E:WoM, the Starcraft 2 Beta, Frustration, and it's alleviation...

good post.

Well, I like that Stardock opened their beta in the early alpha, and are handling feedback in an intelligent and controlled manner.

I also like the fact that these first few betas are without the integration of graphics so that those focusing on the gameplay are not distracted by graphics, and those focused on the graphics are not (too) focused on gameplay ... but Gameplay comes first, so the first half is really 90% of it.

Meaningful and well-thought responses by the Dev team towards are responses is also a pleasant part of the process. It makes the whole forum system easy to work with.

I suppose the most important thing is that Stardock isn't simply sticking to something that works, hoping it will still be as good (and by-proxy start to deteriorate :cough: Blizzard), but are instead doing something different, making a new decision in a positive direction.

Now, I know Stardock is a relatively young company, and still becoming established in the long-term market place, or more appropriately the psychological "market imprint" among consumers, I would hope that similar design and production philosophies are continued for many years within the company.

I will admit that when it comes to Elemental I can, and will, be very biased because not that many games can keep my interest for long, and those that do (that are not 4x), I will blaze through in a couple of days and then place it on a shelf, having but a few fond memories. Thus far, only three games for the Computer have truly engaged me enough to spend (I daresay) hundreds of hours apiece upon them. Rome: Total War, Medieval2: Total War, and Fall From Heaven.

I started with Empire Earth, then Civ III, then the Rome:Total War became my favorite forever, then Civ IV, and then Medieval2 Total War, and then Fall From Heaven Mod for Civ IV.

When it was just Civ IV and Rome, I would go back n forth, debating but ultimately choosing Rome as my favorite. Once Medieval2 came out a similar phenomenon arose. Then, after playing the map several times (Europe eventually gets boring :p), Fall From Heaven2 was speeding up to full blast. It was then that I noticed it (during the latter stage of Fire) and it became my all-time favorite PC game. Most of the time it trumped Morrowind and Oblivion as well.

So yes, you could say that a certain 4X blend with tactical battles and a Historical/Fantasy blend is right up my alley ... so I will be delighted for Stardock's focus to remain on Elemental "stuff" for many years to come. However I also realize that for the company to move forward, Elemental will hopefully be the launching pad for many future games, and even if somehow the turn out of Elemental does not lead to the theorized success, for Stardock as a company to still have the daring to try better and new things .... and to continue progress in general for the Video Gaming world.

What I love ? Those forums. The heated debates where no names are thrown. The responses of Frogboy (even if he never replies to my questions Or once in a while), BoogieBac and all the staff. I love the dev journals, and particularly the one about coding the movement methods. Well I love to know a part of what is the creation of a game.

The game is already fun to play (yes, even with 1G) at least for me. But it's nowhere what it will be for release. I can't wait for the map making and the modding.

Last, but not least, the first beta and its intro. It MUST be on the final game as an easter egg.

Not trying to be rude, but I'll probably succeed at it anyway.

TBH, this reads like something straight off the WoW forums. After every change, Blizzard is "not listening", "breaking balance", "ruining the game", and so on. Been hearing that for five years... and before that for several more years with Starcraft. Somehow Blizzard's games always manage to survive the horrible things Blizzard is accused of doing to them, which really tells me that it's not so bad after all.

That's especially true in the case of beta balance. It's changing constantly. It'll change again before release. It'll change after release. People don't seem to remember that at release, Starcraft had balance issues too. It got sorted out. Then players got better and created new strategies, and it had to be changed again. If you really like Blizzard as much as you say you do, then at some point you need to trust them to sort it out in the end like they always do.

(And also not to mention it, but a quick search reveals lots of people saying that Protoss are overpowered. With a fanbase as large as Blizzard, "not listening" usually means "not listening to me". There's a difference.)

As for Elemental... the best thing is being so early in development, you can really see feedback drastically changing the game (which is harder to do later in development). But that's also a downside, it tends to crash a lot and a number of things aren't fully working yet.

@Tridus:  Yes, it similar to something you'd hear on the BNet forums...  I was surfing them before I got on here and that's what got me so freakin' heated about it.

I don't like what they're doing to the Protoss.  It seems like they're getting the shaft to me, and the math proves it, though I won't get into that...  (If you really wanna know, I'll show you to the proof...  Though, you might get called names for the asking.)

But let me reiterate a couple things for you.

Blizzard had NOTHING to do with the balance of Starcraft or Broodwar.  That was Blizzard North, an entirely different team from the guys who actually made the game.  World of Warcraft has no balance outside of PvE.  There's no point in Diablo 2 PvP because there are only a few builds that are even viable anymore.

And in truth, Starcraft itself never did get balanced...  Ever.  Balance only came after Broodwar, and again, this was not done by Blizzard, but Blizzard North, which no longer exists.  And, to my understanding, those guys no longer work for Blizzard.

