Sh!t Happens

from Elemental Forums

Some say that Elementals start was a little rocky.  Stuff happens. <shrug> It is an ambitious project with many complicated parts.  On the whole, Elementals launch is an ever growing success. The parts that need refinement are being addressed in an especially timely manner.  Hats off to the Elemental crew for their dedication to the game and its fans.  They keep us updated.  They dialogue with us about the game.  They work extended hours to provide fixes ASAP.  They have an established history for perfecting their games long past release.  What more can you ask for?   

 

As we speak, I'm installing a new drain field for my parents septic tank.  I had an idea for how long it would take.  It's a big project involving the hand digging of ~ 200 feet of trench and installing 2 dump truck loads (24 yards) of rock - one wheel barrow load at a time.  I'm well versed to these labors and had an informed idea of the work and time involved.  But I didn't expect it would take me this long.  I encountered a few unexpected complications.  Foremost among these was a Massive rock, a buried electrical main intersecting all three of the leech fields, and precautions against rain (can't let the rain saturate an exposed drain field).  Like Stardock, I had a plan and worked hard to achieve the expected results within the estimated time frame.  However, despite our best efforts, shit happened.  But we drive on to complete the task regardless of the obstacles.  I won't leave my parents up shit creek without a drain field.   Nor will Stardock hang the players of Elemental out to dry.  Don't worry, Stardock will see this thing through.

 

One shovelful/code at a time we are doing our best to get the job done.  The job will get done!  Give the Stardockians a break.  They are people to.  They are working hard.  Things have come which has made their job more difficult, but they press on.  They have already delivered an impressive product which is improved upon daily.  It's all gonna work out proper. 

elemental
37,177 views 35 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

/seconded

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

Yep stuff happens.  The fail is that they released the game before the job was finished.  The paid beta test has been extended without letting unsuspecting people know it is still in beta.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

It's not like this was in any way a force majeur event. They knew very well what they were releasing. They did not indicate in any way in advance what we should expect.  That is why trust is running very low at the moment. Had an earthquake struk and obliterated their servers or something I don't think many peple would have complained if progress was not what we expected. But this? 

Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top

Wow dude, 24 yards of rock a wheelbarrel full at a time??!!

I had 12 yards of fill dirt delivered in the spring raise the ground elevation around my basement foundation.  I'm still spending hours on my weekends and evenings moving dirt, 4 months later!!  You are a glutton for punishment.  My hats off to you.

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting the, reply 3
It's not like this was in any way a force majeur event. They knew very well what they were releasing. They did not indicate in any way in advance what we should expect.  That is why trust is running very low at the moment. Had an earthquake struk and obliterated their servers or something I don't think many peple would have complained if progress was not what we expected. But this? 

Except it is forced, they set up the release date far in advance and don't really have the power of one of the larger companies to delay it. In order to keep the shelf space they paid to reserve it had to be released. In any case the game is still quite fun to play. If there was anyone who had a right to complain it'd be the ATI/64Bit users experiencing all kinds of hell right now. I happen to be one of those people. Despite this I've still spent every night since release playing elemental, even took a day off work to do so.

I spend that time with the IRC chat window open, in that chat I've never seen less than 5 stardock employees, usually 1-2 of which are answering questions and getting information about little bugs from the players. They are there when I go to work and when I go to bed, working ridiculous hours to take care of issues people are having. They have released a combination of 4-5 patches and hotfixes since the early release on Sunday (which they did not have to do at all).

Are there things I'd like to see changed? Sure. I'd like to see a lot more depth in the combat system. I'd like to see larger army sizes and tactical battle maps. I'd like to see more depth to the champion and dynasty system. The AI could definitely use some work. However, as I said before, I'm still enjoying the hell out of my time with the game and based on the dedication of this team so far and the fact that they are dealing directly with the customers leads me to believe that any issues I'm having currently will be taken care of anyway. Other minor things I can mod myself because of a decision they made to make the game so easy to mod.

They've put together a great product, it's a little rough around the edges but they're clearly dedicated to polishing it and making it something that will earn a permanent place on my PC. If you're really so upset by the release, get your refund and move on. Those of us enjoying the product will stay here and continue to help shape it into an even greater game than it is currently.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 5



Quoting the Gorgon,
reply 3
It's not like this was in any way a force majeur event. They knew very well what they were releasing. They did not indicate in any way in advance what we should expect.  That is why trust is running very low at the moment. Had an earthquake struk and obliterated their servers or something I don't think many peple would have complained if progress was not what we expected. But this? 


