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Elemental: Day 0 Preview

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Elemental: Day 0 Preview

from JoeUser Forums

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AUGUST 24th, 2010.

This is a day that the team has been waiting for for three years!

As some of you know, some retailers broke the street date and to make sure our beta testers and pre-order customers didn’t get the short end of the stick, we released an interim build of Elemental (internally called Gold Edition++).

It turns out that this was a blessing in disguise because we have gotten a tremendous amount of useful feedback from those of you who got the game before release. The results of this comes in two parts.

First, tonight we released a new interim build. This version is basically bug fixes and such based on player reports. You can see what’s new in it here. Looking at the change log gives you an idea of the complexities of making a new PC game in 2010 with a brand new engine. :-)

But tomorrow (or later today as I write this) is the big one. The official day 0 update that the team and I have been working on since Beta 4 (the beta group can go into more detail on this but in brief: After beta 4, the game tree was split in two. One version went on to be the gold version which is what those people who have it early are playing. The other tree went on to become day 0.  These two trees were merged today already and will be going up tomorrow.

So what can you expect?

Here’s a few highlights:

  1. The UI is updated to be somewhat more intuitive.
  2. The campaign is significantly updated (though only for those starting fresh).
  3. Resources are treated more like units. This is hard to explain but essentially the game will let you know of what resources you’re not using and how to make use of them.
  4. There’s a lot of performance improvements the day 0 build, particularly for those with lower end CPUs.
  5. The “day 0” AI is in it.
  6. There’s been a polish pass to the spell books and tactical battles.
  7. There’s been a general polish pass to the main game UI overall.
  8. There’s been a lot of balancing to monsters, units, etc.

The day 0 version, as most of you know, is the version that was originally expected to be the first version most people would ever play.  We’re definitely glad, however, that people got to play the pre-day 0 builds because we got a lot of very useful feedback and some crash reports that were not known about.

Now, a couple words on multiplayer.  The servers are up but we are not going to enable multiplayer until next week. Part of this is, to be honest, team exhaustion. The early release meant a lot of people who were expecting this weekend off to rest from the grueling last few weeks had to come in.  So we’re going to let them get a couple of days off later this week and open up the MP next week.

One piece of good news on MP. Originally we had planned to eliminate tactical battles from MP entirely because of balance. Some people correctly guessed the misguided (in hindsight) reason for this: We were approaching MP from a purely competitive point of view.  Based on the persuasive arguments made by our players, we have decided that tactical battles will be made available in MP – as an option – at a later date as a free update.

So that’s all for now.  After the day 0 update, I plan to take a day or two off too. I hear sleeping is the new “in thing” and you guys know me, I’m all about being cool and…um..what not.

516,973 views 161 replies
Reply #51 from Elemental Forums Top


One piece of good news on MP. Originally we had planned to eliminate tactical battles from MP entirely because of balance. Some people correctly guessed the misguided (in hindsight) reason for this: We were approaching MP from a purely competitive point of view.  Based on the persuasive arguments made by our players, we have decided that tactical battles will be made available in MP – as an option – at a later date as a free update.

Awesome news Froggie! Thanks! :thumbsup: :beer:

Reply #52 from Elemental Forums Top

Congratulations on getting here guys!  I am really looking forward to seeing what you have coming for us in future updates.  In the meanting, get some rest and may the fruits of your efforts exceed your wildest expectations.

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

So glad to hear tactical battles are eventually coming back to MP. Definitely buying a second copy for multiplayer after this happens.

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

Congratulations on soon-release.

 

Please try to have a fix for ati+win7 64bit crashes in the day0 patch! It's really killing the fun.

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks so much, I really appreciate all your hard work in fixing the issues that arose in the pre-launch versions.  Here's hoping the next couple days go smoothly and you can get some sleep!

Reply #56 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting awuffleablehedgie, reply 20
Lord Nova: you can see the differences between the difficult levels (and, also, make them harder/easier if you want).

Program Files\Stardock Games\Elemental\data\English\CoreDifficultyLevels.xml



So at what difficulty level does the creatures (Neutral or Independants) of the world start attacking the players (AI and Human) to include attacking cities? I noticed on normal they just stand there waiting to be slautered.

