Not worth trying to teach you idiots the difference between subjective and objective, or opinions and facts.  Have your little hate party and have fun.

So by your thought process, the initial release of Elemental was also fine and anyone who claimed otherwise (including the CEO of stardock) must be some kind of moron?

I appreciate the fact that you've got yourself in over your head attempting to debate me in a game you've admitted never playing.  I linked you materials that had both subjective and objective components, but you already know that since you read it all, right?  The depth of your ignorance is amusing in and of itself not to mention the delicious way you get all riled up and resort to name-calling when you realize you've backed yourself into a corner.  I love it

This thread reminds me: was the Black album a sell-out by Metallica?

Some day, Domicron will meet the love of his/her life. He/she will then look back on these traumatic times and smile and wonder why he/she had gotten so worked up over some fantasies about a computer game.

Or maybe not.

All I can say is that a game is made by a team of people, and while Jon was one memeber of that team, that doesn't mean you guys have to scream "crucify him!" just because that game didn't turn out to your expectations. In the end, it's all a matter of opinion. I never played Civ5, so I can't say for sure whether it was good or bad. You people also have to realize that your opinion can never have factual basis for another person. Another person may see glaring flaws where someone else sees an intriguing gameplay style. You can't impress others to your will, as much as I'd like it. Anyways, I think Jon's previous experience will benefit the Elemental team, because remember, we are talking about a collective whole here, not one person screwing stuff up.

Lol how did this thread end up just like that other one?? hmm I am pretty sure a couple of you skipped straight over the first post. Any how I have a few facts you guys might find interesting.

Since Jon has joined the Elemental team the following has occured in the stardock offices

• Smiles have risen by 373 smiles a day (on average).
• 67% more back patting has been recorded
• "High fives" and "thumbs up" are at a record high
• the standard of the average cup of tea has risen
• giggles and merryment is up 21%

I think this clearly shows that things are off to a good start so lets show a bit of faith people.

You forgot to mention that mysterious deaths and disappearances have been largely unaffected, as well as calls to 911 from the office. I've been a little busy, and so I haven't been able to stay up-to-date on toilet paper levels and insincere compliments, so if anyone has the current data, please do post.

Way to not address the point but attack the poster. Congratulations!

ciV is a substandard game. The only reason it sold so well as it did was based on reputation. A reputation that has been greatly sullied now.

Anyway, I for one am glad that Jon Shafer is with Stardock. I think he'll do great things here. A different environment will certainly help.

I also think he is partially responsible for the debacle that is ciV. Nobody's perfect.

He had some very good ideas and some not so good ideas.

I also believe in forgive and forget so I won't lose any sleep over it.

Remember when Stardock hired that guy who worked on that other game?  That was really exciting!  Let's talk about it some more!

Overall retail Civ V was way better than retail EWoM, so I dont understand this whole hatred. Following hater's logic, SD should be burned to the dust for EWoM anyway, so Jon should not make any difference.

Personally I've enjoyed Civ V those few times I bothered to play it, so I believe Jon will be able to make EWoM better, even if he is limited to modding right now.

If the word valid applies, that person is not a troll. Troll is an often abused and overused words as it is. Also, the OP has showed up in multiple forums, not just the Elemental forums. I am accessing this forum through Stardock's general forum for example, nothing to do with a game I wouldn't pay for at this point and don't play.

All game reviews are essentially opinions. They are no more important that a forum user posting their opinion on the game. I preordered the game expecting an evolution of Civilization IV - not a castrated inbred distant cousin. I admit there were one or two items that were nice but at a terrfic sacrifice to what made Civilization great. Civilization V is a failure, not because of what it is, but because what it should have been. In my opinion of course.

Domicron, your challenge is ridiculous. Allow me.

