magnus333

Demigod balance thread

Demigod balance thread

Below is my opinion of mostly minor tweaks to balance the demigods and create diversity. 

I think this is a two step process.  Step 1 is adjusting talents (slight nerfs, buffs and revamps for totally useless stuff).  Step 2 is a complete revamp of itemization.  Despite some minor issues the demigods themselves are fairly balanced, I would say they are 90% of the way there.  Itemization however is more like 10%.

  • TB - Very balanced overall, if a little difficult to play or learn.  He has distinctly different play styles that can all be effective.  The only thing I would change on Tb is increasing the duration of Frost Nova 1 by up to half a second, or reducing cast time.  Most people aren't aware that level 1 doesn't actually help you escape because of the hidden animation cooldown.  
  • UB - Slightly OP and very bland, he really only has 1 good build. 
    • Only UB and LE have > 6.0 base speeds.  UB has both a slowing talent and a speed talent in addition.  He shouldn't have all 3 as passive abilities. I would probably just nerf the base speed to 6.0.  
    • Acclimation is effectively a passive buff late game.  An internal cool down of say 10s so it can only be up 50% of the time would alleviate that.
    • Grasp is just broken.  First, it can be canceled while retaining the stun.  Second, it's stupid to take more than 1 level of it.  Third, a 2s full stun at level 5 is extremely good.  I would remove the ability to cancel it, decrease the hp drained at rank 1 slightly but increase the hp drained at 2 and 3.  Lastly, scale the stun duration, maybe 0.5 at rank1, 1.0 at rank2 and 2.0 at rank 3.
  • Regulus - Close to balanced IMO, but extremely easy to play poorly, he's also noob bait which gives him more of a bad rep than he deserves imo.  He's close to having 2 distinct play styles (ability spam and AA) but one of them is ineffective due to current itemization.
    • His level 15 abilities all suck except mark.  If anything the random stun should be at the end of the AF tree since it's based on # of attacks and AF usually stacks haste. 
    • He has 2 activated slows (mines@10 and mark) and one passive slow while he has 0 speed increases or stuns.  I would just buff the passive slow to have a second ability (just like UB's slow) and end in an actually good talent (like UB's).    
  • Rook - This guy is almost the pinnacle of balance.  His greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. The only problem is that structural transfer after rank 1 is utterly worthless.  No dg should have a whole line of nearly completely worthless talents. 
  • DA - His ability spam build is very good, it costs a lot of mana but it's devastating so that's fine.  His problem is that he lacks diversity.  He has all the talents for a cool AA build (like reg) except that the devs forgot that melee characters will take a lot of damage vs ranged characters (like reg) and he has no way of mitigating that which kills AA (itemization kills it as well but I'm assuming itemization is fixed in my little theory land).  All of his AA abilities should have a passive life drain effect that stacks pretty heavily towards the end allowing him to be in melee range.  Right now, literally half his talents are practically worthless.
  • Oak - Ya, if there is every a demigod 2 the storyline clearly has oak winning the demigod 1 tournament and becoming a god.  Then he kills some other god(s) because he's bored and now there is a new tournament, hence Demigod 2.  He has good diversity of builds.
    • Shield 3 should be 5s, not 6.  Being able to shield lock AND tp with immunity is stupid.  Maybe at level 4 shield.
    • Last stand, while fun, is counter-productive.  That's ok though, it helps noobs learn.
  • QoT - Easily the most underpowered DG of the bunch.  She has way too many minion talents to allow for an effective minion build, and her ability build is way too mana intensive, even with hungarling's.  The real problem is that she's easily the most micro management intensive dg, which would be great if we were all Korean, but we are not.
    • Mulch shouldn't require a target.  Auto kill the lowest health one plz.  Also I would make it instant.
    • Shield and mulch should have no animation cooldown interrupting movement
    • The entire uproot tree is worthless, even level 1 can't be situationally good (like rook's structural transfer)
    • One of the minion trees (compost or entourage) should become a passive or aura of some kind.
    • Tribute is a cool idea, but it's essentially worthless for how late in a game it comes.  I would give each rank of entourage a mini-tribute, with the final rank applying to the entire team.  
    • TB can be effective as either fire or ice, without having to constantly change forms.  QoT should be similar in having a minion form and an ability form.  Pro people can come up with a super micro hybrid build on their own but the two best abilities (shield and ground spikes) shouldn't immediately force most players into a 5s stance-dance the rest of the game.
    • Even after all this QoT would need to be reviewed.  So much would change...
  • Sedna - Sedna is pretty good as-is.  She has so many good talents that her diversity comes in which ones she gets in what order.  The problem is, she's a general and has literally the worst minion build of all generals which limits her diversity to just an ability build.  QoT's has 4 talent lines devoted to minions (5 if we include moral), Sedna has 1 with a small minion passive tacked onto a really good passive ability line (again, not including moral). 
    • Yeti's need to do something really cool besides do meaningless amount of damage and then die.  Something cooler than say, exploding for a lot of damage but only after 5 talents points have been invested in them.
  • Erebus - Despite having only 2 small minion talent lines he has a pretty decent minion build.  His ability builds are great. A little too great some might argue.  I think he's pretty close to balanced.  Like UB he has a base speed increase, a slow and a movement increase, but unlike UB his slow and movement increase (swarm) are both activated on cooldowns with significant cost.  I think he's fairly balanced as-is.
    • I would delay mist removing all debuffs till a later rank, it's a bit too powerful at level 1.  
  • Oculus - Ah my favorite DG.  Right now 4 of his 7 talent lines are bugged.  He has no diversity at all and only 1 good build.  He'd have the worst minion build of all if it wasn't for the fact that after 5 points his minions become really good by virtue of how much they suck (dying fast).  Before that they are nothing special AND they come with the drawback of 'expiring' early unlike shamblers or yetis.  Oak and Erebus have 'free' minions that have proven to be useful enough to justify them sometimes.  All of the activated minions (shamblers, yetis, balls) are never seen, unless the player is a total noob.  All of them need something cooler to justify their cost, especially oc's balls since they have a drawback.
    • I would give the balls a base explosion when they die, that scales up per rank.  Maybe 50, 100, 150, 200 per ball per rank.  Then they jump to 400 at 15 and have one other cool small effect, maybe their zaps start to chain, or the explosion stops enemy movement (not a stun or interrupt, just a movement impair of which this game has 0).  Actually I would give them a mini chain lighting at 15 and give the yetis a movement impair at 15.  Shamblers already explode and heal a ton on an activated ability.
    • It's obvious that sacrifice was modeled after acclimation, yet sacrifice sucks.  Maybe if after being hit for 500 damage ALL damage done to oc for 5s healed allies for 40% it might be worth the points.  Including minions (except balls because that would be counter intuitive).