In AOW:SM I created many maps where the Independats were so dangerous that the players AI and Human would have to band togather just to stay alive. Those were some fun maps. (Both SP and MP.) I'm hoping that I can have the independats do the same in Elemental.

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Fra2, reply 42




quoting post


Now, a couple words on multiplayer.  The servers are up but we are not going to enable multiplayer until next week. Part of this is, to be honest, team exhaustion. The early release meant a lot of people who were expecting this weekend off to rest from the grueling last few weeks had to come in.  So we’re going to let them get a couple of days off later this week and open up the MP next week.

One piece of good news on MP. Originally we had planned to eliminate tactical battles from MP entirely because of balance. Some people correctly guessed the misguided (in hindsight) reason for this: We were approaching MP from a purely competitive point of view.  Based on the persuasive arguments made by our players, we have decided that tactical battles will be made available in MP – as an option – at a later date as a free update.




Now.. this is a little disappointing to me. If tactical battles are already in the game why do we have to wait a future update, at a later date, to use them in MP? Also... could you please tell us which other aspects of the game will be removed and/or dumbed down in MP?

Please.. I beg you, make so that we get the full game in MP and not a dumbed down version... I understand others would want a faster gameplay for competitive MP matches over the internet, but for all those that love to play these type of games on LAN with friends it would be nice to have an option to enable all the SP features in MP.

 

 

I agree I hate MP that is dumb down just to make it 'faster' please give us the option to play the SP game but with other humans as well as AI. And you don't have to balance the starting areas.

But unlike 'Fra2' I can wait until next week when you guys are all rested up. Besides I'm learning the game so SP for a week is fine with me.

Oh and by the way I have a bone to pick with you Frogboy, You made me late to work today because I was playing Elemental and lost track of time. Shame on you :)

 

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

Perhaps I'm doing something wrong but I did find an issue with casting spells on heros. For example I did the Imbue Essence on a stack that had 3 heros in it but the spell did not ask who I wanted to cast this on. I also tried it with the Protect person (or something like that) spell and it also would not ask who I wanted targeted it just randomly picked one. Please do make us have to break up a stack just to be able to target an individual. I looked in the online help area and the .pdf manual but found no help with this.

Reply #60 from Elemental Forums Top

Please, concentrate on bugs and balance. I now know why you call your early alphas "betas": because you can call your "betas" "releases"... Waiting for the game to be stable and balanced before to release, even if it means a later release would certainly have been better. This may have been a cause for bank account problems, but you wouldn't have had such exhaustion problem! And possibly, I would have avoided all that frustration.

I'm glad I waited the night to cool down before posting, my previous version was a lot more heated!

Here is my share of bug reports

  • diamondspider forgot to speak about the biggest of all bugs : if switch to main menu from a game that lasted more than ten minutes and I get a crash... If I use the map editor, it's even quicker. (edit: sorry for this strange empty link, a bug of the forum editor)
  • The cursor go crazy pretty often; clicking on small buttons with a speech forbidden cursor is very disturbing.
  • I once got to hire a clone of one of my heroes, with just the name changing, and every thing else, from profession and stats to clothes and tattoos, the same.
  • Then I ask a unit to move, it often will move to another place. In tactical battle, this is very annoying, when you ask someone to attack and that he starts to move around its target... When the cursor decides to be crazy at the same time, it's quite a cause of anxiety. It often happen when you are in mountainous regions or when you click on an enemy.

And the balance is really, really bad. You should restart it all over...

