Qualms with 3-B

Some stuff that needs attention

from Elemental Forums

Before I get into the topic of this post, I just wanted to point out that I didn't put this in the Beta Section because I don't know if these are just a changes for 3-B that's being tested or if this is how it's planned to be at launch.

Spells:

I notice now when starting a new game, whether I make my own Sovereign or start with a pre-made one, that I start out with quite a few spells that I can learn right from the start. Some of these are tactical spell that do damage. While I appreciate the power boost and having a little offensive capability I'm also feeling a bit cheated because I didn't have to do much research to gain these spells nor did I have to build any specific research structures since I chose the "Brilliant" trait. It's a little too easy. Notice you start with not one, but two different Fire attack spells if you choose the Fire Spell Book as one of your starting books. One spell is Firebolt and another is Fireball. Also notice none of these spells show any damage ranges. How do I know which one is more powerful? In fact, if you look at the definition for both these spells they only differ by One Word. I would assume that Fireball is an area effect spell while Firebolt is a direct damage spell that hits one target, but the spell description doesn't tell me that. Granted I'm pretty sure this will be fixed and tweaked before launch (I hope).

 

Battle Animations:

During Tactical Battles, I notice that if a unit is attacked from multiple angles that the unit being attacked will move to the unit attacking it to be hit (within it's own square). This looks kinda stupid. I'd say instead of having the unit step up to the attacker to be hit, rather have the attacker move in to the target, strike the target, then move back to it's square. This would make a lot more sense then the current animation of stepping up to the attacker just to be hit.

 

Moving Create a Faction to the editors:

What's the logic behind moving the "Create a Faction" to the Editors? I'd really like to see it moved back to the "Faction Selection" screen. Why? Well, you left "Sovereign Creation" in the Sovereign Selection screen, so why move ONLY faction creation? It doesn't make sense to move one and not the other. If you moved Faction Creation you should move Sovereign Creation as well. I think Faction Creation is important enough that it should have been left where it was in the Faction Selection screen as that makes the most sense. Please consider putting Faction Creation back where it was.

 

Building Editor (not in game yet):  

Notice when we create our own Units that the "Design a Unit" screen is where it should be under the "Training" Tab for raising armies. I would like to see the "Design Your Own Building" Editor added to the "Build" tab where you que up buildings to built in your city when the Full Game launches next month.

 

Can't Cast Tactical Spells:

I can't cast any tactical spells if I do the battle my-self. The AI can cast them if I auto calculate the battle and then click the "Details" tab to read how the battle went. In a actual Tactical battle when I click the "Spells" Tab I have no spell icons present even though I Do Know some tactical spells. I've noticed others saying this same thing, but I saw one reply in another thread where the person says they Can cast tactical spells.

 

Stability:

So far I've played 3 games of 3-B and all of them have crashed at completely random times. My first game I got well into the 200-300 turn range before it crashed. My second game crashed before I hit turn 10. My third game crashed after I won a tactical battle then tried to scroll out to the cloth map view. Of course I completely understand by adding all the new features that went into 3-B you introduced a lot of new crash bugs, so I'm sure this will be addressed in the next week or two. Just in crash fixes alone there's a lot to do. This is probably the main area I would say to concentrate your efforts between now and launch.

------------------------------------------------------------

Frogboy and the Team have done an AMAZING job with everything up to this point. We should all applaud their work and conviction. Especially after them staying so late last night to get this out to us. To help them I think we as well should be concentrating on getting in as many bug reports as we can to try to stream line their efforts to make sure the game is running smooth and crash free by launch. Lest we not forget, the actual launch of the Full Game is less then two months away.

Well done everyone and thanks for your efforts getting us all this far.

