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Elemental 2011: THE LIST

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Elemental 2011: THE LIST

from Elemental Forums

This is by no means a complete list of things that are on our mind for Elemental for 2011.  For those of you just joining our community I should first start out with an explanation of what Stardock is about and what makes our games a bit...different that is the norm in 2011. It might be more accurate to say that Stardock is how game companies in the PC industry used to pretty much operate prior to the flood of IPOs in the late 90s that changed our industry so dramatically.

At GDC 2011 I will be doing a talk about game designs that fail and will be using Elemental's development and subsequent launch as my case study example as this may help up and coming game developers learn some of the pitfalls of when you transition from having a small game team to a much larger one.

Anyway, Elemental: War of Magic was released in August 2011.  Contrary to what some would have you believe, it was a finished game when it shipped. It just sucked and was horrendously buggy.  We didn't think it sucked or was buggy but given we had been working 90 hours plus for months on end, I think, with the benefit of hindsight, that our judgment was a bit impaired across the board.  But what is past is past.

However (and this is important), Stardock is both the developer AND the publisher. Next time you load up a game, pay attention to that first intro screen that lists TWO names: The guys who make the game and the guys who publish.  Since we're both on Elemental, we could go back and revisit all the things in the game that went wrong and do something meaningful about them.

So here's a partial list of things that we think are big deals that we want to address this year in the Elemental universe in order to make it the classic PC fantasy strategy game of its time.

1. Core Engine Stuff.  This means smarter memory management so that we can have larger maps, faster late game performance, etc.

2. Core Strategic AI stuff.  This means an AI that plays the game strategically in an intelligent way.

3. Core Tactical AI stuff.  This means that when you have a battle tactically, the AI units play as if they were being controlled by another human.

4. Core Diplomacy AI stuff.  More interesting and intelligent diplomatic options available to players.

5. More overt AI differentiation. That is, each faction plays different to the point that players can see a difference. They're not predictable but rather they have different ways of achieving their objectives.

6. More faction differentiation. That is, each player is blatantly different across the board. Techs, improvements, weapons, racial attributes, etc.

7. More interesting tactical battles. Specifically, tactical battles that blend the best of strategy and RPG together. A complete rewrite of what we have today.

8. More interesting and important city differentation. That means, more explicit ways to specialize cities, more interesting ways to make different cities unique and strategic on their own.

9. Vastly more interesting world. We have this great world with great lore behind it but you don't see it in the game. This is going to change this year as the lore of Elemental comes into play both in terms of actual game mechanics and game play but in the general feel of the world.

10. Much more modding support than what we have today.

Start Monday, 3 new people join Stardock and are being added to the Elemental team.  And two of them are pretty well known and the other is an amazing game developer that we've bee fortunate enough to find.

Stardock is looking to hire more people for the Elemental team (in particular, Kael and I are trying to recruit a seasoned lead game developer). Please contact myself of Derek if you know anyone who would fit that description.  Stardock has some other game projects that start up this year as well and the publishing group is working on some new things as well. So it's going to be a pretty exciting year for Stardock gamers.

The list I have above is not even remotely a complete one but it summarizes some of the big things on our mind.  I approved the necessary budget in December to fund Elemental for both 2011 and 2012 (most of Stardock's revenue comes from other parts of the company -- we don't live or die on our game sales but we care deeply about our games).

 

elemental
250,607 views 78 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

-Continue to expand on the content that is already in game. More items, more abilities, more spells, more quests! (Big emphasis on the last one.)

 

+1

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting HallowedBMyName, reply 19
Good list, seems like it covers a lot ... except for one thing ... A BETTER MAGIC SYSTEM! 

 

I know that this has been mentioned a LOT (and I mean a lot) on the forums, but seeing as how your list doesn't specifically state anything about the magic system (I know you said it's not exhaustive, but this is important), I thought I'd reiterate. The magic system (spells, tactical magic, overland magic, more spell focus in general) needs a major uplift, if not complete overhaul. As I've mentioned a few other times, the thing that makes the game not quite fun to play (and sometimes downright boring, to be honest) is the fact that this is not a fantasy strategy game right now, it's just a strategy game. The game needs more spells, many more. You have a list of about 300 spells that were submitted and that you own now, put the best 100 in there. After that, add 200 more, just make sure the game has diversified spells. I want to be able to have a choice of many tactical spells when in a fight, and I want to have many overland spells (and not just the "raise land," "lower land," etc). Remember, it's ok to use the generic fantasy stuff that people are used to in other games, that doesn't make it look cheap. You can have your unique style of things and still have some "old-fashioned" magic and spells.

