Magic system criticism

from Elemental Forums

Digging the game so far, but I wanted to make some comments on the magic system, which has not impressed me too much.

 

Few things:

 

--There are not enough overland enchantments. For example, a good player should have enchantments like "Heaven's boon - all units within casters territory heal to full at end of turn" an evil player might have "Death's Shadow" At the end of every turn all enemy units in caster's territory will take X damage. Just one example, but really feels like the magic system is lacking the epic feeling you'd hope for in a game such as this.

 

--Many spells are dependant on shards, which can be very hard to find. If you decide you want to use a game plan based on a certain spell color there is a good chance you will not find said spell color until very late game, or not at all.

 

--Would like to see a greater variety of summoning spells and also spells to counter summoned units. Also, spells like MOM's phantom warriors would be nice - summoning a unit just for one specific battle.

 

--Spells that have a cost along with a benefit - such as sacrificing population to gain zombies - should also take some time to complete as well, or perhaps certain buildings which would allow for such spells to be created.

 

 

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree for the most part.

 

Although i think the shards are supposed to be Finite and have to be fought over.

 

Also sacrificing pop/necromatic magic would be awesome to have.

 

Good/Evil i do not think applies in this game.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I like the idea of not knowing which shards you will have at the beginning of the game.  The last thing I want is a typical TBS game where doing "ABC" will give you "XYZ" only to find out that "ABC" isn't as good as "ABD" and that you're the only noob that doesn't know that.  I think the game should be decided based on who is able to cope with their situations better, now who knows the best string of actions to execute.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with what you're saying.

I strongly agree about the shard requirement issue.

The shards are ONLY supposed to be needed for the most powerful spells and ONLY because they are "Game ending" spells.

I.e. the shards allow us to let players who know they're going to win the game eventually because they control so much but don't feel like grinding down the survivors a way to just wipe them out in a fun way.

Unfortunately... some of our spells went a bit overboard. I mean, fireball requiring a shard? No. That's wasn't the intent.

One of the things you guys are running into in this beta that is, admittedly, new from our other betas is that when stuff gets checked in, the initial values are not being put in by me. In our other games, when things got checked into the public tree, they "temp values" were put in by the designer.

Because Elemental has so much stuff, there's a lot of stuff checked in that I didn't get to see until you guys do.  That's how you ended up with super powerful creatures on turn 1 or spells that require shards to cast that really are spells you shouldn't have to research.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

It isn't any fun to make a sovereign with fire magic and not be able to find a fire shard.  Let's say you make a sovereign with all types of magic but fire, and then you only find fire shards -- again, no fun at all.  You are better off making a sovereign without any magic schools at that point, or spending all your points to get every school of magic.  Neither provides a great deal of flexibility in sovereign design.

It would be nice if this dependency didn't exist so that you could still cast fire spells even without the shard.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Butterknife, reply 4
It isn't any fun to make a sovereign with fire magic and not be able to find a fire shard.  Let's say you make a sovereign with all types of magic but fire, and then you only find fire shards -- again, no fun at all.  You are better off making a sovereign without any magic schools at that point, or spending all your points to get every school of magic.  Neither provides a great deal of flexibility in sovereign design.

It would be nice if this dependency didn't exist so that you could still cast fire spells even without the shard.
End of Butterknife's quote

I'm guessing you didn't see Frogboy's reply.  Shards are only required for the most powerful (read: game ending) spells.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

perhaps a compromise situation is desirable? such as shards making certain spells easier to learn but not essential, especially in the mid game. then even a player who has intended to specialize has time to adapt and the player's hand is guided but not forced.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
The shards are ONLY supposed to be needed for the most powerful spells and ONLY because they are "Game ending" spells.

I.e. the shards allow us to let players who know they're going to win the game eventually because they control so much but don't feel like grinding down the survivors a way to just wipe them out in a fun way.
End of Frogboy's quote

Neat idea!

If you play on a massive map, are there more shards available?  If so, do the shard requirements of these spells go up too?  And will there be an option in the game setup to control the number of shards?

Might be interesting to have a game setup where multiple players can gain enough shards to all use these spells.  Interesting, but you'd also want to have enough control over world creation to not have it be the case if you don't want it.

 

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting viper34j, reply 2
I like the idea of not knowing which shards you will have at the beginning of the game.  The last thing I want is a typical TBS game where doing "ABC" will give you "XYZ" only to find out that "ABC" isn't as good as "ABD" and that you're the only noob that doesn't know that.  I think the game should be decided based on who is able to cope with their situations better, now who knows the best string of actions to execute.
End of viper34j's quote

I agree with this. One thing I hate most about rts games is there becomes a certain template to build and play and everyone eventually ends up playing that way and anyone else who plays differently is called a noob or fool or moron. Even in turn based games with fixed tech trees this can happen

It is also why I don't like set pattern tech trees. Let things come randomly. If I research fire in this game and get Flaming arrow, I don't want that to be the sequence every single game afterwards. Researching fire might lead to Flaming Pigs or Flaming Duck Bombers etc.

We shouldn't be researching specific SPELLS but just elements (hince the name elemental) of those spells. I pick Fire then the game will randomly give me a Fire spell based on my research values. I research Wind, then the game will give me a random spell based on my research values. I research Sorcery and the game gives me a random spell based on my research values and on an on with the rest of the elements and spell catagories. This is how you could play Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri if you wanted to. You picked a PATH OF RESEARCH and then the game RANDOMLY gave you something based on your research points and values. I love Alhpa Centauri.

I'm so afraid Elemental is going to have a SET TECH TREE that it's just going to be another ruined attempt at creating a better Fantasy strategy wargame than MOM. Even MOM allowed you to pick your spells and that's the one thing I wished they hadn't done. RANDOM is so much more realistic and the unknown is the best part of gaming.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm guessing you didn't see Frogboy's reply. Shards are only required for the most powerful (read: game ending) spells.
End of quote

Yeah, I was writing up my post when he posted that.  I think having shards required for only the most powerful spells should be a good way to fix what I was talking about.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Are shards a resource that can be trade? I could see that being a powerful incentive to another kingdom. Cutting off the trade of a certain type of shard.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Phantom warriors was an awesome spell in MoM. Hopefully tactical battle spells will have such gems included.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I think shards are quite balanced *provided as frogboy said they take out the requirment for some spells if not most* because they also give you special buildings etc. perhaps an essence boost as extra incentive to control them since most spells will not require them till end game? combine the essence boost with the special structures they become incredibly important early game as well.