In Charon's mind:

"You MUST like EVERY indie film that I like, any deviation from my opinions makes you an uncultured Michael Bay fan"

What elitists like you fail to understand is that it's perfectly possible and reasonable to like both art house indie films AND popcorn flicks. Everything that you are saying on these forums makes you appear pretentious, not cultured. 

Hah, first off, telling someone what their attitude should or should not be, is juvenile, which you apologized for but you negated your apology by starting off being a hypocrite with the first comment in your reply. The reason why I said "shutup" was to bring to the light the fact that you were goading me, an intent which you picked up on but failed to realize. Exaggerating a situation and putting words in my mouth is also juvenile as I never once said "hooray, hooray, hooray" Saying someone is whining, however, is not an uncreative and childish way to write off someone's criticism. Did you even read what I was commenting to? Or did you just see "whine" and go into a rage? The comment I was commenting about was nothing more than the same nonsense I have seen in other threads which does nothing to help the situation, it only adds on to the negativity already present which is not needed. Saying something is wrong and they should have done it "this way" as an idea is something useful. Saying "This game had a good release" "This game had no problems at launch" and on and on, offers nothing to the conversation that we do not already know. If you can't comprehend this than I do not know what else to say to you. If you would like to come into the chat room we can discuss it further. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder which I have noticed in other threads. I haven't read all the threads you have posted in obviously but the ones I have read you have basically offered nothing to the conversations, just complaints with no relevant information. Perhaps you enjoy feeding on negativity but I would think most people do not.

it's not really an hooray hooray attitude... it's just a...

i said in another topic that maybe the game is just a skeleton on we and developer can build a lot in future... it is so moddable and less hardcoded that maybe the bug spreaded too much... but if it's like i think it's solvable... :s

I'm not going to read this reply.  I don't believe in engaging in a flame war to gratify myself, and hopefully you don't either.  I editted my prior post while you were typing a reply.  Please scroll back, read it, and hopefully we can just move on. 

Alright alright, I am sorry too, I just woke up so i'm grouchy. Seriously though, I just want to make the game better and I just hope people will help in that, rather than complaining about how another game was released better or how they are so angry because they feel cheated. If you are angry, it is understandable, but than just get a refund or if you want to help make the game better so you don't feel cheated than do that.

Okay, thanks Rainz.  Yeah, I agree there is plenty of just negativity floating around here.  I don't want a refund because I still believe in Stardock and the company.  I'm looking forward very much to modding the game, and I've always been active on the "ideas" thread.  I think right now we're seeing two simultaneous debates going on that are easily mired together.  There is the debate that Stardock is a great company that had some difficulty variables to deal with.  In this regard, I completely that a rough start is forgiveable.  And then there is the other debate: that some of Stardock's errors must be recognized by themselves before they can successfully move on.  If they are vocal about admitting their mistakes in chat, then that is very encouraging and I'll refashion my feedback on the forums.  I don't participate in the chat rooms as a matter of preference  I like to type my ideas or comments in forum because, if the dev team doesn't want to read them, they can just go ahead and skip them.

Anyway, glad that we cleared this up. 

EVERYTHING WILL GO WELL that's the spirit

LET'S improve the whole thing to make this a legendary game

Karma points for both of you working this out.  If both camps just got together and discussed things constructively, Elemental would improve more rapidly, and I think we all want that.

I can say this much, the devs on several occasions have made it known in chat they are not happy with the game as is, GreenReaper, one of the devs just said this last night actually. Cari_elf has also told me that they are working on combat and magic already to make them better and yesterday the devs were testing what I think was multiplayer features ( I kept noticing they were coming and going in chat from testing the game and then got a confirm from one of the dev's comments heh) I dont know if it was multiplayer they were testing, but I think it was because it was a few of them.

Wooooord

That's the way.

Personally i'm enjoying the game even in the state it's in (until it crashes) but if anything that just shows the potential of the game. I'm enjoying the premise and it's still in an unbalanced and bug riddled mess. BUT i dont care, it kills time in an entertaining way.