~ Raven

 

elemental
72,409 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

an't Cast Tactical Spells:

You have to add them to your favorites, then you should be able to cast them in battle. I suspect that's bug.

oving Create a Faction to the editors:



What's the logic behind moving the "Create a Faction" to the Editors? I'd really like to see it moved back to the "Faction Selection" screen. Why? Well, you left "Sovereign Creation" in the Sovereign Selection screen, so why move ONLY faction creation? It doesn't make sense to move one and not the other. If you moved Faction Creation you should move Sovereign Creation as well. I think Faction Creation is important enough that it should have been left where it was in the Faction Selection screen as that makes the most sense. Please consider putting Faction Creation back where it was.

I actually like that it's been moved. From my understanding of Frogboy's post about it, the Faction creator was moved to allow it to be more complex than just choosing a couple traits and a color and being done with it. I agree to an extent, however, that the sovereign creator should be moved with it.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 1

I actually like that it's been moved. From my understanding of Frogboy's post about it, the Faction creator was moved to allow it to be more complex than just choosing a couple traits and a color and being done with it. I agree to an extent, however, that the sovereign creator should be moved with it.

I actually missed that post and didn't find out that it was moved until late last night. I had just thought it was moved because they were working on it or something (which it seems they are). I'm indeed glad they're making it more complex, that's a big plus. :)

Still, from the perspective of starting a new game and making your Sovereign, making you faction comes next. If anything, when launch comes, just have it be accessible from both places. The Editors will be their own sub set within the game, we know this already, so I'm thinking they'll have all the Editors in same place, which would lead me to think they'll have the Sov Creator in there as well. I don't see anything wrong with having multiple buttons in the game that take you to the same thing. GalCiv 2 did this with it's Ship Creator. You could access it in game during the game, or from the Editors on the main launch screen. Hopefully Elemental will do the same thing with things like the Sov Creator, Building Creator, Unit Creator, etc etc. All accessible from in game AND the Editors from the main menu where you start a game.

Quoting kyogre12, reply 1

You have to add them to your favorites, then you should be able to cast them in battle. I suspect that's bug.

Actually I tried that. I still didn't see them listed as spells I could cast while in a tactical battle. I'll try again and see what happens. Maybe I unlicked the "favorite star" by accident. (I click kinda fast) I'll get back on this one.

CursorFX - Customize your Windows cursor
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Off topic side note; Hell yeah, I got 69 karma...hehehe. No-one give me anymore karma...ever. Well, unless I can get to 666 karma...mwhahaha.

Wait a minute, I hear a baby crying in the distance, brb.

*Raven walks away*

*you hear muffled crunching in the distance*

Yeap..it was a baby!!!

}:)  

+2 Loading…
Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I've tried adding them to my favorites as well and have still had no luck with casting in Tactical battles.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Ok, here is what I found with the favorites thingy, and it was by accident and after much wailing and gnashing of teeth...click ONCE on the star of the spell you want to add, it will highlight for a second and then looks like it deselects, but it does not. Click on another spell and click back on the original one and you will see that it is now the star for the favorites thingy is selected and it is in your favorites.

On a side note: I would prefer to have my entire tactical spellbook available in battle, not just the spells I add to favorites.

 

Hope this helps...

+2 Loading…
Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 1

I actually like that it's been moved. From my understanding of Frogboy's post about it, the Faction creator was moved to allow it to be more complex than just choosing a couple traits and a color and being done with it. I agree to an extent, however, that the sovereign creator should be moved with it.



I actually missed that post and didn't find out that it was moved until late last night. I had just thought it was moved because they were working on it or something (which it seems they are). I'm indeed glad they're making it more complex, that's a big plus.

Still, from the perspective of starting a new game and making your Sovereign, making you faction comes next. If anything, when launch comes, just have it be accessible from both places. The Editors will be their own sub set within the game, we know this already, so I'm thinking they'll have all the Editors in same place, which would lead me to think they'll have the Sov Creator in there as well. I don't see anything wrong with having multiple buttons in the game that take you to the same thing. GalCiv 2 did this with it's Ship Creator. You could access it in game during the game, or from the Editors on the main launch screen. Hopefully Elemental will do the same thing with things like the Sov Creator, Building Creator, Unit Creator, etc etc. All accessible from in game AND the Editors from the main menu where you start a game.

