everyone to create worlds with lots of barren land when maybe they don't want to.

Can you guys think of any reason why these additional food resources need to be so expensive? Although, even if that were modded out, I wonder if the AI would recognize it as a useable starting food resource.

Reply #30 Top

Variety? :D

Reply #31 Top

@Joe can you rerun the test with the AIs on challenging? There is a night and day difference as to the AIs play and early game expansion.

I'll throw in with Heavenfall on the variety aspect of these maps. They are a lot of fun to play on.

The cost of the Oasis may be a bit high and perhaps would be interesting to test at 25 Gilder and 25 material. Most starting AIs appear to have more cash than materials like I do out of the gate.

@Cephalo, is it possible to randomize or range bound the distance from each other of items and also the placement percentage duing a map build? Place a bit of fuzziness on those items to add even more of a varied distribution?

 

Thanks!

Reply #32 Top

There's a "MinimumDistanceToSame" tag in the XML. Is that what you mean?

Reply #33 Top

@Joe can you rerun the test with the AIs on challenging? There is a night and day difference as to the AIs play and early game expansion.

"Hard" is actually a difficultly level that is harder than "challenging" (or were you wanting me to decrease the CPUs abilities?).  I did bump it up to "RIDICULOUS" (highest) and ran the tests again on 4 new maps (2 trials per map):

HERE are the compiled averages from 8 "runs" across four maps (including "old" data from HARD as well for comparison)

Starting by OASIS/WILD GAME vs. FERTILE LAND*:

Population: 76.5 ** vs 122.8  (p-value = <0.05)  (HARD)

Population: 70.4 vs 113.5 (p-value = <0.05) (RIDICULOUS)

Techs: 2.0 vs. 4.4 (p-value = <0.05) (HARD)

Techs: 9.4 vs 10.5 (not statistically significant (RIDICULOUS)

Power: 18.2 vs 23.9 (non-statistically significant trend) (HARD)

Power: 28.8 vs 37.1 (p-value = <0.05) (RIDICULOUS)

Settlements: 3.5 vs. 3.2 (not statistically significant) (HARD)

Settlements: 2.0 vs 2.5 (not statistically significant)  (RIDICULOUS)

Summary:

(1) Population difference holds up under both HARD and RIDICULOUS.

(2) Under RIDICULOUS a significant shift in the CPU priorities occurs to TECH upgrades, which seems to trump army building as evidenced by big jump in focus (2.0 -> 9.4 and 4.4 -> 10.5):

(3) Under "HARD" difference between starting positions didn't affect "POWER", but CPU shifts resources away from troops to build up tech under ridiculous.

(4) Shift to tech specialization also seen in the development of LESS settlements.

 

EDIT:  Additional note -- there is a ton of variablity on AI growing population/power...regardless of whether there is FERTILE LAND or OASIS ~40% of the time by turn ~70 the AI only has population of "10" ?!!?! 

Reply #34 Top

Quoting JoeTheLoser, reply 33

EDIT:  Additional note -- there is a ton of variablity on AI growing population/power...regardless of whether there is FERTILE LAND or OASIS ~40% of the time by turn ~70 the AI only has population of "10" ?!!?! 

Nice analysis, Joe, thanks! I think the AI still has some broken xml tags causing pop lock. See these threads and associated links where the evidence is clear:

Reply #35 Top

@Cephalo,

Yep, that is one of the values. I guess I'm asking for a noise modifier (integer 0 to x) that would randomly set the value between Value - noise to value + noise when generating the map.

Also, is there any chance to add some code to generate random names for the maps as a default? Be sweet if it could use a modified worldname file like you are doing for the objects (IE point to a given file to use).

I've also hit a bug. If the number of starting locations is bigger then the map size divided roughly by 10 you get an error message. Try a 96 x 96 with 12 start locations and 12 shards. That should trip the error. I've also seen on every map a square region in the height map that does not appear to have been fully processed to add noise to the edges (or something else odd is happening).

Thanks.

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Capn, reply 35
@Cephalo,

Yep, that is one of the values. I guess I'm asking for a noise modifier (integer 0 to x) that would randomly set the value between Value - noise to value + noise when generating the map.

Also, is there any chance to add some code to generate random names for the maps as a default? Be sweet if it could use a modified worldname file like you are doing for the objects (IE point to a given file to use).

I've also hit a bug. If the number of starting locations is bigger then the map size divided roughly by 10 you get an error message. Try a 96 x 96 with 12 start locations and 12 shards. That should trip the error. I've also seen on every map a square region in the height map that does not appear to have been fully processed to add noise to the edges (or something else odd is happening).

Thanks.

One thing I don't think I ever made clear is that the number of shards is for each kind of magic. So if you say 12, its really 48! Another issue is that showcases, which shards have their own, are protected from the path cutter, so if you have too many on a map, there will be areas that are unreachable which I deemed unacceptable so I threw the error in that case.

As for the square thing, that is the remnants of an ancient capital city (are their spoiler tags on this forum?). You should find things like ancient libraries and arcane temples there. In other words, its supposed to be cool.

Reply #37 Top

Whoops. No wonder I have a ton of shards. I'll back off on the number I use. As for the city, I did not match up that location to the city location. I did see it once in a game but never made the connection. Nice touch.

Is there a way based on map size to set a max limit for shards and/or start locations on the setting page to help folks not kill the program?

Thanks for the fast comments.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Capn, reply 37

Is there a way based on map size to set a max limit for shards and/or start locations on the setting page to help folks not kill the program?