  • Heroes are useless, because underpowered, unless you equip them with really good stuff. Did you think to give two or even three stats points to dispatch on level up ?
  • Groups of units (several people on a tactical battle tile) are ridiculously overpowered. If it was me, this would disappear from the game right away : the very concept of multiplying the attack and armor by multiplying the people is ludicrous. It's OK to multiply the hp (if the little people change accordingly when it is lowered). It's the number of hit and not the attack rating that should be multiplied, when a hit is ordered (according to the number of people still alive). When an attacking unit is equipped with a sword or bow, the maximum damage should be to kill one of the people of the unit, unless using area of effect attack, attacks from a big creature (like a dragon's paw), or another group, as they would get several attacks, and not a single big one. And to finish it, once you get the tech, you should have made possible to regroup people in units, and to split them, while keeping track of each people's experience, and stats. Of course, every character in the group should be equiped with exactly the same gear.
  • It seems it is not possible to upgrade a non-hero unit's equipment. I would have made it possible when the unit is in a town.
  • How comes equipment for heroes is so expensive? for the price of a hero's club, you could equip ten peasants with clubs... And train them in the process. Are sales reserved for peasants or what ? This is one of the things that makes heroes so useless. It is so true that, you can sometime resell heroes gear for more than the price you hired them right after they join your empire. It should be possible to craft high quality stuff for the heroes, too expensive to use for troops, but that comes with better stats. And that would take time and resources to craft. The gear price for peasants should even be more than the ones for the heroes, as heroes don't need to be trained to use them. And basic gear, like a club, should cost a lot less than a merchant's shop to build, for example. Weapons should begin to be expansive only when they start to be of high quality. You may argue that the merchant pays a part of the price, but then , what about the other buildings?
  • Why is it not possible to pick up the vanquished enemy equipment, with perhaps some loss from the hits they received? And enable to use them to upgrade your own troops (after a training course in town if necessary, depending of the weapon type), especially when you have the technology required to build them? If you're afraid for mass selling, you can easily forbid to sell more than a couple of the same equipment at a time, depending on the city size you try to sell; and consistent prices for heroes and troops would help to avoid transforming a victory into a massive cash income. Limiting the inventory space would do that just fine, too; you could make the battlefield into a special location, with the amount of gear disappearing in the course of time, or when a bandit come over to take it.

Some designs are also very anoying, and need to be changed.

  • A simple one: why can't I edit an existing sovereign when I'm starting a new game?..
  • Why is the equipment of the heroes not directly visible in the merchant's screen ? If it is only to be able to show his ugly face, I'd rather not see it at all and be able to know what I need to buy. I remember you speak about how much you hated to have so much clicks to do in some old beta version. Don't give it up now!
  • Why are tactical battle animations so slow? using archers on the battlefield is a pain. They transformed the already boring campaign in a nightmare (I did not research the bow in any of my sandbox starts).
  • The trade screen is really the worst piece of ergonomy I've seen for years... You should remake it from scrash, and explain the trainee that made it how bad his job was...

I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting some of the ideas that came to my mind in the course of my games.

Reply #61 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting EdrinFra, reply 60
Please, concentrate on bugs and balance. I now know why you call your early alphas "betas": because you can call your "betas" "releases"... Waiting for the game to be stable and balanced before to release, even if it means a later release would certainly have been better. This may have been a cause for bank account problems, but you wouldn't have had such exhaustion problem! And possibly, I would have avoided all that frustration.

I'm glad I waited the night to cool down before posting, my previous version was a lot more heated!

Here is my share of bug reports


diamondspider forgot to speak about the biggest of all bugs : if switch to main menu from a game that lasted more than ten minutes and I get a crash... If I use the map editor, it's even quicker. (edit: sorry for this strange empty link, a bug of the forum editor)
The cursor go crazy pretty often; clicking on small buttons with a speech forbidden cursor is very disturbing.
I once got to hire a clone of one of my heroes, with just the name changing, and every thing else, from profession and stats to clothes and tattoos, the same.
Then I ask a unit to move, it often will move to another place. In tactical battle, this is very annoying, when you ask someone to attack and that he starts to move around its target... When the cursor decides to be crazy at the same time, it's quite a cause of anxiety. It often happen when you are in mountainous regions or when you click on an enemy.
And the balance is really, really bad. You should restart it all over...


