auboy105

One of my biggest worries about this game so far!

One of my biggest worries about this game so far!

So I was hoping this game would prevent city spamming and end game uber city management by making cities rare and unique but I am not seeing this so far in the beta. I see several cities placed right next to each other popping up all over the place! Can some one familiar with the beta tell me what I am missing and please help alleviate my fears that this game will be no different than other city spamming games? Are there no limits here?

28,615 views 33 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3


There won't be a "tax" system per say. Instead, we need to reward players more for building up fewer, bigger cities.

My wish is that building one huge city state with surrounding forts would be a viable path for an "all magic" Sovereign.

Fighting for Shards and other special magic locations is much more fitting and epic than fighting for some random city someone built. It is War of Magic and not War of the Mundane after all.

Reply #27 Top

Wars do include figing for cities though to get to those relics Hound. I think it was Guerring who had all those famous paintings and relics from Paris during WW2. :) Random cities are also resources of population and production. Everything is viable and should be not just the quest for the holy grail.

Reply #28 Top

When I hear city spamming I remember Civilization I as how you could make 30 one level cities and do better than making several higher level ones. I remember seeing a screenshot of someone who did that.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Austinvn, reply 23

Instead, we need to reward players more for building up fewer, bigger cities.
Brad already has the right idea here; there's no need to punish players for spamming cities. You just need to give players a better option instead of building new cities, such as improving existing ones.

Say I have a level 5 capital, two level 3 cities, and 500 gold to spend. I can spend that gold on a new building for my capital, or spend it getting the 3's to a higher level, or found a new level 1 city. To cut down on city spam, you just need to make the first two options more effective than the third.

So what if, for example, there were a bunch of uber buildings only available in level 5+ cities, each of which costs 500g and produces oh, say +20 of some resource, more than you'd get out of an entire level 1 city. As long as my capital has room left, I'll be saving my gold for those buildings rather than spamming new cities. And when my capital is full, I'll be spending my gold on the level 3 cities, getting them up to 5 so they too can have their uber buildings. Sure you could spend that gold on a bunch of level 1 cities, but it just wouldn't be the best option for improving your empire, players (and well designed AIs) will generally go with the smart choice.

If city spam is happening, then it's probably because it is the smart choice - you don't need artificial limitations to fix this, you just need to rebalance the game such that it's no longer a better idea to build a new level 1 city instead of improving existing level 5's.

Practically speaking, I think the main cause of city spam, right now, is materials* - unless you take the lumbermill trait, the only way to produce materials is a bunch of little workshops any level 1 city can build. Materials and gold are the primary 'economic' resources used to make the buildings that produce more resources, and while level 5 cities can produce several times the gold of level 1s (thus providing an incentive to level up cities rather than spam them), my level 5 capital still produces 1 material per turn just like any level 1 city - this is a problem. So even if I really, really want to develop my capital fully and I really don't want to spam a bunch of little cities, I still have to city spam just to produce the materials to develop my capital with all those essential economic buildings. This isn't a flaw in the game mechanics, it's just a lack of material producing buildings above city level 1, easily fixed by giving everyone lumbermills back and making the trait do something else (a third material boost on top of that, faster build times?).

Now, materials aren't the only problem, just the biggest one at the moment. There are other changes that'd help - increasing the cost of new cities, starting with less gold, adding more buildings only available at higher city levels (like the hypothetical 500g uber building mentioned above), there isn't any one magic change that would fix city spam. But these are all easy changes to make, and such balance fixes are all that's really needed, not new game mechanics like city maintenance costs, paid upgrades, taxes, etc. I'm not saying those are bad ideas, just unnecessary when a few balance fixes to existing game mechanics would accomplish the same thing.

*Edit: I'm deliberately ignoring another major cause of city spam, building level 1 cities just to get some essential resource - because, I hope, this'll be going away anyway with the promised changes to resource gathering.

k1

This post I think sums it up very nicely. Increasing materials from bigger cities in particular, as well as allowing access to resources without necessarily having a city on it (influence, watch towers or whatever) would fix most of the reasons for favouring many small cities over a few large ones. The other main driver is food, but if a village is there just to provide food, and suffers in all other ways, that sounds like a good compromise between one or other extreme.

Reply #30 Top

well, on the other hand, "village spamming" for food IS actually realistic. We have swaths of farmland and that's far away from cities, you know? 

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
I'm with BlackhatHedgehog on much of this.

Each city costs more to build than the next. It's just that you start with so much $$.  

I popped it up to 1000 to start to give myself a little extra time to start doing a proper job on the balancing of the cities because, the economic buildup is ridiculously slow right now.

There won't be a "tax" system per say. Instead, we need to reward players more for building up fewer, bigger cities.

Have you considered a diminishing return from research buildings?

Biggest amount of research from one city is calculated at 100%

2nd-95%, 3rd-90%, 4th-80% 5th-70% 6 and onwards 10% less per city until you reach 10%.

You could do the same with gold and production, but not as much,  say 5% drop until 50%.

This would slow down the advantages with spamming cities, and focus on larger more powerful cities. You could refer to it as a kind of Bureaucracy degradation.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog, reply 30
well, on the other hand, "village spamming" for food IS actually realistic. We have swaths of farmland and that's far away from cities, you know? 

 

That is true, but if most of the world is barren it wouldn't and shouldn't work in Elemental.

Reply #33 Top

Quoting sjwt, reply 31



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 3
I'm with BlackhatHedgehog on much of this.

Each city costs more to build than the next. It's just that you start with so much $$.  

I popped it up to 1000 to start to give myself a little extra time to start doing a proper job on the balancing of the cities because, the economic buildup is ridiculously slow right now.

There won't be a "tax" system per say. Instead, we need to reward players more for building up fewer, bigger cities.



Have you considered a diminishing return from research buildings?

Biggest amount of research from one city is calculated at 100%

2nd-95%, 3rd-90%, 4th-80% 5th-70% 6 and onwards 10% less per city until you reach 10%.

You could do the same with gold and production, but not as much,  say 5% drop until 50%.

This would slow down the advantages with spamming cities, and focus on larger more powerful cities. You could refer to it as a kind of Bureaucracy degradation.

 

I'd say that's pretty much what they did in Civ III & IV as the more settlements you made the more it cost you in income but not research. I guess it would represent more population overflow of people needing work, you putting them to work and like many in our own workforce today are just lazy bums who just want a paycheck. So it costs the government, taxpayers and employers more money for these lazy bum increased populations.