I always hate it as a modder when I'm prevented from breaking the rules. I prefer to let people push the envelope if they so desire.

Reply #39 Top

It a fine line when making "moding" tools. On one hand you want to have open ranges for other modders, but at the same time you need to have enough range and bounds checking to help the non-modder crowd as well. Been there and done that dozens of times in the past dozen years.

Great tool any way you slice it. I'm twekaing xmls to get it where I want. Win-win. :beer:

Reply #40 Top

I've run into a snag... I keep getting a user defined breakpoint or something. No matter what I do, no matter what settings it always happens.

Reply #41 Top

Hey everyone. First of all many thanks to cephalo for this really awesome program :) Unfortunately for some reason I can't get it to place any resources on the map. When I start the generator up I get error messages "Default showcase .xml file failed to load. Showcase list empty." and "Default map object file failed to load. Object list empty."... Even if I try to reload them from the program I get the same messages...I downloaded it several times from both download links so I think it's safe to say that the problem isn't there...Could anyone offer some advice? Many thanks :)

Reply #42 Top

Quoting EternalRequiem, reply 40
I've run into a snag... I keep getting a user defined breakpoint or something. No matter what I do, no matter what settings it always happens.

What does the error message say?

Quoting boni1984, reply 41
Hey everyone. First of all many thanks to cephalo for this really awesome program Unfortunately for some reason I can't get it to place any resources on the map. When I start the generator up I get error messages "Default showcase .xml file failed to load. Showcase list empty." and "Default map object file failed to load. Object list empty."... Even if I try to reload them from the program I get the same messages...I downloaded it several times from both download links so I think it's safe to say that the problem isn't there...Could anyone offer some advice? Many thanks

Hmm, its failing to load the xml files. Are the files present? They should be in the same directory as the application. The file names are Elementerra_MapObjects.xml and Elementerra_Showcase.xml.

Reply #43 Top

Hmmm I downloaded the file again from mirror and don't seem to have the User Defined Breakpoint happening anymore, the main download link if I download from that and then open and use the file I always get that error... odd...

Do wish there were a bit more options in the random map generator, so far you got one giant continent that is generated by the map maker, be nice to have more variety in it with options like islands or being able to create a map with more than one continent. It's just... the one giant landmass seems... well... not interesting and not very unique, it's easy to generate a single large landmass. Certainly of course the maps generated are unique in that they are set up a certain way as is, but it just feels a little bland to have that huge landmass and no other options of creation of a map available.

about the fail to load file thing... I get that as well, it's only...

 

Map Object File failed to load, default file loaded instead.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting EternalRequiem, reply 43
Hmmm I downloaded the file again from mirror and don't seem to have the User Defined Breakpoint happening anymore, the main download link if I download from that and then open and use the file I always get that error... odd...

Do wish there were a bit more options in the random map generator, so far you got one giant continent that is generated by the map maker, be nice to have more variety in it with options like islands or being able to create a map with more than one continent. It's just... the one giant landmass seems... well... not interesting and not very unique, it's easy to generate a single large landmass. Certainly of course the maps generated are unique in that they are set up a certain way as is, but it just feels a little bland to have that huge landmass and no other options of creation of a map available.

You might prefer Elementerra 1 if you want to really control the coast lines and such. The only problem with it is that it uses default resource placement.

Elementerra 2's deal is that the magic shards interact and create the world and push up the mountains. That's also kinda why the maps tend to be sortof simple. Its possible to get Islands and such, but you can't trust it to certain settings. I recommend having a high sea level and an odd number of magic shards. Even numbers of shards tend to create symmetrical blobs that lack interest.

Reply #45 Top

that's good to know about the even and odd numbers of shards, the problem with Elementerra 1 is that... it doesn't spawn any snow terrain at all on maps I've generated... it simply is lacking that option. I actually wish you made another hybrid, one that combines the functions of both 1 and 2 Elementerra that allows for the interactions of shards with how the map is spawned and such.

and as much as I want that thing... I'd do it myself but I have no knowledge in coding and all that fancy jazz

modding ability is very lacking personally though I have done some modding in some other game/games, mainly model making for SINS and X3:TC) and messing around with some files in X3:TC but that's about it.

Reply #46 Top

Another thing I noticed with both elementerra 1 and 2 is... the maps... all of them never, ever are made with rivers, the thing is there but it's never used... making rivers manually is... how should I say it... annoying... lol

Reply #47 Top

cephelo, have just received some info from derek paxton about map sizes in 32bit being that the largest map that 32bit elemental can handle IS 12 x 8.

pity as I like having some time to build up my faction before having to war.

harpo

 

Reply #48 Top

I downloaded the Elementerra2 zip file and unzipped it.   When I try to run it, however, nothing happens.     Is there a specific location that the unzipped file needs to be or is there something else that I am missing.

Thanks.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting xaltotun, reply 48
I downloaded the Elementerra2 zip file and unzipped it.   When I try to run it, however, nothing happens.     Is there a specific location that the unzipped file needs to be or is there something else that I am missing.

Thanks.

Something should definately happen when you run it. If you don't have the .NET framework 3.5 installed, you should at least get an error. Just unzip it into its own directory and run it from there.

Reply #50 Top

Quoting harpo99999, reply 47
cephelo, have just received some info from derek paxton about map sizes in 32bit being that the largest map that 32bit elemental can handle IS 12 x 8.

pity as I like having some time to build up my faction before having to war.

harpo

 

12x8? I'm sure 32 bit Elemental can do bigger. :)