Except it is forced, they set up the release date far in advance and don't really have the power of one of the larger companies to delay it. In order to keep the shelf space they paid to reserve it had to be released. In any case the game is still quite fun to play. If there was anyone who had a right to complain it'd be the ATI/64Bit users experiencing all kinds of hell right now. I happen to be one of those people. Despite this I've still spent every night since release playing elemental, even took a day off work to do so.

I spend that time with the IRC chat window open, in that chat I've never seen less than 5 stardock employees, usually 1-2 of which are answering questions and getting information about little bugs from the players. They are there when I go to work and when I go to bed, working ridiculous hours to take care of issues people are having. They have released a combination of 4-5 patches and hotfixes since the early release on Sunday (which they did not have to do at all).

Are there things I'd like to see changed? Sure. I'd like to see a lot more depth in the combat system. I'd like to see larger army sizes and tactical battle maps. I'd like to see more depth to the champion and dynasty system. The AI could definitely use some work. However, as I said before, I'm still enjoying the hell out of my time with the game and based on the dedication of this team so far and the fact that they are dealing directly with the customers leads me to believe that any issues I'm having currently will be taken care of anyway. Other minor things I can mod myself because of a decision they made to make the game so easy to mod.

They've put together a great product, it's a little rough around the edges but they're clearly dedicated to polishing it and making it something that will earn a permanent place on my PC. If you're really so upset by the release, get your refund and move on. Those of us enjoying the product will stay here and continue to help shape it into an even greater game than it is currently.

Agreed!!! The support Stardock is providing is far superior to what most companies would provide at this point. You have to remember that there are far more people that will come to a forum to complain than to give praise. so when you see the people having issues posting here think of the thousands that are playing and having a great time (myself included). So to expect a company to push back a release date when the game is very fun (balance issues aside. ALL new games need to tweek that after release) and playable by a vast, vsat, vast majority is not realistic. 

Gorgon is one having issues and he still appreciates the game and is working it through. He also brought up a good point in the reserving of shelf space, just another of many aspects that go into a release. I hate to say it but the Giant of TBS (CIV) is releasing CIV5 in a few weeks. What would happen to Elemental if it came out 2 weeks after that and all the TBS gamers were wrapped up in the new civ?

So this is a great game, playable buy a vast percentage, a few issues??? yes, but still a great and valdi release!!!

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I find amusing how many people, at the release of each game, complain about they paid for beta test at release. At this point, one would think that only idiots, ignorants or daredevils would dare to buy in release day (or preorder/prebuy). If at least those idiots, ignorants and daredevils where to assume their responsability for their decission...

And I can understand that people that don't know Stardock (especially if they believe some propaganda by some) have trouble understanding how they work and that even a bad release is not necessarily an omen about the end of the world. I won't understand those autodeclared Stardock fans that have suddenly lose faith though. Maybe Stardock has suddenly turned into EA and I didn't notice? Or in Activision? Or Jowood?

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting ozzlok, reply 6

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 5


Quoting the Gorgon,
reply 3
It's not like this was in any way a force majeur event. They knew very well what they were releasing. They did not indicate in any way in advance what we should expect.  That is why trust is running very low at the moment. Had an earthquake struk and obliterated their servers or something I don't think many peple would have complained if progress was not what we expected. But this? 


Except it is forced, they set up the release date far in advance and don't really have the power of one of the larger companies to delay it. In order to keep the shelf space they paid to reserve it had to be released. In any case the game is still quite fun to play. If there was anyone who had a right to complain it'd be the ATI/64Bit users experiencing all kinds of hell right now. I happen to be one of those people. Despite this I've still spent every night since release playing elemental, even took a day off work to do so.

I spend that time with the IRC chat window open, in that chat I've never seen less than 5 stardock employees, usually 1-2 of which are answering questions and getting information about little bugs from the players. They are there when I go to work and when I go to bed, working ridiculous hours to take care of issues people are having. They have released a combination of 4-5 patches and hotfixes since the early release on Sunday (which they did not have to do at all).

Are there things I'd like to see changed? Sure. I'd like to see a lot more depth in the combat system. I'd like to see larger army sizes and tactical battle maps. I'd like to see more depth to the champion and dynasty system. The AI could definitely use some work. However, as I said before, I'm still enjoying the hell out of my time with the game and based on the dedication of this team so far and the fact that they are dealing directly with the customers leads me to believe that any issues I'm having currently will be taken care of anyway. Other minor things I can mod myself because of a decision they made to make the game so easy to mod.