Here's the post, if you haven't already found it: https://forums.elementalgame.com/387207

The problem with the GalCiv2 ship creator in the main menu was that is was gimped. When you were actually playing a game, you got all the research that gave you more space on your ship add guns and stuff to make them awesome. The main menu version you were much more limited.

Personally, I think it's a good way to try to get more people familiar with the editor tools. Plenty of people never use them when they're offer for other games; now whenever you create a faction, "oh hey, there's that map editor too, maybe I'll try that." Just my thoughts.

Quoting kyogre12, reply 1

You have to add them to your favorites, then you should be able to cast them in battle. I suspect that's bug.



Actually I tried that. I still didn't see them listed as spells I could cast while in a tactical battle. I'll try again and see what happens. Maybe I unlicked the "favorite star" by accident. (I click kinda fast) I'll get back on this one.

My guess is that you were in the wrong spell book. There's actually two. If you go to the "Research Spells" screen or you click the little button next to the spell research progress bar, you go to the first spell book. If you try to "favorite" spells from there, it won't work for some reason. If you click on your sovereign, then the "Spells" tab, and then the little spell book icon in there, you go to the second spell book. It's exactly the same as the first, except that if you "favorite" a spell from there, it will work. Took me a while to figure that one out.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Building Editor (not in game yet):

Notice when we create our own Units that the "Design a Unit" screen is where it should be under the "Training" Tab for raising armies. I would like to see the "Design Your Own Building" Editor added to the "Build" tab where you que up buildings to built in your city when the Full Game launches next month.

Buildings are tiles which you'll make in the tile editor. It doesn't make sense to be able to design buildings on the fly, since you don't research stuff for them like you do units. Not to mention it's way more complex than a unit.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Icepick, reply 5
Ok, here is what I found with the favorites thingy, and it was by accident and after much wailing and gnashing of teeth...click ONCE on the star of the spell you want to add, it will highlight for a second and then looks like it deselects, but it does not. Click on another spell and click back on the original one and you will see that it is now the star for the favorites thingy is selected and it is in your favorites.

On a side note: I would prefer to have my entire tactical spellbook available in battle, not just the spells I add to favorites.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Thanks Icepick! I am finally able to cast spells in tactical battles!

k1

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

I almost gave Raven a karma to spite him but even I can't mess with the number 69.... dude!!!!!

 

At any rate, man, figuring out how to use tactical battle spells is way too confusing.  Hope that gets fixed. 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Icepick, reply 5

On a side note: I would prefer to have my entire tactical spellbook available in battle, not just the spells I add to favorites.

 

Hope this helps...

 

To me it should be a no brainer, once a tactical spell is learned it should automatically go into the battle spell book tab. With the option of removing it being in the big version, instead of vice versa.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Gorstagg, reply 10

Quoting Icepick, reply 5
On a side note: I would prefer to have my entire tactical spellbook available in battle, not just the spells I add to favorites.

 

Hope this helps...
 

To me it should be a no brainer, once a tactical spell is learned it should automatically go into the battle spell book tab. With the option of removing it being in the big version, instead of vice versa.

 

well the point is you have to be able to cast any tactical spells

 

favorites are just... favorites not the only option

 

once you can cast any spell accessing the spell book  how you select the favorites or if they are automatica doesnt really matter to me

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Regarding the animations, the units should take up a larger portion of the squares. In fact, if you look at most tilebased games, the units almost always fill the squares for this reason.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Dude ... SOME units WILL fill the entire square :p .... not a single soldier though

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

When I played the fire bolt spell needed research. It was the first spell I earned. -Jeremy Sr.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 6

Here's the post, if you haven't already found it: https://forums.elementalgame.com/387207

The problem with the GalCiv2 ship creator in the main menu was that is was gimped. When you were actually playing a game, you got all the research that gave you more space on your ship add guns and stuff to make them awesome. The main menu version you were much more limited.