I know it's like beating a dead horse mentioning this again and again, but please give us an overview of what you plan on doing to the magic system. THIS, in my opinion, it's good implementation, and the AI's ability to use it well, are more important than everything on your list. It's what made MoM, HoMM, AoW:SM, etc. fun: a good fantasy magic system.

  

Agreed.

I'm worried. No mention of magic at all in the list? 

SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 20

 I disagree.

I disagree you disagree.

Actually, I looked at the list again. The way they order the top 10 items possibly gives you an insight to their priorities. #1 is a generic technical issue, #2-#5 are AI related. Good AI is important, but it's not going to make a fantasy game fun to play, much less anything on the class of MOM, AOW, HOMM..

No mention about magic.. very disappointing.. 

 

 

 

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

For those unable to read English:

So here's a partial list of things

:P

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Cool new, indeed.

But may I ask about one more point: remove some bugs, please. Todays (ver 1.1) game a really "horrendously buggy".

 

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Good list, seems like it covers a lot ... except for one thing ... A BETTER MAGIC SYSTEM!

hmm we got a better magic system in 1.1 the only thing that missing more spells and more fun spells :D

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 20

I disagree. I think that the magic system is entirely fine. Do you have any actual flaws with it that you could point out?

 

 

There are a few things actually:

-Make intelligence more meaningful for the sovereign.

-Allow spells to have casting time where several turns of build up is required to cast, time based on intelligence?
     (This is the only one I would consider an actual flaw. Being able to cast the spell of making or a volcano
       instantly and with no warning is  somewhat game breaking.)

-Spells that are being cast can be detected and countered

-Allow spells to have cooldown where that spell cannot be cast again for a certain period of time

-Allow for spells with strategic and tactical usage (like heal)

 

Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top

Are some of you smoking crack?  Magic is not even playable option in higher difficulties.  Lets see cast one spell for 25 damage a round or melee attack 3 to 5 times for 60+ damage an attack equaling a grand total of 180+ to 300+ damage a round.

How can you say the magic system is working.  You cant even play a straight up mage character because magic is jacked.  Using magic in normal is a playable option, but not higher difficulties.  For some of you that make the comment that magic is fine you must focus your Sov as a warrior or you never have played anything, but easier difficulties.

Playing rid/rid with magic is like a bee stinging an elephant.  Magic has no purpose in higher difficulties besides a couple of enchantments and teleport.  So if you think the magic system is fine you better get your head out of the hole.  Magic needs to be properly balanced for all difficulty levels, but I don't want it to be an easy win solution like a warrior type Sov is right now (needs to be fixed badly way overpowered).  How many spells on that list do you use or find useful?  Magic in its current state you are only using a handful of spells.  To start with they did not give us many spells at first.  Than they added spells to make the list longer.  Now we got this longer list, but only maybe 4 or 5 of the spells in the entire list are useful.  The other spells serve no purpose, but to add to a list.  Now that is sad.

Magic should be on the list.  I don't care if this was a partial list because of its importance to be looked at and fixed it should have been shown as a priority.  A lot of people bought this game because of the magic element and in its current state it has no magic.  I cant even touch the game because I am so tired of whacking things with a piece of metal.  I want to blast the crap of things.  I want to have useful utility spells.  I want spells that will do cool stuff, but have severe or dramatic effects to me and all players.  Where are the global enchantments?  I want to play a mage type Sov from the start of the game and not have to wait to cast a spell besides imbue hero.

I cant believe someone actually posted that the magic system is fine the way it is.  Must be a straight whack a mole player.