They've put together a great product, it's a little rough around the edges but they're clearly dedicated to polishing it and making it something that will earn a permanent place on my PC. If you're really so upset by the release, get your refund and move on. Those of us enjoying the product will stay here and continue to help shape it into an even greater game than it is currently.

Agreed!!! The support Stardock is providing is far superior to what most companies would provide at this point. You have to remember that there are far more people that will come to a forum to complain than to give praise. so when you see the people having issues posting here think of the thousands that are playing and having a great time (myself included). So to expect a company to push back a release date when the game is very fun (balance issues aside. ALL new games need to tweek that after release) and playable by a vast, vsat, vast majority is not realistic. 

Gorgon is one having issues and he still appreciates the game and is working it through. He also brought up a good point in the reserving of shelf space, just another of many aspects that go into a release. I hate to say it but the Giant of TBS (CIV) is releasing CIV5 in a few weeks. What would happen to Elemental if it came out 2 weeks after that and all the TBS gamers were wrapped up in the new civ?

So this is a great game, playable buy a vast percentage, a few issues??? yes, but still a great and valdi release!!!

 

 

That wasn't gorgon it was me -_-

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm the brick in the first picture

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

@ Slainangel: I wouldn't say forced, if you followed the development you know they chose between now and early next year. Like you I love the dedication shown by the SD team. I love their stand on long-term support. But this is also a private company selling a game for 50 bucks to real paying people. Actually, there are a lot of dedicated people out there with great ideas, not just at SD. So when you launch a project you must accept to be evaluated based on the results, not on your good intentions. Look around on the comments on the forum (basic game mechanisms like magic and tactical combat all up in the air, and no balance). If the game is "great" like this, what would it take to say the release was "problematic"? ... Anyway, why go on discussing what's a fact, it is like it is, now we just have to deal with it and can hopefully develop it for the better. But no, it was not something that "happened" to SD or the game. It was handled this way.   

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting the, reply 10
@ Slainangel: I wouldn't say forced, if you followed the development you know they chose between now and early next year. Like you I love the dedication shown by the SD team. I love their stand on long-term support. But this is also a private company selling a game for 50 bucks to real paying people. Actually, there are a lot of dedicated people out there with great ideas, not just at SD. So when you launch a project you must accept to be evaluated based on the results, not on your good intentions. Look around on the comments on the forum (basic game mechanisms like magic and tactical combat all up in the air, and no balance). If the game is "great" like this, what would it take to say the release was "problematic"? ... Anyway, why go on discussing what's a fact, it is like it is, now we just have to deal with it and can hopefully develop it for the better. But no, it was not something that "happened" to SD or the game. It was handled this way.   


The point was WHEN they chose it. The date was set far in advance because the timeline they devised said the game would be prepared by then. For the most part it was. The point of the post the OP made was that shit happens. Unforseen problems, bugs and driver conflicts over a massive possible amount of system combinations, try as you might you cannot prepare for every scenario. Despite the issues the game has it is still fun to play and a complete product, one which they work long hours on daily to improve. They set the date far in advance and it could not be changed, that's all there is to it. Sometimes things don't work out exactly as planned.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Indeed, Shit happens and will be taken care of. I believe in Stardock. Of course it helps that I dont have much time to play right now anyway, so pretty much each time I get to my PC there is an update waiting.

Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 7
I find amusing how many people, at the release of each game, complain about they paid for beta test at release. At this point, one would think that only idiots, ignorants or daredevils would dare to buy in release day (or preorder/prebuy). If at least those idiots, ignorants and daredevils where to assume their responsability for their decission...

And I can understand that people that don't know Stardock (especially if they believe some propaganda by some) have trouble understanding how they work and that even a bad release is not necessarily an omen about the end of the world. I won't understand those autodeclared Stardock fans that have suddenly lose faith though. Maybe Stardock has suddenly turned into EA and I didn't notice? Or in Activision? Or Jowood?

I think most people in this day and age can expect a relatively polished game at release, so I can understand how people can be more than a little disappointed. I don't particularly mind buying a game that's still in Beta (I did that with elemental, afterall), but I fully expect other people would.

Arguing that someone has to be an idiot, ignorant or daredevil to expect a game to be released when it's been at least a little polished is a pretty shallow and weak assumption.