Personally, I think it's a good way to try to get more people familiar with the editor tools. Plenty of people never use them when they're offer for other games; now whenever you create a faction, "oh hey, there's that map editor too, maybe I'll try that." Just my thoughts.

That's true, and well said, and I agree with that too. I just don't see why it can't be in Both places. In GalCiv 2 I used the Ship Editor on the Main Menu to lay out the basic shape of my designed ships so I wouldn't have to stop and build the body from scratch in the middle of a game and lose my concentration on what I was doing strategically. In the ship editor in game then all I'd have to do was load up on weapons and special tech. As you point out it's true that when you use it in game you get more space for stuff, but from the designer on the main page space wasn't much of an issue since you weren't in an active game. I liked that I could get to it from both places.

Seeing as how Elemental will have a Ton more editors then GalCiv 2 I'm thinking that on the Main Menu for the game they'll have a button named "Forge" or "Editors" or something that when you click it you'll go to a sub menu that has All the editors listed and from there we'll be able to make whatever we want for use in game (minus weapons and abilities I'm sure) but the basic layout can be done there for those who don't want to do it in the middle of a game. Sometimes though I don't mind or actually like to build a brand new design while in the middle of a game, it just depends on my mood.

On a side note though, when I did my Mod for GalCiv 2 I made all the ships for all my custom factions from the designer on the main menu. Since I didn't have to fire up the whole game and get into it just to see what a ship would look like before I added it to a custom faction it made things go a whole lot faster. At the time I was making close to a hundred ship designs to replace the ones my custom enemies would use by default. It also required renaming my custom designs to names of the designs the AI would use then replacing it's files with my own. It was a lot of work but the end result in game was worth it. I could pick to fight the "Borg" as an enemy and they would build "Borg" ships instead of building the ones the AI had coded for each factions color.

Quoting Annatar11, reply 7

Buildings are tiles which you'll make in the tile editor. It doesn't make sense to be able to design buildings on the fly, since you don't research stuff for them like you do units. Not to mention it's way more complex than a unit.

Ahh, that's true. Honestly, I didn't think of that. I kind of hope they make some kind of distinction between "Building Tiles" and other types of "Land Tiles" though. This will make it much easier to redesign the buildings my factions will use in game instead of the ones they have now. I plan on having unique looking buildings for all the custom factions I make. No two factions in any game will have the same building designs when I'm done. For example, every single faction will have it's own unique looking Palace, Stables, Work Pits, etc etc. In some cases I can think of this would actually be preferable to do while in game that way I could  match the building exactly as I wanted to the tile of land I was going to build it on and make alterations "on the fly" as it were.

I honestly don't see the harm in having them accessible both from in game and from the main editors menu from the Main Menu of the game.

 Edit: Wait a minute. You DO research stuff for buildings!!! What about when you research a New Building? Or when you research a Upgrade to a Existing Building? I.E. Huts to Houses. I don't see anything wrong with being able to re-design how my Houses or other city buildings look from in game. Actually that could be the preferable way to do it since you'll be able to see how they look in a city Right Then without having to start up a game and get a city going.

I'm actually going to have to say I think there would be a Great Advantage in doing it "on the fly".

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Icepick, reply 5
Ok, here is what I found with the favorites thingy, and it was by accident and after much wailing and gnashing of teeth...click ONCE on the star of the spell you want to add, it will highlight for a second and then looks like it deselects, but it does not. Click on another spell and click back on the original one and you will see that it is now the star for the favorites thingy is selected and it is in your favorites.

On a side note: I would prefer to have my entire tactical spellbook available in battle, not just the spells I add to favorites.

 

Hope this helps...