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Reply #34 from Stardock Forums Top

I actually agree that system itself that is in place is fine.  I LIKE the ideas of physical spellbooks, but the only thing it seems to really need is MORE spells and more intelligent AI use.  A more intelligent AI would remove the need for playing on rediculous/rediculous. 

 

Although I'm more of a MOM fan, I actually do LIKE the idea of wizards towers from AOW II and would like to see that idea reinstated (including ) and a spell points system.  However, with teh revamping of the magic system the points brought up for '2011' are more important.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 20

I disagree. I think that the magic system is entirely fine. Do you have any actual flaws with it that you could point out?

Meh, I hate replying a long time later; most people have already responded with what I wanted to say. I'll add this:

-spells are weak (compare to any other fantasy strategy game that people consider "classic," and there's no comparison).

-shards are now, with the new changes, almost an afterthought. They are completely unnecessary. You can get your mana with buildings, if necessary; they only provide mana ... very uninspired. I know this was changed in 1.1 but they should be more important/necessary to a good magic system instead of providing a pittance in mana.

-like some people mentioned, tactical magic is just not there. Why cast spells when you can just attack with melee? Right now there's no comparison. And not only damage-wise, but it seems to me that since the 1.1 patch where attacks are getting blocked left and right, magic seems to be getting blocked more than melee? That doesn't seem right.

 

That's all I can think of, and some of this has already been mentioned. The only thing that stands out to me, really, is the spells. They are few, and pretty boring. If these were good and fun to use, then it would be different, and worth having the other problems. They could have been more "epic," but they looked very dumbed-down (raise land, lower land, heal spell that heals like 6 life (????), Regeneration that heals 2hp per turn (??)); kinda weak.

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

The game has come a long ways since release.  Congrats, and Thank You!  Excited to hear about the new staff.

Hopefully you'll also be reviewing the Tech trees as earlier style tech should be easier to acquire, much like your implementation of spells/spell books.

Character Creation is currently meaningless.  You could start with any random hero and it doesn't matter one bit.   As your King/Queen levels nearly all points gets dumped into Intelligence.  If you desired to create a fire mage (for instance), it's sad when the only nodes you find are water.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

If you desired to create a fire mage (for instance), it's sad when the only nodes you find are water.

Even with exploration, you cannot find a fire node?

I find that I have to explore, locate and claim (or conquer a neighbor) to use the node of interest.

-.-

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

The magic system does not need a revamp, was what was trying to be said. It does need IMPROVEMENTS, but the basic system is fine. For example, making magic more powerful does not require a whole new system, it is actually quite simple to do. Also, making intelligence more important for magic is also very simple to do, any modder can do it right now actually. The idea of magic taking turns to cast might be something that would need to be added though.

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting BlackRainZ, reply 38
The idea of magic taking turns to cast might be something that would need to be added though.

There are tags for this in the XML already, so its coming.

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting HallowedBMyName, reply 35

-like some people mentioned, tactical magic is just not there. Why cast spells when you can just attack with melee?k.

I'm actually of the opinion tactical spell damage dealing should be kept low.  Mages shouldn't be popping off fireballs in the midst of battles.  What they should be doing is causing catastrophic mayhem miles away.  Earthquakes, volcanoes, storms, etc.  Not wussy bolts of lightning from their fingertips.

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 32
There are a few things actually:

-Make intelligence more meaningful for the sovereign.
Intelligence failing to be meaningful is a problem with spell design, not the system. Even just making Heal int-based would go a long way to fixing this.

-Allow spells to have casting time where several turns of build up is required to cast, time based on intelligence?
     (This is the only one I would consider an actual flaw. Being able to cast the spell of making or a volcano

       instantly and with no warning is  somewhat game breaking.)

This is true and a good point. I concede that this is indeed an alteration to the system which should be made. Making INT speed it up is a good idea too - I'd say the best way to accomplish that would be to give each spell some point value which must be reached, and add INT to a variable each turn until that number is reached. To make it simpler for users, this number could also be the mana cost, but that might require some significant math to make balanced.
This same principle should also be applied to tactical spells, though most of the ones we have now should still be cheap enough to be cast in one round.

