Small things that Civ does well, and Elemental does bad

not a rant, but game suggestion thread

Many people have been focused on big things when looking what's wrong in Elemental. This time, I'll focus on small things that can make game annoying, and if fixed can make gameplay more fluent.

Usually in games like this, some things don't need reinventing the wheel, and and already established conventions are the way things are done. And for good reason.

Let's start with movement mechanics and anything related to that.
In Civ, every unit has Wait, Sentry and Fortify order.

Wait is something similar to Elemental TAB for cycling units, basically, you go to the next active unit without skipping turn for the current one.

Sentry is a way to get unit out of the cycling loop. It means don't bother with me anyone, and only make me active if something happens near me (like passing enemy unit).

Fortify exempt just giving defense bonus also means, I'm here to stay, don't cycle me ever, exempt if I get unfortified manually. It's also used as a way to park units in cities.

In Elemental there is guard duty which I guess is something that is supposed to be similar to sentry or fortify from Civ, but the big issue with it is that is does not remove unit from cycling loop. Every turn unit you don't want to move anymore will get cycled to, even if this order is active. It doesn't even switch to next unit after order is issued, you need to manually press TAB afterward. This is especially annoying for ships, when you want to "park them", and not do anything with them for some time. At least, land units can be added to cities, which will remove them from the unit cycling loop, but nothing similar exists for ships. Fortify order from elemental behaves exactly same as guard, so is no help there either.

Another thing to mention here is that point of unit cycling is to get to the units you want to move, not to those you don't want. So why being forced to cycle through Caravan every single turn in the game. You can't do anything with them, nor you want to do anything with them after have established routes. Just removing them from unit cycling loop with remove at least 50% of late game tedium (tip: make special caravan cycling button/key, if really needed, or better: make separate trading screen/table for that).

Another point I want to make is "go to" order. In games like Civ, after order is issued, next turn when that unit gets to act it moves immediately. In Elemental that is not true. In fact, you can still cycle true units that have go to orders, which kinda loses the point, since the point of go to is that unit moves on its own, as something that reduce micromanagement, when you don't want to get prompted every turn should you move it manually or not. Also, advantage of having it move immediately when its turn is, is that if any moment points are left, player is back in control and can spend them manually, or issue new go to order. In Elemental go to, on the other hand, it is done on the end turn only, and if destination is too close to spend all movement points, remaining ones will get lost.

Now, when are we at losing movement points, Elemental uses strange mechanic of auto-stacking units "on contact", without having any mechanic to unstack them when on same tile (or manually changing stack composition if there is more then 12 units in tile). What is really bad with this is that is also reduces movement points of units "on contact", to the lower value. So, if two units want to pass each other, and one has 4 movement and another 2, the moment the 2-move unit enters the tile of 4-movement units the other one will have its movement in turn reduced to 1 or 1.5 (1 if 4-move units stands at empty tile, 1.5 if it is on road tile). Often, when units enter same tile, you don't want them to stack, nor to one of them to lose movement points due to other. So stacking should be done explicitly, and not be automatic.

Something similar can be said when passing cities, usually you want to move between cities, not stay in them. So unit entering city should not "lose focus", and also not get its movement points reduced similar to the case above (when auto-joining stacks), at least not without explicit guard order or something.

There are some weird combos you can get here. Let's say there is city and two units that want to pass true it, one with 2 and one with 4 movement. The guy with 2 movement is two tiles away, so uses 1 point to get near city and another to enter. Now it has 0 movement points, and can exit the city (since it takes no movement). Now, all units in garrison have 0 movement points, due to that "auto-stacking stealing movement points" mechanic game uses. After this, if 4-move points enter the city, it will lose all movement points, since defenders have 0 movement points, and same stacking mechanic is applied. So the only optimal way to go through the city is to eject defenders to some third tile, move 2-move units in and out, and them 4-move units in-and out, and then bring back defenders. Very annoying thing to do manually. And counter-intuitive.


Ok, that's all from me now. I hope I made some good points. In conclusion, I'll say this again: this is not first land 4X game, and there is no need to reinvent the wheel for some basic stuff. And for good reason. Fixing things like these could make game much more fluent, and remove most of the tedium from late game.

 

P.S.

I just remembered that enemy caravans can block the roads for your troops. When not in war they should really be able to share same tile as your own units, so they don't block road choke-points, which is very annoying. When war starts, if sharing tile is an issue, just auto-eject them to nearest unoccupied space.

29,731 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top

To be honest, apart from the points you suggested, the entire city management system would be better if it was like Civ's. I don't support copying other games, but the current system is atrocious.

Reply #5 Top

I notice Elemental has the similar unit auto selection glitches to Galactic Civilizations 2.  Shouldn't be a surprise, I guess.  Units with orders -- like move, guard or fortify -- definitely should not be in the idle queue for tab.  The "Autoturn" is hosed, I absolutely recommend everyone turn off the "Autoturn" because it'll snub units and cities that need orders. :/

Reply #6 Top

Love Elemental, don't want to change it into Civ by any means but simple stuff like this would improve basic turn to turn mechanics so much.

 

k1

Reply #7 Top

Yeah the unit cycling stuff was driving me insane.

Reply #8 Top

Everyone already knows about the non-existing AI - like my last game my neighbour wanted tribute and when refused declared war only to start to spammming my territory with lone Pioneers. I made a stack of lowly militia and went to his border towns just to find out they were left with a single wimpy hero as defender.

But now to the very important suggestion - make a message to pop when an enemy/neutral/bandits/mobs enter my territory. With the messed look of the towns it is usually next to impossible to notice units which stay inside the town borders. I several times noticed brigands inside my towns only when i zoomed to cloth map.