Finally, remembered my password. 

I've been a long time Stardock fan (I believe my Member Number will bear that out), but I haven't posted in a long time. 

I only want to add or say a few things: for a completely "broken" and "unplayable" game, I've certainly spent so much time playing it that I haven't bothered to post about it.  I have a feeling that's true for more people than Stardock gets credit for at the moment.  This happens EVERY TIME a game is released by anybody.  There's a vocal minority of people who complain about this or that, there's an even smaller minority who provide useful feedback, and there's a lot of people scratching their heads saying, "Well, I'm reading about all these horrible bugs, but I'm still having fun!"

I don't doubt that there are many bugs in the game and the "balance" could be better (right now, balance is an ethereal concept since MP hasn't been activated--play the game responsibly and choose not to equip yourself with a huge number of rings, which is basically cheating, whether the game lets you do it or not).  But Stardock will continue to make improvements long after other studios have moved on.  My experience since I bought the first modern version of GalCiv waaaay back probably 7-8 years ago has been nothing but positive with Stardock games. 

EWOM isn't perfect, but it's actually better than GalCiv2 was at release.  GalCiv2 is one of the best TBS games of all time and I expect EWOM to make an impact as well. 

As far as the "paying for an unfinished game" complaint goes, consider this: how often have you purchased a game that stunk and had no recourse whatsoever and the developers never once patched it?  If you've been playing games for a while, chances are this is a fairly large number.  The game (especially as of the Day 0 patch) was and is plenty playable. 

I pre-ordered this game with high hopes and trust in stardock.  This game has been a monumental dissapointment.  Maybe I'll install it again in a few months - a year or 2 from now and see how the changes were made.  Thank god Civ 5 is due out soon.  You guys need to take more time developing and be willing to go back to scratch if its not shaping up into a quality title.  I'm definately more wary of stardock as a consumer.

A lot of the blame can be laid upon the fanboys during beta.. instead of being bluntly honest about the quality of this game most just wanted to suck up to the people with a stardock logo in their avatar.  Your blind loyalty really paid off.. this game had potential.

For the kind of balance problems we're talking about, you don't need multiplayer to see it. Even if you ignore the easiest targets like shards not working and the silliness with rings, the whole damage system works badly once the numbers scale up. A stack of guys with Lord Maces will destroy anything else.

(And while we're on the subject, multiplayer not being up isn't exactly a good thing either. I've only ever bought two games that had multiplayer where it wasn't playable for a week after release, and the other one is Demigod.)

The problem is that I don't tend to buy anything from those companies again. Once you get a reputation for putting out bad releases, it's very hard to get out from under that reputation.  Fans of Stardock should be saying "hey guys we love you, but for the love of god don't put out something that is so unpolished at release for a third time!"

The biggest problems are gameplay stuff in late game, and that never really happened in beta. The beta schedule was big on tech testing, but never had a real "gameplay beta" phase. That's not the fault of the beta testers.

As someone who have been in the "Elemental" boat since at least Beta 1, my analysis is that Stardock reached the limit of its capabilities versus their ambitions with this game. All the "new stuffs" for this new Intellectual Property were simply to much for Stardock to swallow in one big gulp. I was certain that the Day 0 release would be relatively playable but plainly off the mark compared to many players expectations which is why i'm not surprised of the complains.

The good news is that they will make the effort to reach that mark but they can't do it without constructive criticisms and feedbacks. Please correct me i'm wrong but i remember that something like 30% of the game budget would be for after the game release.

Certainly this game need work but still it is salvageable and will be salvaged because those devs have put much on their pride on it to not fight back.

While I agree with a lot of what the OP says, unfortunately I can already tell you Brad won't agree with any of it. According to him the community Always says a game ISN'T ready, and Stardock always says a game IS ready. In Elemental's case Stardock got kinda screwed over with the release windows available to them. They didn't launch early because they needed the money. They released early because they had other deals in the works and pushing the release back until Feb of next year would have cost them a lot on those other deals they already had worked out (making boxes, printing disks, etc etc).

