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Please reconsider this aspect of MP

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Please reconsider this aspect of MP

from Elemental Forums

From the GameShark interview:

 

Yeah.. I’m not a good advocate for multiplayer.. I love multiplayer in, say, StarCraft II, but in turn-based strategy games… basically we put it in because some people like it a lot. Some people imagine that multiplayer should be like the single-player game with humans in it, but our play-testing on it found that that isn't fun at all. So what we've been doing with the multiplayer is really streamlining it so that players get a different technology tree that focuses on the parts that are the most fun in multiplayer. It kind of moves the game along a little better.

 

Please at least consider having the "full" game/tech trees as a game option when hosting a MP game, don't arbitrarily limit my options.  This is honestly the first thing I've heard about Elemental that has really put me off, as it's a trend in the Strategy market that drives me nuts.  East India Company only having skirmish battles for MP, the Total War game not having the campaign be multiplayer, etc.

I understand that playtesting is important, and they want to have the game be fun out of the box.  However, please allow this as a game option checkbox.  My friends and I want the full experience, we don't need stripped down, streamlined, or anything like that.  We play games like Fall From Heaven 2 and Europa Universalis 3 together, I think we'd be okay with the full SP tech trees.

Granted the quote above is a bit short on concrete details, but I really hope Stardock reconsiders this, adds it as a game option, or at least has it easily modable, otherwise that's very disappointing.

elemental
127,351 views 52 replies
Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree, Maxlongstreet put things a lot better than I could.  Karma!

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

k1   Maxlongstreet, couldn't have articulated it better.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

well you are partially right about it

 

but dont forget that the numbers in multiplayers are made by random casuals vs other randoms

 

so yes, TIME MATTERS

 

if the game is too long a small community of friends could still enjoy the game, but the random game i play vs another random players on the internet wont

 

the risk of disconnecting will be too high, the risk of one of the players to get bored and log out is high, the risk  of a random IRL event to occur is high, the chance every single player have got actually a long time for a match is lower

 

etc etc

 

so i do care a lot about multi but i think frog is right to try and make the games a bit  shorter than usual

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Don't think anyone is arguing that a more streamlined version is a bad idea in and of itself, only that it should be optional.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

well b4 we criticize the choice we should see EXACTLY how long is (would be)  a multi game with all in

and what exactly they cut off

Reply #32 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 31
well you are partially right about it

 

but dont forget that the numbers in multiplayers are made by random casuals vs other randoms

 

so yes, TIME MATTERS

 

if the game is too long a small community of friends could still enjoy the game, but the random game i play vs another random players on the internet wont

 

the risk of disconnecting will be too high, the risk of one of the players to get bored and log out is high, the risk  of a random IRL event to occur is high, the chance every single player have got actually a long time for a match is lower

 

etc etc

 

so i do care a lot about multi but i think frog is right to try and make the games a bit  shorter than usual

I could be wrong, but I don't think random casuals interested in multiplayer are the people that are going to wind up buying this game. It's not as if it is heavily marketed, and I know a fair number of civ players that actually play with people they know for months at a time. I am one of them. like max said, Stardock needs to stop listening to the SP only crowd in regard to muliplayer, they're not the multiplayer customer base.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

ppl buy elemental cause they like strategy and turn based games(and fantasy maybe)

 

some  of them like to play against other human beings

when they can surely they will organize events with each other

most of the time they will come home from work with 1 hour to spare or something like that

 

and they will join a random game on the internet

Reply #34 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 36
ppl buy elemental cause they like strategy and turn based games(and fantasy maybe)

 

some  of them like to play against other human beings

when they can surely they will organize events with each other

most of the time they will come home from work with 1 hour to spare or something like that

 

and they will join a random game on the internet

And some of us have friends and family that we we will play with. Elemental is not a casual game, Stardock has said that many times. That is why i specified random casuals instead of "people".

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

i dont get how can stardock force ppl to play like they think

 

the WORLD is based on casual gamers

 

there is no one who can change that

 

like i said b4 a casual game is easier for everyone and thats why it is whats is gonna happen more often

 

you will play ofc with your friends but the HIGH NUMBERS wont be your games but the casual random games

Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 38
i dont get how can stardock force ppl to play like they think

 

the WORLD is based on casual gamers

 

there is no one who can change that

 

like i said b4 a casual game is easier for everyone and thats why it is whats is gonna happen more often

 

you will play ofc with your friends but the HIGH NUMBERS wont be your games but the casual random games

Okay, let's back up a moment here. You are aware that Elemental is not a casual game right... this isn't Farmville with magical ponies.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting maxlongstreet, reply 26
This post uses some bad logic which kind of epitomizes the problem here.

No, the logic is fine and my point sound.  You just happen to disagree with it, and that's O.K.  All I was doing was looking at things from Stardock's perspective.  They've done the testing and decided that the best multiplayer experience could be had with special rules designed to make it more streamlined and balanced.

Quoting maxlongstreet,
By the way, I would be delighted to be wrong, and to discover that the streamlined multiplayer is in fact awesome, and that what has been removed is simply stuff unnecessary or inappropriate for multiplayer. What has me be nervous/suspicious of what Brad says is fun in multiplayer is that he doesn't seem to be someone who particularly likes big, hairy, turn-based multiplayer games, and thus he may be speaking from a desire for speed and simplicity that I don't share. We shall see!

Which is why I agree that probably the best course would be to make the streamlined rules optional, similar to how they made pirate raids optional in Sins of a Solar Empire.

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

Absolutely, it's what it all comes down to.  Options allows everyone to win.  Have the default option be a nice, streamlined experience designed for "balanced" matchups online, and an "Epic" option for the full deal.  I think everyone walks away happy from that.