• Global Happiness
  • There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING about Global Happiness that is inherently broken. Is there a poor implementation? Balance flaws? Certainly. But is the mechanic itself broken? Absolutely not. This is common to virtually all of Sullla's complaints; A failure of Implementation, not Design. The two are VERY different concepts.
• "Too Many Penalties"
  • Wait. Wait. Sullla goes from arguing that ICS and BIAB are too powerful, to immediately after claiming that there are too many penalties? Most notably those related to limiting the size of empires? He may be able to get to the roots of issues, but come on now. This part really just shows him as someone pissed he didn't get Civ4.5.
• Diplomacy
  • Actually, if you look at the logs diplomacy isn't half bad. It is far more advanced than in Civ4 (Play a game with no religions. Virtually all of the diplo game will be killed as well. That's good diplomacy? Come on), and after the last patch, not a bad system over all. Does it need tweaks? Most certainly. Is it broken? Hell no.
  • Did you know that diplomacy in Civ4 actually lies to you outright? It doesn't show you all diplo modifiers, and in fact does not even include them in the total. The display straight-up lies to you. But naturally, it's superior to Civ5...
• Nonexistent MP
  • This right here I completely agree with as a valid complaint. However, it seems an issue that is entirely out of Jon's hands; Unless he's supposed to be an MP programmer as well? This one comes down to Firaxis/2K screwing up.
• 1UPT
  • Ah, the "Carpet of Doom". An issue that is virtually non-existent outside of Sullla's pictures. Such a wonderful way to twist things in his favor there, isn't it?
  • Rather than dissect the issues with it here, read my post on different methods (SoD, 1upt, XUPT, etc) here: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?101311-Poll-Should-1UPT-%28one-unit-per-tile%29-be-replaced-with-2UPT-or-3UPT&p=1318430#post1318430
  • What I will say is, again, errors in implementation, not design, and entirely fixable, unlike what Sullla says. But then, he wants Stacks back. And has come straight out and said so.

Now, I'm sure you'll be unsatisfied with this post. Doesn't really matter. My point is the issues you mention repeatedly are on the implementation side, not the design side, and are all fixable.

Now, a challenge for you: Contemplate this for me. What right do you have to demand that he admit fault? What proof do you have that the fault is his, and not commands from Firaxis (or, far more likely, 2K, given that they have the money)? What proof do you have that the actual issues with the game are entirely his fault and his alone?

What proof do we have that you simply won't take anything you can and throw it back at Shafer out of a misguided sense of self-importance?

 ... get a grip. I'll point out your the one having a "hate party. Dissapointing that you lack the etiquette (is a set of customs and rules for polite behaviour) for debate.

 Agreed. I am anxious to see how all the additions to the SD dev team change the game for the better. Speaking of which... don;t forget magic for us magic addicts. I BEG YOU...

  oh, & 1 question for any of the devs reading this... any chance any of you ahve plans on getting one of these for the office?  http://www.pcworld.com/article/215751/nvidias_keg_pc_casemod_need_we_say_more.html

 I'm going to go to sleep now & dream about getting my very own Kegputer.

If Domicron was not simply acting like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nojWJ6-XmeQ&

I would treat him better. Others here have tried, but to no avail. He's not listening. One can not reason with a child having a tantrum. Since one cant make a webposter go to bed early, there is not much one can do with the web version of a childish tantrum, other than poke sticks at them or ignore them.

As for Civ5 being substandard, all of the Civ games have been substandard since Civ1. Mainly because they are the Civ1 programing repackaged. The main thing wrong with this series is lack of an AI and not to build an adequate AI for the game is a management decision, not a designer one. So all this blame on Civs failing being put on the designers is misdirected anger. Not having played Civ5, due to the Steam requirement, I wont compare it with the previous versions. But from what I've read about the game, the changes don't seem all that harmful. In my opinion, the changes made in making Civ4 were far worse (I have played that turkey and didn't like it at all).

I've been trying to mix beer and computers together for years, but all it has resulted in is ruined keyboards. What is really needed is a beer proof keyboard.

I hate ABBA. Doesn't mean they are not successful. Also doesn't mean that most people don't like them. All it means is that I don't like them.

Everybody makes bad professional decisions from time to time. Some - like the banking industry with those mortgage-backed securities - make disasterous decisions that destroy lifes of millions... Most of us don't do anything important enough for the world to know things we did wrong.

That does not mean somebody is a bad professional. They made a bad judgement call, or had a boss that made a bad judgement call. They were denided sufficient funding, or put in front of a crippling deadline. There is a million reasons for a single product to go bad...

Everybody who read my review of Civ5 knows I am not in love with that game. The thing is although the hindsight is always 20/20 I am not sure I would do a beter job when starting with a blank whiteboard... 