Brad's NEVER going to agree with the community when they say something isn't ready. As a developer he see's Impulse as the ultimate "Fix anything Later" tool and that's a very BAD view to have. While it's true Impulse is great for delivering updates, it's VERY VERY BAD for business when you have the view that "We can patch in fixes at a later date", because by then it's too late to fix the damage that's been done in the eyes of the gaming public. While the game can always be fixed and patched later, winning over the mind and opinion of someone who thinks the game sucks because they already tried it once and didn't like it is often something that CAN'T be fixed later. Once a gamer tries something and doesn't like it they almost NEVER go back and try it again later. I know that is a FACT from having over 20 years experience as a gamer myself and also having quite a few years of experience working in the industry its-self.

In Elemental's case Stardock really should have bit the bullet and pushed it back until Feb until all these bugs and balance issues were squashed. I honestly don't think any pre-planning was done at all in regards to balance and that can pretty much be proven by seeing Brad's views as a game developer. Brad is concerned with getting engine mechanics working properly, he doesn't care how much damage a Fireball does or how much Strength a Demon has because to him that is seen as "content fluff" that can be tweaked later if needed. While that may be true from a Developer Viewpoint, that is decidedly NOT TRUE from a Gamer's Viewpoint. From a Gamer's perspective that "content fluff" IS THE GAME. If it's not balanced and fun then the game will bomb, plain and simple, and he just doesn't see that and most likely never will (thanks Impulse...). This is WHY digital delivery systems aren't good for gaming. They give developers TOO MUCH LEEWAY when it comes to patching up a broken game and this is what allows so many developers get away with putting out a crap game thinking they can fix it later after they rake in the money. Stardock doesn't need to "rake in the money" to keep a game going or in development because they make their money from Windows Applications and Customization. Not to mention Brad could always dig into some of those millionaire bucks if he needed to too keep the game in development until it's Actually Ready.

Maybe now with the damage that's been done to Stardock's reputation he will finally see that when the community says something isn't ready....maybe it's actually NOT READY *GASP*

Having said that, I STILL think Elemental is a AWESOME and FUN game. I'm very glad I have it now and didn't have to wait until Feb 2011 to get my hands on it. Next time though Stardock needs to have all that "Content Fluff" hammered out on paper in the Design Phase While the Engine is being made. That's the way EVERY company I've ever worked for has done things in the past. Game content is NOT FLUFF that can be balanced and tweaked later. It HAS TO BE DONE BEFORE LAUNCH. Or things like this happen and people lose faith in Stardock's ability to make a fun and balanced game-play experience.

Wow Raven, coming down a little harsh on Frogboy aren't you?

Not that I dissagree that the game is unfinished, quite the contrary. I haven't started the game since the fist day I was able to play it. I think I might need to force myself to start it and find the FUN that you and other people are talking about.

Nevertheless, we all know Brad is a good guy, and a gamer deep down inside. Maybe after he comes back from his holiday, and had some time to actually play the game, he'll have changed his mind about some of this stuff. Maybe he won't. But still, putting words into his mouth, especially when they sound so negative is just bad form, at least IMHO. (Not trying to pick a fight here or anything, I enjoy reading your posts even if I don't agree with you all the time )

Couldn't agree more. Very little gameplay balancing appears to have happened which presumably reflects the very low importance that Stardock (and by that I mean Brad) put upon it... and yet to the paying customer, particularly for a strategy game, gameplay balance and having interesting choices and trade offs is one of the critical requirements.

It strikes me that what is required is several large spreadsheets of the various game data along with formula to balance them out mathematically, followed up by in depth play testing to check that what seems balanced mathemetically actually feels that way when played. I'll eat my hat if this has happened at more than an extremely rudimentary level.