Heroes are useless, because underpowered, unless you equip them with really good stuff. Did you think to give two or even three stats points to dispatch on level up ?
Groups of units (several people on a tactical battle tile) are ridiculously overpowered. If it was me, this would disappear from the game right away : the very concept of multiplying the attack and armor by multiplying the people is ludicrous. It's OK to multiply the hp (if the little people change accordingly when it is lowered). It's the number of hit and not the attack rating that should be multiplied, when a hit is ordered (according to the number of people still alive). When an attacking unit is equipped with a sword or bow, the maximum damage should be to kill one of the people of the unit, unless using area of effect attack, attacks from a big creature (like a dragon's paw), or another group, as they would get several attacks, and not a single big one. And to finish it, once you get the tech, you should have made possible to regroup people in units, and to split them, while keeping track of each people's experience, and stats. Of course, every character in the group should be equiped with exactly the same gear.
It seems it is not possible to upgrade a non-hero unit's equipment. I would have made it possible when the unit is in a town.
How comes equipment for heroes is so expensive? for the price of a hero's club, you could equip ten peasants with clubs... And train them in the process. Are sales reserved for peasants or what ? This is one of the things that makes heroes so useless. It is so true that, you can sometime resell heroes gear for more than the price you hired them right after they join your empire. It should be possible to craft high quality stuff for the heroes, too expensive to use for troops, but that comes with better stats. And that would take time and resources to craft. The gear price for peasants should even be more than the ones for the heroes, as heroes don't need to be trained to use them. And basic gear, like a club, should cost a lot less than a merchant's shop to build, for example. Weapons should begin to be expansive only when they start to be of high quality. You may argue that the merchant pays a part of the price, but then , what about the other buildings?
Why is it not possible to pick up the vanquished enemy equipment, with perhaps some loss from the hits they received? And enable to use them to upgrade your own troops (after a training course in town if necessary, depending of the weapon type), especially when you have the technology required to build them? If you're afraid for mass selling, you can easily forbid to sell more than a couple of the same equipment at a time, depending on the city size you try to sell; and consistent prices for heroes and troops would help to avoid transforming a victory into a massive cash income. Limiting the inventory space would do that just fine, too; you could make the battlefield into a special location, with the amount of gear disappearing in the course of time, or when a bandit come over to take it.
Some designs are also very anoying, and need to be changed.


A simple one: why can't I edit an existing sovereign when I'm starting a new game?..
Why is the equipment of the heroes not directly visible in the merchant's screen ? If it is only to be able to show his ugly face, I'd rather not see it at all and be able to know what I need to buy. I remember you speak about how much you hated to have so much clicks to do in some old beta version. Don't give it up now!
Why are tactical battle animations so slow? using archers on the battlefield is a pain. They transformed the already boring campaign in a nightmare (I did not research the bow in any of my sandbox starts).
The trade screen is really the worst piece of ergonomy I've seen for years... You should remake it from scrash, and explain the trainee that made it how bad his job was...
I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting some of the ideas that came to my mind in the course of my games.

I really hope you pay no attention to this ^ guy because he's not reporting bugs of the game he's trying to REDESIGN IT. LMFAO

I'm certainly glad he's not the one designing it also because his ideas are HORRIBLE. Granted some things need some minor adjustments but his ideas are JUST OVER THE TOP. hahahahah

Reply #62 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting EpicMouse, reply 59
going to pick this up after work today should i wait for the day 0 patch to install it?

It's pretty easy to patch once the update comes out, so I wouldn't worry about that.

+1 Loading…
Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ioticus, reply 23



Quoting awuffleablehedgie,
reply 20
Lord Nova: you can see the differences between the difficult levels (and, also, make them harder/easier if you want).

Program Files\Stardock Games\Elemental\data\English\CoreDifficultyLevels.xml




 

Excuse me but I can't read XML.  Can someone put in plain english exactly how the difficulty changes the game and at what level the AI starts to cheat?  Thanks.
You really do want to read that file as it will give you all the info you need and there are several nuances that really don't fit into a single post on a forum.  Almost everything in there is a ratio of the AI/You.  If you see "1.0" then it means you and the AI are equal.  Less than 1 means you have an advantage.  Greater than 1 means the AI has an advantage.

As for AI cheating, it depends what you mean.  There is a fog of war cheat at the highest level (ridiculous).  On the other hand, there are other assists given to the AI in terms of starting funds, economy, hit points, etc. that can be more than you have depending on the level you select.

Oh, and as of the current build, the AI intelligence doesn't use its full strength until Challenging, during which it also gets double your starting funds.  That's all subject to change as patches come along.