Did they pay off gamespot to give civ5 a 9.0 rating , no offense i hope what u add makes elemental the top game around, but seriously i think 2k games is paying ppl of for reviews .

on the other hand welcome jon. i dont blame civ 5 on u i blame it on companys selling out to people like 2k games and ea, eveyrthing usually goes down hilll when u get the suits telling u how to make a game.

I agree with you dopey.

Firaxis/2k has turned the civ-fans world upside down and are now very upset with Shafer because of it.

Criticism from the hateful civ fans has been harsh from what I've seen, but I just hope Shafer will be able to keep his head up high and ignore the unwarranted jabs.

-.-

Jon Shafer - The way it works at Firaxis is that there is a designer, and he is also the gameplay programmer who programs all the gameplay rules, and he also programs all the AI.

Jon Shafer - Our teams are getting bigger now, so on Civilization V I didn’t program all the AI. Only about half.

Jon Shafer - We had a combat programmer doing combat AI, and a programmer doing the AI for the workers and explorers, but I programmed all the game rules and the diplomatic and economic AI.

The problem here is that the AI was deemed less than worthy.

http://fightclubua.net/images/Civ/civwtf1.jpg

http://fightclubua.net/images/Civ/civwtf2.jpg

http://fightclubua.net/images/Civ/civwtf3.jpg

If you look at those 3 pictures and have played Civilization a few things should stand out. One, I only have a few units. A crossbow, a rifle, and a swordsman. Two, Napoleon has a giant fleet bombarding that grey colored city state next to me. Over a 200 year period not a single land unit arrives but the bombardment continues. Three, I'm not this players ally nor is the third player with a score of 54. Four, I don't build any units for the next 200 years, and I won. I built a building now and then but clicked the next button from 1800 forward to do that.

That brings us to diplomacy and economy. They were both critically flawed. So when you break it down the things he programmed... didn't even work.

Welcome and good luck.  

I hope your skin is as thick as the rest of the Stardock team.  

So you won on a "time victory"?

I always disable 'time victory' when it comes to Steam's Sid V.  Oddly shaped AI or not, 'time victories' suck.

-.-

So you cite combat AI which he specifically states he did not work on.

Diplomacy AI is actually deeper than in civ4, you simply did not see all of it (by design); That changed. Now people say it's "insane" as the AI plays to win rather than roleplay; That doesn't make it broken, just different. For better or worse.

The economic AI is flawed how, exactly?

True but bad judgments calls are usually signaled out, either by the person themselves, their peers or outside persons. This seems to be the only industry on the planet that claims anyone who tries to attribute responsibility to them is a troll and offensive. It's ridiculous really. Still, there is no way to blame him specifically for things, but i think's perfectly fair for those who dislike Civ V, which is not a small number, to be skeptical and a little wary which does not equate to attacking him personally. It should be more like this team (the developer, the publisher and all the peeps involved), destroyed this game and now certain communities are angry. I don't want to see people personally attacked, especially by people who have no clue what exactly he was responsible for, but it doesn't help having people like Brad running around almost claiming that no one has responsibility for these screw up so shut the hell up. As usual, in gaming it's always the clients fault. That just stokes a fire.  I am disappointed too. Civ V has ended a long run of loving  civ games for me, since the first game actually, but I don't equate that to a disasterous game so much as another dumbed down let's pander to the impatient crowd move. It won't be the first or lat series i write off. Elemental was disaster and unfinished game...

It's really a good sign people even give a shit about Elemental at this point because most games with this kind of release would take their beating on forums and with reviews, wind up in a bargain bin and not be talked about again.

Well, we all make mistakes. It's part of being human. What we do after is most important. How we correct the mistake and ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Elemental's release was a disaster. Everyone knows this and Brad has admitted as much.

However, huge steps have been made to correct it. Some very impressive talent has been hired over the last few months and Stardock is literally putting their money where their mouth is. Also, the CEO has even gone on record as saying that he'd be willing to take a loss in order to retain the company's good name or something like that.

That is something I truly respect and I am sure others do too. Perhaps this is why people still "give a shit" about Elemental.

As far as Jon Shafer goes, I think he certainly made some mistakes with Civilization 5. I thought the game was piss poor. However, that's water under the bridge for me now. Now Jon Shafer is with Stardock and working on Elemental. So, I'd like to see him apply his considerable talents in improving the game.

Anyway, I'd love to see the same steps taken by Firaxis to fix Civilization 5 but I'm certainly not holding my breath.