Thank you, my friend. Good looking out on the info. I'll try that next and see what happens.

Quoting Admiral100, reply 9
I almost gave Raven a karma to spite him but even I can't mess with the number 69.... dude!!!!!

Dude, why would you want to spite me? :P Besides...it's just not right to take away a man's 69 when he's got one...LoL.

Quoting Gorstagg, reply 10

To me it should be a no brainer, once a tactical spell is learned it should automatically go into the battle spell book tab. With the option of removing it being in the big version, instead of vice versa.

Agreed.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

If nothing else, the faction selection screen needs a label explaining how to make custom factions, or a button to launch the faction editor. Someone who hasn't played a previous beta right now would have no intuitive way of knowing that faction customization exists (or will exist once it's put in).

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 17
If nothing else, the faction selection screen needs a label explaining how to make custom factions, or a button to launch the faction editor. Someone who hasn't played a previous beta right now would have no intuitive way of knowing that faction customization exists (or will exist once it's put in).

That's a good point too, Tridus. :thumbsup:

I didn't even think about that. Guess those poor schmoes shoulda got here sooner ;)

hehe J/K schmoes :P

 

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top



Battle Animations:

During Tactical Battles, I notice that if a unit is attacked from multiple angles that the unit being attacked will move to the unit attacking it to be hit (within it's own square). This looks kinda stupid. I'd say instead of having the unit step up to the attacker to be hit, rather have the attacker move in to the target, strike the target, then move back to it's square. This would make a lot more sense then the current animation of stepping up to the attacker just to be hit.

~ Raven

In my opinion the tiles should be small enough so that no unit would need to move to strike an opponent. A human / darkling / spider drone takes up one tile. Big spider takes 2x2. Troll takes 3x3. Slag takes 6x6 and so on. You're absolutely right that the current system looks really silly.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sir_Linque, reply 19

quoting post

Battle Animations:

During Tactical Battles, I notice that if a unit is attacked from multiple angles that the unit being attacked will move to the unit attacking it to be hit (within it's own square). This looks kinda stupid. I'd say instead of having the unit step up to the attacker to be hit, rather have the attacker move in to the target, strike the target, then move back to it's square. This would make a lot more sense then the current animation of stepping up to the attacker just to be hit.

~ Raven


In my opinion the tiles should be small enough so that no unit would need to move to strike an opponent. A human / darkling / spider drone takes up one tile. Big spider takes 2x2. Troll takes 3x3. Slag takes 6x6 and so on. You're absolutely right that the current system looks really silly.

:thumbsup: If doable. From what I see, would make the code much more interesting, and the AI programming likewise harder, yet if they can do it I'd like it.

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm in complete agreement with you Raven. Although I would take the visuals in tactical combat a step further. I posted this in Brad's recent thread about tactical combat.

"I'm also curious about how you plan to have tactical battles actually look. I would assume the current model is just filler until something more polished is implemented. Might I suggest making a partially dynamic battle sequence for the visuals of an attack and counter attack.  This would create six visual categories of battles.

1 vs 1

few vs few

several vs several

many vs many

1 vs many (same visuals for 1 vs few or 1 vs several)

few vs many (same visuals for few vs several or several vs many)

The dynamic portion of the visuals would only require that the same exact sequence isn't played out for every single battle. This is one thing that always bothers me in games. I hate it when every single attack or death looks the same. Although I would take a single well done sequence to what you see in most turn based tactical combat.

I would think this could also be a solution to your problem with creating distinct combat animations for the numerous combatants in Elemental. Some creatures would still require some special attention of course, since a dragon or spider wouldn't fight the same way as a soldier but I think this is worth some consideration."

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Keeping everything in square shapes, NxN, shouldn't be too hard and I honestly think it would be worth it, the current system is so mundane. If units are always square shaped, the AI wouldn't have to adapt that much and you wouldn't have to worry about different facing directions causing different tile patterns in the code.