 

That's it.  Mostly minor stuff here and there, except QoT.  I'd really like to see every dg have at least 2 viable builds.  To that end, itemization would need to be completely overhauled.  It would be nice if all items had a little health and mana and than they varied based on utility from that point.  It would be nice if there were more than 2 items that increased movement speed, or lowered cooldowns, or increased crit rate, or gave a lifesteal effect. 

If all 5 slots could be filled with items that each gave some hp/mana but say, DA could grab several items that increased lifesteal,  crit and avoidance we could see more AA builds.  Same with reg, only he would want speed, faster attacks and crit.  If they could do that without totally gimping hp/mana because they didn't buy the 3 hp/mana items everyone else does it would certainly increase diversity.  Being able to build on a SoR build rook with further cooldown decrease items and armor/avoidance would be fun.

48,535 views 88 replies
Reply #51 Top

Lowest armor is Rook, but I do agree that LE should keep 6.3.

Who decided that a walking castle shouldn't have any armor? Probably the single dumbest thing about DG. He doesn't need to have so many HPs, if they feel he needs balancing, but he should have higher armor.

Reply #52 Top

I like the idea of getting small lists at a time everyone can agree upon rather then everyone yelling what they want. 

So what should we work toward agreeing with first?

My only 100% have to recommend change would be to acclimation. The silent cooldown on it would be a great fix. Allowing it to only proc every say...30-40 seconds would make it a great ability but not ridiculously OP.

Reply #53 Top

You guys clearly haven't developed games before if you think that

1) a general community consensus is going to achieve balance

and

2) there will ever be a general community consensus

 

Anyway, my opinion is that nothing should change, the game is ultimately balanced enough.  If things were going to change then it would be cool if the diversity was increased and useless stuff was replaced with useful stuff.  There is too much useless stuff in this game.