And the other no-brainers:
- double click on any unit to select the whole stack - important in towns
- Ctrl-# to assign numbers on armies - important when in towns

Reply #9 Top

I want to have the ability to expell unit out of my cities.  How about, before a foreign caravan enters my city a window pops up and asks if I permit this.  Upon entering the city, the caravan unit disappears and a trade route is made.  Only time a foreign unit can enter the city is during war.

Reply #11 Top

Oh god yes, agreed with everything. It may not seem like a big deal, having to cycle past a unit that you don't want to give orders to (caravans on trade routes, units assigned to guard, units that already have prior move orders they haven't carried out yet, etc.) - but when you do this for 5 or 10 units every single turn, for a hundred or so turns, the frustration builds up and detracts from that magic "just one more turn.." feeling that drives TBS games. After a while, instead of wishing for one more turn, I just want a break from the repetitive tedium of fighting through the interface to find the units I need to give orders to.

Civ4 does has a perfect way of dealing with this - smooth and fluid, it directs you exactly where you need to go and skips over the rest, no unnecessary actions. As much as I don't want Elemental to emulate Civ in any of the big ways, you don't have to reinvent the wheel in this one small (but cumulatively frustrating) game mechanic.

By the way, it also helps in Civ that you can queue up future buildings/units at no cost until they start building. Elemental penalizes you for this by costing resources in advance for every building/unit you queue up, encouraging you to wait until the current building is finished, which adds so much to the micromanagement.

Reply #12 Top

By the way, it also helps in Civ that you can queue up future buildings/units at no cost until they start building. Elemental penalizes you for this by costing resources in advance for every building/unit you queue up, encouraging you to wait until the current building is finished, which adds so much to the micromanagement.

-Excellent point, hadn't really thought about it. CIV required you to have the resource, no quantity was involved, so not quite the same, but I agree. You shouldn't be "charged" the resource cost until the unit actually starts production. In fact it should pulled incrementally from the pool as the unit builds, turn by turn (ideally, but would be complex to implement).

-This reminds me of something else, the city improvements that increase the speed at which unitsare produced, I found these to be wasteful, as they require gold upkeep. In the games I've played, being able to build something 25% faster or not didnt really have a impact. I found myself not building these structures at all, to save the gold upkeep cost. 

-Something else I would like to see is the ability to see the contents of an enemy stack, at the cloth map level. Excuse me if this is already in, but I haven't found it.

Excuse the edits. The block quote has gone insane!

Reply #13 Top

Totally agree with the original post.  Just basic turn mechanics need to be improved in this way.  So frustrating to have to tab thru units I wanted fortified or sentried...I put them that way so I *don't* have to deal with them anymore.  I sentry a guy on a mountain pass and only want to deal with him if an opponent passes near.

Hopefully things like this will make it into the upcoming UI updates.

Reply #14 Top

Good observation and worthy suggestions. I have just one seemingly minor, yet important proposition.

Another point I want to make is "go to" order. In games like Civ, after order is issued, next turn when that unit gets to act it moves immediately.

In my opinion, "go to" units should move at the end of a turn, and not immediately when they are able to. I believe that games from "Total War" series do have it just right, for example.

Typical situation (had this just a few moments ago in MoM): my army goes into enemy direction via "go to" (not really a smart move, but I wasn't at war when I issued that order, and it wasn't my main force anyway), while suddenly enemy minor yet obnoxious force appears in range. I'd been happy to intercept that force with my army, but it just marched on, completely oblivious to passing foes. And after it spent its' movement points, it's been too late to return and pursue, because both armies had equal overland speed.

If, instead, this suggested feature of "go to at the end of the turn" was enabled, I could simply temporarily change path of my army, crush enemy opposition and merrily continue.

Reply #15 Top

Very good observations, I agree to all of this. Other things i find annoying and would be easy to fix are :

1. Cannot mass select units. ( like double click on a unit to select all ) or maybe shift click two units to select em and all in between.

2. Cannot speed up combat animation, or did not find how to yet. (  Those battles can get long )

3. When shopping equipement for you heroes. Would be nice to have your current equipement screen to compare values and also equip/unequip stuff at the same time. 

4. Cannot edit building queue , ( like stop making that and only finish it after this new priority is done) As it is now you need to cancel alll the builds and start over...

I think this game has lot of potential but i find it has too many annoyances at this time.  I hope stardock fixes this game up, i bought almsot all their games and i find they are all brilliant, would hate this game to be the first stardock title i dont like. I  find it barely playable at this time.  

Reply #16 Top

Maybe I should make a thread about "The small thigns Elemental does well that Civ does bad..

Both games have there positives and negatives.

I do agree with alot that you said, but at the same time I can name things that I like better in Elemental then I do in Civ, it goes both ways.
To me Civ and ELemental are both fantastic games... Civ is more polished, while Elemental has custimization that is very well done and more ambitious.

in the end though, both series give me a very addicting feeling when I play them, both game series rule (:

Def a good thread though, props.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting katalist, reply 16
Maybe I should make a thread about "The small thigns Elemental does well that Civ does bad..

Both games have there positives and negatives.

I do agree with alot that you said, but at the same time I can name things that I like better in Elemental then I do in Civ, it goes both ways.
To me Civ and ELemental are both fantastic games... Civ is more polished, while Elemental has custimization that is very well done and more ambitious.

in the end though, both series give me a very addicting feeling when I play them, both game series rule (:

Def a good thread though, props.

Go ahead, I'd like to see that list.

 

As for customization, you do realize, that Civ4 opened up parts of it's source code to modders, right? I mean, Elemental doesn't come even close to what you can mod in Civ4, if you want to.