-Spells that are being cast can be detected and countered
That is a potential alteration in the sense that it has the potential to exist. I'm not sure it would actually contribute positively to the game, though, and it's liable to be a huge mess in implementation.
-Allow spells to have cooldown where that spell cannot be cast again for a certain period of time
That would be redundant with the multi-turn casting, and would be a worse solution as it is a gamist device that makes no real sense within the context of fluff.
-Allow for spells with strategic and tactical usage (like heal)
That's something we could use. As I recall, it's planned to happen already.

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting phauren, reply 33
Are some of you smoking crack?  Magic is not even playable option in higher difficulties.  Lets see cast one spell for 25 damage a round or melee attack 3 to 5 times for 60+ damage an attack equaling a grand total of 180+ to 300+ damage a round.

How can you say the magic system is working.  You cant even play a straight up mage character because magic is jacked.  Using magic in normal is a playable option, but not higher difficulties.  For some of you that make the comment that magic is fine you must focus your Sov as a warrior or you never have played anything, but easier difficulties.

Playing rid/rid with magic is like a bee stinging an elephant.  Magic has no purpose in higher difficulties besides a couple of enchantments and teleport.  So if you think the magic system is fine you better get your head out of the hole.  Magic needs to be properly balanced for all difficulty levels, but I don't want it to be an easy win solution like a warrior type Sov is right now (needs to be fixed badly way overpowered).  How many spells on that list do you use or find useful?  Magic in its current state you are only using a handful of spells.  To start with they did not give us many spells at first.  Than they added spells to make the list longer.  Now we got this longer list, but only maybe 4 or 5 of the spells in the entire list are useful.  The other spells serve no purpose, but to add to a list.  Now that is sad.

Magic should be on the list.  I don't care if this was a partial list because of its importance to be looked at and fixed it should have been shown as a priority.  A lot of people bought this game because of the magic element and in its current state it has no magic.  I cant even touch the game because I am so tired of whacking things with a piece of metal.  I want to blast the crap of things.  I want to have useful utility spells.  I want spells that will do cool stuff, but have severe or dramatic effects to me and all players.  Where are the global enchantments?  I want to play a mage type Sov from the start of the game and not have to wait to cast a spell besides imbue hero.

I cant believe someone actually posted that the magic system is fine the way it is.  Must be a straight whack a mole player.
You apparently are unaware of the meaning of the word "system" and the fact that it does not encompass the design of specific spells, which is where the main problem is, and which is the cause of every flaw your post deals with.

Insulting someone based on your own inability to read or understand is not really a great thing to go about doing.

Quoting ogredpowell, reply 34
Although I'm more of a MOM fan, I actually do LIKE the idea of wizards towers from AOW II and would like to see that idea reinstated (including ) and a spell points system.  However, with teh revamping of the magic system the points brought up for '2011' are more important.
I like the idea of wizard towers too, in theory. But AoW II's implementation ended up sticking your mage in one well defended city for the whole game, and I don't like that.

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

Sorry... I wasn't really thinking of cooldown like I can't cast that specific spell for x turns. I was thinking more of burnout/exhaustion. Like I just launched off this really awesome spell and I can't channel anymore magic for the next x turns, possibly even losing the ability to move or attack. I think that would make for some very interesting player choices. What if a strong tactical spell left your caster immobile and unable to counterattack for the remainder of the battle? Would you still use it?

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting HallowedBMyName, reply 35
Meh, I hate replying a long time later; most people have already responded with what I wanted to say. I'll add this:

-spells are weak (compare to any other fantasy strategy game that people consider "classic," and there's no comparison).