Reply #55 Top

While I.... "disagree" with

Anyway those are my thoughts. I'm not really going to discuss anything with anyone, I think most of you are idiots and couldn't balance yourselves on your own two feet, much less balance a complex array of mathematical abilities and formulas.
(o_O ) I can understand MAGNUS' point. There will always be disagreement on various things in the community. Ultimately there has to be "one guy" who has to decide what should be implemented (GPG or Stardock).

It's just like politics. Yikes.

Reply #56 Top

While I'm sure we can all sympathize with MAGNUS's point. The end result of his approach is that nothing changes. I don't like that as the ultimate outcome.

Reply #57 Top

Well if we are talking entire community consensus I don't think anyone would disagree with:

  • Regulus and Demon Assassin getting an increase to there base speed of 6.3
  • Queen of Thorns and Torch Bearer increasing there base mana pools by 500

Theses are the changes I would like to see changed and they require little to no effort by GPG.

Reply #58 Top

I still feel Acclimation needs to be looked at. Its stupidly OP. Get that and the Bulwark and why even play anymore?

Reply #59 Top

I am totally against giving QoT 500 more mana, that will do next to nothing to increase her effective mana which is the real problem and any change to her at all will give the devs justification to 'wait and see how it plays out' before looking at her again in another year.

Reply #60 Top

Quoting OMG_ZEX, reply 57
Well if we are talking entire community consensus I don't think anyone would disagree with:


Regulus and Demon Assassin getting an increase to there base speed of 6.3
Queen of Thorns and Torch Bearer increasing there base mana pools by 500
Theses are the changes I would like to see changed and they require little to no effort by GPG.

I definitely agree with you, though imho Torch Bearer needs a faster Ice-to-Fire mode change and a Frost Nova Cast time reduction more than a base mana pool increase, but whatever works for me.

Like you, i don't think we can expect anything more than this kind of minimal changes from GPG, sadly.

Reply #61 Top

Quoting GM-MAGNUS333, reply 59

Anyway, I am totally against giving QoT 500 more mana, that will do next to nothing to increase her effective mana which is the real problem and any change to her at all will give the devs justification to 'wait and see how it plays out' before looking at her again in another year.

Okey fine be the one idiot that would disagree.

Reply #63 Top

Quoting OMG_ZEX, reply 61

Quoting GM-MAGNUS333, reply 59
Anyway, I am totally against giving QoT 500 more mana, that will do next to nothing to increase her effective mana which is the real problem and any change to her at all will give the devs justification to 'wait and see how it plays out' before looking at her again in another year.


Okey fine be the one idiot that would disagree.

He probably feels the same way about people who think his suggestion of putting UBs speed at 6.0 would turn the poor thing into a squishy feeding machine...

I like you man, so I won't say how I feel bout folks saying stuff like "Beast has to be fast!  If he wasn't fast, he might get kited (how do you kite a beast with Spit II+? Is there a replay?) or have to get a speed item... or play slightly more cautiously... or god forbid not be able to max out ooze and spit by level 10 every time and actually have to put 2 points into his super awesome passive skill to be able to get away..."

Good lord, it was comical to hear how upset people were at the prospect of Beast having any sort of weakness.  "He doesn't have a mass stun!"

Oh golly... don't know what Magnus was thinking suggesting the most powerful demigod should get a minor nerf.

Reply #65 Top

Quoting Thundercles, reply 63



Quoting OMG_ZEX,
reply 61

Quoting GM-MAGNUS333, reply 59
Anyway, I am totally against giving QoT 500 more mana, that will do next to nothing to increase her effective mana which is the real problem and any change to her at all will give the devs justification to 'wait and see how it plays out' before looking at her again in another year.


Okey fine be the one idiot that would disagree.


He probably feels the same way about people who think his suggestion of putting UBs speed at 6.0 would turn the poor thing into a squishy feeding machine...

I like you man, so I won't say how I feel bout folks saying stuff like "Beast has to be fast!  If he wasn't fast, he might get kited (how do you kite a beast with Spit II+? Is there a replay?) or have to get a speed item... or play slightly more cautiously... or god forbid not be able to max out ooze and spit by level 10 every time and actually have to put 2 points into his super awesome passive skill to be able to get away..."

Good lord, it was comical to hear how upset people were at the prospect of Beast having any sort of weakness.  "He doesn't have a mass stun!"

Oh golly... don't know what Magnus was thinking suggesting the most powerful demigod should get a minor nerf.