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 38
i dont get how can stardock force ppl to play like they think

 

the WORLD is based on casual gamers

 

there is no one who can change that

 

like i said b4 a casual game is easier for everyone and thats why it is whats is gonna happen more often

 

you will play ofc with your friends but the HIGH NUMBERS wont be your games but the casual random games

The world is also based on cheap cars, but there's still a market for Ferrari.

This isn't really a "casual" game.

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

I think having the option to play a full or streamlined version of multiplayer is something that everyone here could get behind.

Reply #41 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting goodgimp, reply 41
Absolutely, it's what it all comes down to.  Options allows everyone to win.  Have the default option be a nice, streamlined experience designed for "balanced" matchups online, and an "Epic" option for the full deal.  I think everyone walks away happy from that.

 

Quoting maxlongstreet, reply 43
I think having the option to play a full or streamlined version of multiplayer is something that everyone here could get behind.

Agreed, an option between the two would be perfect.

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

i have to agree as well.  there should be an option for "epic" mode(which is everything like single)for the people that play with friends, and then "skirmish" mode which is for the randoms that want to compete with each other.

Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Xtropy, reply 46
Well there is your answer:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/391013

Looks like no options.

Well that pretty much confirms my fear of what Stardock wound up doing with MP. At least some information was given, and there might be potential in the future, who knows. I keep hearing about demand for MP, except when you ship a game with less than barebones MP, it seems unlikely to drive up demand. We'll see.

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nesrie, reply 47

Well that pretty much confirms my fear of what Stardock wound up doing with MP. At least some information was given, and there might be potential in the future, who knows. I keep hearing about demand for MP, except when you ship a game with less than barebones MP, it seems unlikely to drive up demand. We'll see.

I'm still holding out some hope that this will moddable, at least at some point, regardless of what Stardock decides.  Since the primary reason given for not allowing tactical battles as an option is that people might flame the forums, if it was enabled by a mod instead they could flame the mod maker instead of stardock.

Reply #46 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Xtropy, reply 48



Quoting Nesrie,
reply 47

Well that pretty much confirms my fear of what Stardock wound up doing with MP. At least some information was given, and there might be potential in the future, who knows. I keep hearing about demand for MP, except when you ship a game with less than barebones MP, it seems unlikely to drive up demand. We'll see.


I'm still holding out some hope that this will moddable, at least at some point, regardless of what Stardock decides.  Since the primary reason given for not allowing tactical battles as an option is that people might flame the forums, if it was enabled by a mod instead they could flame the mod maker instead of stardock.

I don't mind watching battles or being able ot just sort of explore my empire and dig deep into stuff while someone is playing. I see this as an issue for the random person/ so called casual crowd, but the game was never billed as casual. It would be awesome if it could be like AOW, in that you can have more than 2 people in a battle.

Brad says it has potential for a group of friends to play, and that is exactly what I would be doing. Coop with 1-2 maybe 3 friends. And if we can spend a few hours playing CK2 just waiting around for some potential princesses to grow up as of age so our sons can marry them and get a chance at a throne days of gaming later, I think we have the patience to enjoy an epic multiplayer game that involves some long battles we might not be a part of.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

 

Quoting Nesrie, reply 49

I don't mind watching battles or being able ot just sort of explore my empire and dig deep into stuff while someone is playing. I see this as an issue for the random person/ so called casual crowd, but the game was never billed as casual. It would be awesome if it could be like AOW, in that you can have more than 2 people in a battle.

Brad says it has potential for a group of friends to play, and that is exactly what I would be doing. Coop with 1-2 maybe 3 friends. And if we can spend a few hours playing CK2 just waiting around for some potential princesses to grow up as of age so our sons can marry them and get a chance at a throne days of gaming later, I think we have the patience to enjoy an epic multiplayer game that involves some long battles we might not be a part of.

You're preaching to the choir.

If they are worried about casuals accidentally selecting tactical battles in MP then they should just have a big red all-caps warning message followed by several skulls and crossbones telling players that they are enabling tactical battles at their own peril, and that they should brace themselves for epic slowdown.  Perhaps clicking through a few warning boxes in triplicate that read "Are you sure you want to enable tactical battles?," "Are you REALLY sure you want to enable tactical battles?," etc.

Like you, I for one enjoy epic multiplayer games, and it is disappointing this feature will be taken away with no option toggling it back on.

 

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Oh well. That pretty well explains what the day 0 release will entail.

Having said that I'm still quietly optimistic about what the future may bring. As others have said I don't mind watching tactical battles, but if people don't want them then fine! Surely an option can be implemented that simply auto resolves each conflict as it occurs? However I also fully appreciate that Brad and all the good folk at Stardock are focussing on one hell of a Single Player experience, and that's fine by me too.

Right now the seeds have been sown so that, in the future at least, there's the potential for custom servers, modes and whatever else. I must admit it bugs me a little that Brad pretty much wants to ignore MP simply because he doesn't like it himself, but I also respect his preferences.

I suppose I'll leave it like this: Stardock? If at any time in the future you enable Custom servers, for games between friends or whatever else, please give us the option to play the game as we'll choose to. Play testing aside, as Max put it, I enjoy a hairball of a gaming experience. I enjoy matching wits with, and against, people with the full spectrum of options enabled. Civ is a prime example of this! I don't 'think' this is asking too much, since all this stuff is there already... As far as I'm aware it just needs to be enabled. And if that's the case, great! If not you're still the most awesome game developers out there and keep up the great work.

Cheers!

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

How disappointing. I was so excited about this game to play with my buddy and now, is it very sad.