 

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting EdrinFra, reply 60


--- Heroes are useless, because underpowered, unless you equip them with really good stuff. Did you think to give two or even three stats points to dispatch on level up ?


--- Groups of units (several people on a tactical battle tile) are ridiculously overpowered. If it was me, this would disappear from the game right away : the very concept of multiplying the attack and armor by multiplying the people is ludicrous. It's OK to multiply the hp (if the little people change accordingly when it is lowered). It's the number of hit and not the attack rating that should be multiplied, when a hit is ordered (according to the number of people still alive). When an attacking unit is equipped with a sword or bow, the maximum damage should be to kill one of the people of the unit, unless using area of effect attack, attacks from a big creature (like a dragon's paw), or another group, as they would get several attacks, and not a single big one. And to finish it, once you get the tech, you should have made possible to regroup people in units, and to split them, while keeping track of each people's experience, and stats. Of course, every character in the group should be equiped with exactly the same gear.


--- It seems it is not possible to upgrade a non-hero unit's equipment. I would have made it possible when the unit is in a town.

--- How comes equipment for heroes is so expensive? for the price of a hero's club, you could equip ten peasants with clubs... And train them in the process. Are sales reserved for peasants or what ? This is one of the things that makes heroes so useless. It is so true that, you can sometime resell heroes gear for more than the price you hired them right after they join your empire. It should be possible to craft high quality stuff for the heroes, too expensive to use for troops, but that comes with better stats. And that would take time and resources to craft. The gear price for peasants should even be more than the ones for the heroes, as heroes don't need to be trained to use them. And basic gear, like a club, should cost a lot less than a merchant's shop to build, for example. Weapons should begin to be expansive only when they start to be of high quality. You may argue that the merchant pays a part of the price, but then , what about the other buildings?

--- A simple one: why can't I edit an existing sovereign when I'm starting a new game?

 

Excellent suggestions Edrin. I especially agree with the above points.

Reply #65 from Elemental Forums Top

Great attitude Frog.  Keep up the good work.

Reply #66 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting diamondspider, reply 45
6) This is not a bug, but may as well be: the random numbers in combat are WAY too random. Why bother with having subtle elements like 25% increases in defense on a unit when a unit with a 36 attack can easily get only 5 damage when they are in the open? Even when the enemy has low armor and is of similar level. I don't mind some randomness, but the amount here makes many of the subtle tactic simply not worth worrying about, since luck determines the battles in most cases, given reasonably non-stupid play.

From the limited time I've spent with the game, I agree with this.  Damage ranges need to be more predictable for sure. 

It would also be nice if the game showed a damage estimate before you commit to an attack, taking enemy defense bonuses into consideration (it might already be doing this and I just missed it).

Reply #67 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Femmefatal48, reply 62


I really hope you pay no attention to this ^ guy because he's not reporting bugs of the game he's trying to REDESIGN IT. LMFAO

I'm certainly glad he's not the one designing it also because his ideas are HORRIBLE. Granted some things need some minor adjustments but his ideas are JUST OVER THE TOP. hahahahah

 

Dear god not all of them. I hope they listen on the crash bug he first listed, it's driving me bonkers. If the game lasts a decent amount of time and you want to load a saved game or hop into the editors or start a new game... bam! Desktop.

 

Let them pay attention to the first one at least. :P Heh.

 

And the cursor thing.

Reply #68 from Elemental Forums Top

Congratulations on release day! (although a lot of work remains to get the game into the shape we want it).

Two important points (of view) on the tactical combat: 1. like many have said, please lower the spread of damage possible, it is just too random, which sooner or later becomes seriously annoying when bad luck messes up your master plan.

2. I find the retaliatory attacks to be slightly annoying as implemented also. I know this is not a bug, but I think the game would be much more fun to play if the retaliatory attacks where either only available as special ability (e.g. through training, and for certain monsters) or if they did considerable less damage in general. As it stands now, often you take more damage when attacking than you deliver - not fun IMPOV. It makes you wish you could just press skip turn button for all your peasants and bad soldiers. Let the attacks be the moment you deal out some damage (and maybe taking some, lesser), for both sides. As it is now, ranged weapons and magic becomes overpowered too. It's not really firstly about balance, just about the feeling of having to kill off your own troops by your own mouse clicking ...    