I understand and encourage your support of this game, but get some perspective.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

If you're going with the whole wall building analogy, most contractors don't get paid until the wall is finished  :rolleyes:  

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

k1   for septic system construction pictures in a thread about video games.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 8



Quoting ozzlok,
reply 6

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 5


Quoting the Gorgon,
reply 3
It's not like this was in any way a force majeur event. They knew very well what they were releasing. They did not indicate in any way in advance what we should expect.  That is why trust is running very low at the moment. Had an earthquake struk and obliterated their servers or something I don't think many peple would have complained if progress was not what we expected. But this? 


Except it is forced, they set up the release date far in advance and don't really have the power of one of the larger companies to delay it. In order to keep the shelf space they paid to reserve it had to be released. In any case the game is still quite fun to play. If there was anyone who had a right to complain it'd be the ATI/64Bit users experiencing all kinds of hell right now. I happen to be one of those people. Despite this I've still spent every night since release playing elemental, even took a day off work to do so.

I spend that time with the IRC chat window open, in that chat I've never seen less than 5 stardock employees, usually 1-2 of which are answering questions and getting information about little bugs from the players. They are there when I go to work and when I go to bed, working ridiculous hours to take care of issues people are having. They have released a combination of 4-5 patches and hotfixes since the early release on Sunday (which they did not have to do at all).

Are there things I'd like to see changed? Sure. I'd like to see a lot more depth in the combat system. I'd like to see larger army sizes and tactical battle maps. I'd like to see more depth to the champion and dynasty system. The AI could definitely use some work. However, as I said before, I'm still enjoying the hell out of my time with the game and based on the dedication of this team so far and the fact that they are dealing directly with the customers leads me to believe that any issues I'm having currently will be taken care of anyway. Other minor things I can mod myself because of a decision they made to make the game so easy to mod.

They've put together a great product, it's a little rough around the edges but they're clearly dedicated to polishing it and making it something that will earn a permanent place on my PC. If you're really so upset by the release, get your refund and move on. Those of us enjoying the product will stay here and continue to help shape it into an even greater game than it is currently.

Agreed!!! The support Stardock is providing is far superior to what most companies would provide at this point. You have to remember that there are far more people that will come to a forum to complain than to give praise. so when you see the people having issues posting here think of the thousands that are playing and having a great time (myself included). So to expect a company to push back a release date when the game is very fun (balance issues aside. ALL new games need to tweek that after release) and playable by a vast, vsat, vast majority is not realistic. 

Gorgon is one having issues and he still appreciates the game and is working it through. He also brought up a good point in the reserving of shelf space, just another of many aspects that go into a release. I hate to say it but the Giant of TBS (CIV) is releasing CIV5 in a few weeks. What would happen to Elemental if it came out 2 weeks after that and all the TBS gamers were wrapped up in the new civ?

So this is a great game, playable buy a vast percentage, a few issues??? yes, but still a great and valdi release!!!

 


 

That wasn't gorgon it was me

Whoops!!!  Sry,  Credit where credit is due!!

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 11

The point was WHEN they chose it. The date was set far in advance because the timeline they devised said the game would be prepared by then.

As far as I remember the detailed post by frogboy - they have about 1 to 2 month to make the choice (this is when you have to have RFM version), before that, plans could be changed. At that time, for many beta testers it was very obvious that the game will not be polished/ready for what we thought is "good game" release.

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 11
Sometimes things don't work out exactly as planned.

And that's what distinguish good business from not so good - ability to work around those things and have backup plans and be able to predict all that.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 7
I find amusing how many people, at the release of each game, complain about they paid for beta test at release. At this point, one would think that only idiots, ignorants or daredevils would dare to buy in release day (or preorder/prebuy). 

i preordered because i loved gc2.  i don't particularly regret it, and i hope that SD can use my $$ well, and in the end they'll polish this into an awesome game.  Rome TW comes to mind as a game that played out that way.

That being said, I won't preorder another TW after Empire, and I probably won't preorder another Stardock after Elemental.  I don't feel like i have some obligation to keep quiet.  Why do you go out of your way to call frustrated custermers idiots?  For a lot of people 60 bucks is a whole lot of money, and if my purchase of Elemental had meant i'm skipping Starcraft or Civ5 i'd be more p***** off than i am.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 11

Quoting the Gorgon, reply 10@ Slainangel: I wouldn't say forced, if you followed the development you know they chose between now and early next year. Like you I love the dedication shown by the SD team. I love their stand on long-term support. But this is also a private company selling a game for 50 bucks to real paying people. Actually, there are a lot of dedicated people out there with great ideas, not just at SD. So when you launch a project you must accept to be evaluated based on the results, not on your good intentions. Look around on the comments on the forum (basic game mechanisms like magic and tactical combat all up in the air, and no balance). If the game is "great" like this, what would it take to say the release was "problematic"? ... Anyway, why go on discussing what's a fact, it is like it is, now we just have to deal with it and can hopefully develop it for the better. But no, it was not something that "happened" to SD or the game. It was handled this way.   