This is unrelated to the system. Barring a few specific exceptions, I agree with this statement.
-shards are now, with the new changes, almost an afterthought. They are completely unnecessary. You can get your mana with buildings, if necessary; they only provide mana ... very uninspired. I know this was changed in 1.1 but they should be more important/necessary to a good magic system instead of providing a pittance in mana.
I am pretty sure they still effect the spells of their relevant books. Of course, you can refrain from delving into those books if you are so inclined. In that case, you still get the mana boost which is not a minor thing at all.
-like some people mentioned, tactical magic is just not there. Why cast spells when you can just attack with melee? Right now there's no comparison. And not only damage-wise, but it seems to me that since the 1.1 patch where attacks are getting blocked left and right, magic seems to be getting blocked more than melee? That doesn't seem right.
This is not related to the system. Except maybe the magic getting blocked, I guess. I've not noticed that. A more specific method of resisting magic might not go amiss, but I wouldn't consider it to be ultimately necessary.
That's all I can think of, and some of this has already been mentioned. The only thing that stands out to me, really, is the spells. They are few, and pretty boring. If these were good and fun to use, then it would be different, and worth having the other problems. They could have been more "epic," but they looked very dumbed-down (raise land, lower land, heal spell that heals like 6 life (????), Regeneration that heals 2hp per turn (??)); kinda weak.
In other words, the only thing that really stands out to you is unrelated to the place where you asserted that the problem was. This is in keeping with my own perceptions; the spells could use a fair bit of work, but the system is essentially fine.

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting BernieTime, reply 36
Character Creation is currently meaningless.  You could start with any random hero and it doesn't matter one bit.   As your King/Queen levels nearly all points gets dumped into Intelligence.  If you desired to create a fire mage (for instance), it's sad when the only nodes you find are water.
This is contrary to my experience. It seems to me that there are two viable types of sovereign at this point: A garrisoning sovereign, who acquires traits that supply resources and buff his city, and maxes Charisma, and an Adventuring/conquest sovereign, who maximizes combat utility. Other sovereigns can be made that fit somewhere between these two extremes, but they are essentially the two things that matter in a sovereign at this point.

Intelligence is not significantly beneficial to either of these.

 

 

Also, sorry for the multiple sequential posts. I'm afraid the forum software tends to get a bit confused if you go sticking too many quotes in one post, especially when editing. I have no idea why.

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

Agree with the sovereign thing. You either make an early fighter, or you make one with high charisma and tech/arcane research. The rest is meaningless flavour.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 45

Quoting BernieTime, reply 36Character Creation is currently meaningless.  You could start with any random hero and it doesn't matter one bit.   As your King/Queen levels nearly all points gets dumped into Intelligence.  If you desired to create a fire mage (for instance), it's sad when the only nodes you find are water.

This is contrary to my experience. It seems to me that there are two viable types of sovereign at this point: A garrisoning sovereign, who acquires traits that supply resources and buff his city, and maxes Charisma, and an Adventuring/conquest sovereign, who maximizes combat utility. Other sovereigns can be made that fit somewhere between these two extremes, but they are essentially the two things that matter in a sovereign at this point.

Intelligence is not significantly beneficial to either of these.

High intelligence is needed in order to cast progressively higher level spells.  So you'll end up dumping your stats into Intelligence.  If there were a way to group spellcasters to cast a higher level spell (like a witches coven) going for a super-stat would be less of a requirement.

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Your sovereign can cast any spell regardless of intelligence. Only heroes have that requirement.

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

Re Magic.

I think some people are not understanding fully what a magic "system" is.  The magic system in Elemental is fine. It's the details that need to be improved and how it manifests itself in the game (tactical battles and such).  

I don't envision us doing away with the concept of mana, shards, etc.  We plan to make use of existing capabilities that we're not currently using (cool downs, cast times, etc.). 

Probably the biggest change we are thinking about is how you acquire spells (trying to move away from "researching" particular spells) but again, that's not a magic system. 

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

There is a problem that links a weakness in the magic system to a weakness in champion selection.

Global mana was a fantastic improvement, and I think one of the best things done for the game so far. However, stripping imbued champions of their individual mana pools, and giving them access to the sovereign's mana pool took away the individuality and specialisation of champions. This is because each caster is not limited by their own magical prowess (apart from INT for spell requirements), and can draw on as much power as the sovereign can.

Looking to MoM again for hero/champion inspiration, you see that the even magical heroes were different to each other. Besides looking different and having diverse strengths and weaknesses (implemented through stats and how they are affected by leveling), each spell-caster had access to their own set of spells (even some that the player did not possess). Plus they had cool names and titles, and some element of mystery about them.

In case you didn't notice, I hate horses so much that I will beat them long after they are dead. :P