Fortunately it is still possible. They aren't going to be able to pick up most of the potential customers they have lost from this release but they can fix it so that those who have already bought it are happy and maybe maintain steady ongoing sales.

Hmm? No, no, not at all. Brad is a Great guy and one of the hardest working Dev's in the business, bar none. I don't know any other Dev, much less a CEO of a multinational corporation, that would take the time out of his busy schedule to sit down and talk with people like he does. I was just stressing some of his business views. I've said in a lot of other posts Stardock kinda got screwed on this one. Brad should of had a lot more time to work on the AI and stuff and it's not really his fault he didn't. He did the best he could in a short amount of time and did a damn good job with it. Sometimes I get a little..hmm, "vocal" or "dramatic" when typing out replies so my posts can come off a little harsher than they mean to.

I love the hell out of Elemental and for the first time since like, X-Com, I kinda consider my-self to be a "fanboy" of something, and that's very Very Rare. Elemental is going to be THE Fantasy Strategy game of our generation when all is said and done. It's well on it's way there now. I can't wait to see what the future brings from Brad and the Team not to mention all the Mods we modders have in the works.

I didn't mean my reply there to sound bad in any way, I was just giving my honest opinion, which is still a good opinion (at least I think so anyway).

I wouldn't go as far to say it wasn't important to them. I know it WAS VERY Important to them actually. Elemental is their "baby", just as it's all of our's baby who's put so much into the game over the last two years. Brad see's things as a programmer and a developer though, and has to take a step back to see things from a "gamers" perspective some times, even he freely admits that, and that's not a bad thing. If he didn't think that GalCiv 2 wouldn't have the incredible depth and AI that it has now. GalCiv 2 is my Favorite space/strat game. Even surpassing MoO2 in it's awesomeness. Like I said it was obvious they got kinda screwed on the release window too. I think if they would of had the extra 6 months they thought they were going to have then none of this hoopla over the game would have happened at all and launch would have gone a lot smoother without the drama involved.

With Brad's latest post, I think he's learned that's not always the case.  Yes, I do agree with you that they were screwed on the release timing.  That said, I think if given the choice between rushing and delaying, you always choose the delay.  Now if I was seventy and had six months to live, I'd be pissed  .  The boxes could have sat in a warehouse, the disks didn't need to be pressed until three weeks prior- so that's a non-issue also.  A rushed game is forever rushed, a great game later is still great.  A game that is rushed but becomes great- those get mixed legacies.  Ultimately though, "it is what it is", and Stardock is going to do a damn good job of making some damn good lemonade out of lemons.  That's the benefit of Stardock's support- and why is it a good business practice- imagine if some other company had put a game like Elemental out at launch in this state, without the reputation Stardock has for improving things post-release.  There would be rioting in their forums- nothing like this.  You see the rioting on other sites that aren't familiar with Stardock.  In the age of the Steam Defense Force, Stardock isn't that well known due to their games not being on Steam.  This is another reason why I'm upset some- Elemental's flawed launch hurts Impulse, which I prefer to Steam, even more now after seeing how Impulse integrates into Elemental.

I don't think the criticism of Impulse is fair.  From what I have seen, the integration of Impulse into Elemental, and the things that are being done, is really, REALLY well done.  It may actually be the strongest part of the game so far- though more mod content is needed, not just maps.   You're right that the state of PC gaming has changed- while DD is great, it does have some side effects- and the "fix it later" mentality is one of those.

I'll say this- I am confident that (assuming GalCiv 3 is next, which it should be now if it wasn't planned that way- GalCiv is the flagship franchise of Stardock, and a good Galciv will undo all reputation damage if done right at launch) GC3 will not repeat the mistakes of the past.  Stardock learns from their mistakes.

From reading Brad's latest post, it seems to me that he doesn't think they did a thing wrong, and everything is proceeding fine, no reputation damage done. The release date was fine, and the game was excellent after the day-0 patch. They will continue to work on it until a larger majority thinks the game is fantastic. Nothing is different from any other release.