The point was WHEN they chose it. The date was set far in advance because the timeline they devised said the game would be prepared by then. For the most part it was. The point of the post the OP made was that shit happens. Unforseen problems, bugs and driver conflicts over a massive possible amount of system combinations, try as you might you cannot prepare for every scenario. Despite the issues the game has it is still fun to play and a complete product, one which they work long hours on daily to improve. They set the date far in advance and it could not be changed, that's all there is to it. Sometimes things don't work out exactly as planned.

Sorry but it's a bit too much to say that they shouldn't take some blame for the state of the game at release. It will take months to get it in shape, and they must have known that too. And what was really that unforeseen in this? Not like it was a surpise that the game has to be balanced and not crash. At least it shouldn't have been. I'm happy for you that you enjoy it already at this stage, but please don't try and tell other customers expecting a higher quality that they should keep quiet and play what amounts to a Beta version. Period.  

Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top

I was busy playing and enjoying Elemental yesterday when it crashed....again. I hit the restart button but this time my Raptor was trashed. I have had to re-install windows Vista on my remaining hard drive, and soon had Elemental running again. Then it crashed again. I am now scared to play it as I am down to my last hard drive. I think I will leave it untill the next patch arrives.

I can remember exactly the same thing happening when Galciv2 was released, and now the game is as close to perfect as you can get it. I am certain that Elemental will soon be a great game but it will take time.

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sythion, reply 13
I think most people in this day and age can expect a relatively polished game at release, so I can understand how people can be more than a little disappointed. I don't particularly mind buying a game that's still in Beta (I did that with elemental, afterall), but I fully expect other people would.


Arguing that someone has to be an idiot, ignorant or daredevil to expect a game to be released when it's been at least a little polished is a pretty shallow and weak assumption.

I understand and encourage your support of this game, but get some perspective.

Quoting smakemupagus, reply 18
i preordered because i loved gc2.  i don't particularly regret it, and i hope that SD can use my $$ well, and in the end they'll polish this into an awesome game.  Rome TW comes to mind as a game that played out that way.

That being said, I won't preorder another TW after Empire, and I probably won't preorder another Stardock after Elemental.  I don't feel like i have some obligation to keep quiet.  Why do you go out of your way to call frustrated custermers idiots?  For a lot of people 60 bucks is a whole lot of money, and if my purchase of Elemental had meant i'm skipping Starcraft or Civ5 i'd be more p***** off than i am.

I don't say that people shouldn't expect a polished and bug free release, altough I find that naive considering the circumstances that we as species have created. But most of the time it doesn't happen.

I don't argue that people must be an idiot, ignorant or daredevil to actually buy/preorder but that considering how some people react, it would seem so. Which, by the way, would make me an idiot (which I'm but for other reasons), an ignorant (which I'm too) or a daredevil (which... I'm not). Part that both of you seem to ignore when dealing with it. I'm not sorry if you didn't like my words, but I'm sorry if you didn't get what I truly meant (I can always blame english, only my third language and rusty like an old knife, so sorry). As that seems to be the case, I'd say that you better ignore them for their face value.

And Mr smakemupagus, life is choice and sacrifices. I had to make mine for the LE with shipping and all. And had to make even more to do a similar order as a gift for a friend. Yet, even if the game wasn't working at all for me, I wouldn't act differently than now with Stardock. But I'm no one but myself and people that has already proven me that can be trusted (like Stardock's) will have my conditional* support by the simple fact that they earnt it, specially in the difficult times that it's when matters. Plus the carrot works better than the stick. :P

* obviously, if they turned to the Dark Side I'd have to defect...

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 21
people that has already proven me that can be trusted (like Stardock's) will have my conditional* support by the simple fact that they earnt it.

a very respectable position! :)  sorry if i was a little harsh by misunderstanding your point

 

Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top

Plus the carrot works better than the stick

Meh, any psychologist will tell you that :beer: AND :banhammer: always works better than :beer: OR :banhammer: . 

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

@ some...