Reply #69 from Elemental Forums Top

So.. No tactical battles in MP until "at a later date"? Honestly, auto-resolve ruins these kinda games, making them utterly uninteresting to play since you are basically just throwing your entire hard work building your kingdom into the hands of a dice, deciding if you live or die.
Wont be bothering with MP then, i hope the AI gets swift updates. >_>

When i used to play AoW:SM with my friend, we always used tactical battles, even when fighting the npcs. Yes we had to sit and watch eachothers fights, but it was still fun. It took a long time but it was fun. Auto-resolve *dice roll* You Win! isnt fun.

Reply #70 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 57



Quoting Fra2,
reply 42




quoting post


Now, a couple words on multiplayer.  The servers are up but we are not going to enable multiplayer until next week. Part of this is, to be honest, team exhaustion. The early release meant a lot of people who were expecting this weekend off to rest from the grueling last few weeks had to come in.  So we’re going to let them get a couple of days off later this week and open up the MP next week.

One piece of good news on MP. Originally we had planned to eliminate tactical battles from MP entirely because of balance. Some people correctly guessed the misguided (in hindsight) reason for this: We were approaching MP from a purely competitive point of view.  Based on the persuasive arguments made by our players, we have decided that tactical battles will be made available in MP – as an option – at a later date as a free update.




Now.. this is a little disappointing to me. If tactical battles are already in the game why do we have to wait a future update, at a later date, to use them in MP? Also... could you please tell us which other aspects of the game will be removed and/or dumbed down in MP?

Please.. I beg you, make so that we get the full game in MP and not a dumbed down version... I understand others would want a faster gameplay for competitive MP matches over the internet, but for all those that love to play these type of games on LAN with friends it would be nice to have an option to enable all the SP features in MP.

 

 



I agree I hate MP that is dumb down just to make it 'faster' please give us the option to play the SP game but with other humans as well as AI. And you don't have to balance the starting areas.

But unlike 'Fra2' I can wait until next week when you guys are all rested up. Besides I'm learning the game so SP for a week is fine with me.

Oh and by the way I have a bone to pick with you Frogboy, You made me late to work today because I was playing Elemental and lost track of time. Shame on you

 

Agreed!  Please give us all the SP features, and let them be just as customizable (we can choose to use questing as a way to win in SP, let us be able to turn that off in competitive if we want, and leave it in for cooperative play).  Also, any chance we can get hotseat play?  I play similar games with family, but they hate taking the controls usually - instead they 'direct' me what they want done as they understand the game just fine (Civ, Warlords, etc.).

Had a chance to play the game last night briefly, and while I had a few issues, simply reading problems others had made it all a bit smoother.  Game was stable enough, but there were some noticeable bugs (for example, clicking on a city in the unit tree would show one name, zoom to a city with a different name, and then if I zoomed out to cloth map would show a different name too!)

Thanks for a fun game - can't wait to try out the patch, and (soon) try MP!

Reply #72 from Elemental Forums Top

You can do a digital download....

Reply #73 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 57


I agree I hate MP that is dumb down just to make it 'faster' please give us the option to play the SP game but with other humans as well as AI. And you don't have to balance the starting areas.

But unlike 'Fra2' I can wait until next week when you guys are all rested up. Besides I'm learning the game so SP for a week is fine with me.
 

I could easily wait next week too... but in my book "at a later date" means 1-2 months at least... that's why I was a little disappointed.

Reply #74 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kira_The_Sinner, reply 72
Too bad the game is not in Europe   I guess I will never get this >.< F**K U EUROPE U ARE S**T

What exactly stops you from buying it digitally on Impulse?

That's what I did.

Reply #75 from Elemental Forums Top

Great work, team. Yes, it's buggy. And yes, there is some tweaking needed. But this is a very good product, and I think we're all willing to stand by while you catch your breath. Maybe it's my love affair with Dwarf Fortress, but I'm perfectly okay with playing what you've provided while you work out the kinks.

 

I'm loving the RPG/Strategy mix. It's like Final Fantasy Tactics, only on a Civilization level.

 

Stardock rules.