Well lets just say if his speed gets nerfed I wouldn't be able to play my pure ooze beast anymore. The diversity in beasts different builds would be reduced hybrids.

Reply #68 Top

Quoting OMG_ZEX, reply 65


Well lets just say if his speed gets nerfed I wouldn't be able to play my pure ooze beast anymore. The diversity in beasts different builds would be reduced hybrids.

 

Good point...

However, I'm willing to let you make that sacrifice so we can get more demigod variety.   :grin:

Reply #69 Top

Every game I host is UB free. Just sayin.

Reply #70 Top

Thanks for emphasizing our skills!

Reply #71 Top

Mmmm, UB greatness relies on his ability to get into melee range to deal all his Ooze-autoattack damage. With all the slowing skills present in the game, if we buff Regulus and Da to 6.3 base speed and nerf UB to 6.0, we suddenly have a melee monster almost anyone can safely stay away and escape from.

That said, a base speed of 6.0 for Unclean Beast would be perfectly fine if Inner Beast movement bonus got increased by 5/10/15 % by IB rank I/II/III respectively. That would actually be great to enforce players spec some Inner Beast early, instead of the usual max Spit/Ooze till lvl 10. Foul Grasp I could use a reduction to 1-1.5 secs duration too, but that's another story.

Reply #72 Top

The game isn't about escaping though. It's about holding flags, leveling up, and getting gold, all of which can be done sitting still in a lane. Speed has its uses, but if you're a really strong character like UB or Rook, you need a low(er) speed to compensate. Beast has a speed increasing skill AND a skill that decreases enemy move speed. He really doesn't need to be as fast as he is. 

Reply #73 Top

The one strong argument you can make for UB having 6.3 is that his natural speed allows him to survive 2v1 or 3v1 ganks by outrunning those who are chasing him long enough to get supported.

Erebus: Batswarm, Bite, Mist, Mass Charm

Oak: Shield III

Sedna: Silence + Port, Heal III + Healing Wind can keep her alive pretty long

Occulus: Blast Off

Queen: Mulch + Shield, Cloak of Night

DA: Warpstrike or Swap (you can warpstrike behind you to a creep, or warpstrike a middle tower then run past valor, or swap with an enemy and run that way).

Rook: Boulder Roll + Towers can keep 2v1 back for a little while assuming he is in his tower farm

TB: Frost Nova or Fire Aura (also ranged)

Regulus: Mines IV, Mark of the Betrayer (also ranged)

UB can grasp and break to keep one off of him for ~1.5 seconds but that requires getting in melee range (same with Claws). If UB overextends and gets ganked, he can only survive via his high speed and energy. So that's the argument you can make.

 

That said, I think nerfing his movement speed and dumping it into Inner Beast is a proper way to do it (assuming you keep the attack speed bonus the same as it is now. he doesn't need +15% attack speed). He would still have his escape mechanism when ganks become more common later on, but he is actually kitable by fast characters early-on.

'Course I also think that Spit should have its duration increased by 1 second (so you can spit on someone once as they do an ability on you, like Fireball, but the second time it comes around you'll still be on cooldown and they can back up before it's off) or it's ranged decreased by 2-3 yards. You should be able to kite characters, and it's stupid that Spit makes UB utterly unkitable.

 

Also, melee monsters should be escapable from. There never should be a demigod that is so strong that he can always get kills wherever he goes. That's poor balance. The fact that Ooze Beast even works shows that UB is too strong. A character shouldn't be able to win fights simply by right-clicking.

Reply #74 Top

Like Teseer said,

make the SPIT half ranged would be perfect to balance UB

and Make him BEST melee character

Not best ranged+melee character

Reply #75 Top

Very well explained Hedgie. Yeah pure Ooze Beast being viable (even scary at times) is just silly.

Just one thing, and the reason why i keep suggesting a Frost Nova Cast time reduction: Ice TB can't really escape half decent chase/gank teams: not only he loses practically the same time casting FN I than keep his chasers stunned (0.9 to 1 sec), they just need to save a penitence/grasp/roll/pounce/silence/etc. to interrupt  Frost Nova, it's retardedly easy to do it due to its long cast time. Then TB lost the time during casting FN before being interrupted without even stunning his chasers.

Also, speed reduction from Frost Nova gets nullified by Penitence/Bite/Maim/MotB/Diseased Claws/etc speed debuffs.