First off, I'm one who feels strongly that a product purchased must do the job immediately.  However, the software environment in general, seems to currently be based on a post release fix-it somewhat paradigm.  But by default I don't trust in a companies willingness to improve product post sale.  Yet, from researching Stardocks history, I grant them a bit of a window based on historic performance.  They do have an established history of exceptional support of product.  To the point of taking consumer feedback to perfect product... POST SALE!!!  Based on established history, I have utmost confidence that Stardock will perfect their product beyond the point that which the masses might demand; and then go beyond the average expection. 

 

Quoting bman654, reply 2
Yep stuff happens.  The fail is that they released the game before the job was finished.

Stardock had to set a release date while mid project.  They evaluated the scope of project in relation to work already accomplished and choose from the extremely limited set of release dates that were available to them.  So they committed to a date and pressed on.  Then shit happened... for sake of my demonstration... a massive rock appeared in the trench, the weather got in the way, electrical cables altered design specs etc.  Shit happens right!? And Elemental War of Magic is ambitious indeed!  Stardock adapted to the challenges presented by this ambition and moved forward.  They looked to the future and marshaled their forces to best effect... as relates to providing product to sync with the immovable release date; all the while looking to the future to incorporate complexities that could not be immediately realised. 

Now, we've reached the release date and Stardock offers what they have.  Then they IMMEDIATELY begin updating the game.  And I mean IMMEDIATELY.  Can't stress that enough!!!  IMMEDIATELY.  They significantly extended their normal working hours to provide timely hot-fixes.  You might expect that and think nothing of it.  But you should know that they trade elements of their core personal lives for our individual moments of recreation. For the Elemental team, time with Family, and expression of hobby took second precedence to timely updates and hot-fixes so that you might enjoy your play time...  as much as they manage in this short time frame.  I think they have gone above and beyond.  Give it some time if your not one of the many already enjoying teh game.  Rest assured that Stardock personnel sacrifice for your benifit.  Know that Stardock has an established history of not only supporting their games, but of listening closely to their consumer base and responding with a product evolution which results in an ever increasing enjoyable product.  Whats the problem here? 

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting tillachan2k9, reply 14
If you're going with the whole wall building analogy, most contractors don't get paid until the wall is finished   
Not so true.  Often you pay a large chunk of the job cost to cover materials at the very least.  When I can, I do it myself because Iam unhappy with other peoples results, even when a job stretches outside my experience.  This project was a question of money so I took professional design advisement and then did it myself because that was the only option.  Software is outside of my skill set atm.  Due to being unhappy with products, I have grown towards seeking my software vendors with caution.  After research, Stardock is one of a few outfits I have confidence that will support their product proper. 

 

 

Quoting solidsmooky, reply 9
I'm the brick in the first picture
 LoL I know the feeling. 

But in that pic I wasn't leveraging off any bricks; but was instead pushing my lever upwards to then kick the blocks under the rock to gain a couple inches of headway.  Then reposition the lever, lift the rock, kick a few more blocks under... wash rinse and repeat as required.  I ended up using a Bunch of those bricks!  Dad took a pic of that, but I don't have it onthis PC atm.  Can post later if anyone actually cares to see it.

 

 

Quoting Tyveil, reply 4
Wow dude, 24 yards of rock a wheelbarrel full at a time??!!

I had 12 yards of fill dirt delivered in the spring raise the ground elevation around my basement foundation.  I'm still spending hours on my weekends and evenings moving dirt, 4 months later!!  You are a glutton for punishment.  My hats off to you.
TY.  But I've a long history with this sort of thing so its not so bad as it might be for some. Taking the material out of the ground for which the rock takes its place was the toughest part.  Its only punishment the first few times around... mostly.  After that its just a workout making each subsequent event that much easier.  The muscles harden and callus forms.  Above all the mind learns.  I enjoy labor like this.  It forces a fulfilling mind body union.  Labor becomes easier with correct thinking.  Use leverage and momentum to your advantage.  And use your Full-body to best benefit.   & Think martial art spatial awareness, + applied energy, + focused whole body power, ++.  Moving a dump trucks worth of material is not that much of a feat when you put mind behind body to work wise.  & the Simple pains fade to insignificance with force of heart.  See the mountain and just flippin move it!  You know you can!! Motivate.

Hehe, my nephew demonstrates force of heart...  He saw the mountain and didn't hesitate to climb to the top and begin whittling it away.  One tiny wheelbarrow at a time.  (that wheelbarrow was no toy.. that little guy worked with strong heart and accomplished actual work!  We couldn't keep him away and had to get tools to suit him.  If this was a paying job, I'd give him a full share.  Hats off to Him!)