I'd also like you to take a look at the part where I mentioned that, imo, they've been going downhill since Diablo 2.  (That means Diablo 2, Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft, and now the imminent release of Starcraft 2, all of which, barring SC2, I've come to realize are terrible games and that the execution of all of those games, including the Beta, are flawed at their most basic level.)  Diablo 2 had almost none of the feel of Diablo.  The only time I ever feel really pressed in D2, again in my opinion, is Act 5, constantly climbing up Mount Hyjal to try to save the world.  In Diablo, however, for each floor you go down, for each new area you enter, you feel more pressed, more clostrophobic(SP), more tense.  Especially if you're playing solo, or alongside a good friend who can get into it as much as you, it's the kind of dark game that can make you a little jumpy.  D2 just sends you on a massive road-trip really.  The descent into Hell isn't a descent.  It's more like a walk down a flight of stairs and a jaunt across the River of Flame.  Only in Diablo's Sanctum did I ever feel remotely worried for my characters future.  In Diablo...  Well, just remember trying to beat the Butcher the first time.  It's really not possible without a friend or three to back you up, at least not without repeated grinding first.  D2?  My friend punched Andariel to death.  I beat down Blood Raven with nothing but a shield, not even armor or a weapon to speak of.  My other friend literally ran around in circles using Trail of Flame or whatever and killed Andariel.  I've seen Mephisto killed before he could even finish his opening line...  On Hell difficulty...  Diablo though, was, from start to finish, brutal and intense...  Diablo 2...  Not at all, at least to my eye.  Diablo -STILL- makes me want to run to my parents room and have them 'save me from the cleaver monster.'  That's what I love about Diablo, and hate about Diablo 2...

I'm disappointed with how they're handling the SC2 Beta.  But my issue is that since Diablo 2, Blizzard just seems to have lost their touch, and seeing what they're doing with the Beta was just the last straw for me.

I will give Blizzard this, and this is the one ray of hope I have for them, though I'm loathe to hold on to it...

The SC2 Beta still feels like Starcraft at its core...  If that is maintained, then I think, maybe, just maybe, SC2 -might- end up being the great game I secretly hope it will be...  But I just don't trust Blizzard any more, and I'm not willing to get my hopes up for a company that seems to be moving further and further away from the things that made them a great company in the first place.

Moving on...

Even without being in the E:WoM Beta, I've actually gotten to see some of the communities suggestions actually make it into the game, which is straight FANTASTIC!  (Glad my friend has the Beta and can show me these things.  =P)  It's incredible to see how well Stardock interacts with their community...  Like when Dragon Age: Origins came out...  The first downloads were bugged, but Zoomba had it fixed as humanly close to immediately as possible....  I remember, I was there.  =P

Edit:  That's not to say that I'll call you names, but rather, the person who will physically show you, by playing the game and broadcasting it, might call you any number of rude things.

Edit 2: And the people complaining that the Protoss are OP are the casual gamers, the ones who can't tell a geyser from a mineral patch.  The people who are really worth watching and checking on to see if things are balanced are the people I watch, the Korean Pro-gamers and the semi-pro 'Foreigners.'  (Foreigner in SC-Speak means anyone not from South Korea.)  The guys who play at upwards of 200 actions per minute, or in smaller divisors, upwards of 4 actions every second.  (Jaedong is known to spike at close to 8 actions a second (420/minute) in Broodwar, and average Actions Per Minute of the semi-pro Broodwar Foreigners hovers right around 250.)

Well, I agree about Diablo 2. But Diablo 2 was made by Blizzard North, and it was the single buggiest thing Blizzard has ever put out at release. Many of those guys left for companies like Flagship and Cryptic, and we can see how well that has worked out.

But beyond that... Starcraft turned out really well, Warcraft 3 had a great mapmapking community (didn't care for the base game myself but the custom maps like DotA and Tower Defense were awesome), and while WoW isn't everyones cup of tea, it's redefined "success" in the genre and towers over everything. Clearly some people are quite fond of it (and I happen to be one of them).

The process here at Stardock is great, but it's helped by a smaller size. The regulars largely know each other, and it's a pretty approachable group for new people. The community around Blizzard games is a lot larger and significantly less friendly.

I love how they allow our input to actually change the game they open the beta's up so early in DEV that we actually got to help the DEV's make their design dicisions and ontop of that we actually got a chance to watch the game grow and i must say i love it even if i seem alittle bit ticked off at times.

And stardock in general is awesome when i heared that they were makeing a fantasy roleplaying game i instantly knew it'd be great.

Friendly community, dev team who cares, CEO who isn't Bobby "I want to take the fun out of gaming" Kotick. And since the company doesn't have shareholders, Frogboy can do whatever he pleases, which is usually* very good for us.

*I would say always, but I am not fond of statements without wiggle room left for my incomplete knowledge.

I canceled my SC2 pre-order on Amazon so I could pre-order Elemental    I'm really looking forward to this game, I know Stardock will do an awesome job with it.

I've been playing Starcraft since I was a kid.  It had a profound influence on my childhood. Yet when I got into the SC2 beta, I couldn't play more than 3 games.  Stupid WoW graphics, no real innovation, and after playing Sins and Demigod it really bothered me that I couldn't rotate the map!  (not to mention the lack of an Empire Tree)  It just felt so backwards and old and dumb.

Blizzard's been riding too high too long, they are losing their touch.  My money's with Stardock now, and I won't be looking back.

....Is that a...  Midget Vader?!

The best thing about the Elemental Beta so far has been the actual interaction within the community and between us and the Devs. Since joining the Beta I've made some pretty cool friends, both other players and friends who happen to work for Stardock.

Also, having done professional beta testing before and having worked in the industry, I can say that what I've seen Stardock do here has been a truly unique and beneficial thing to the gaming community as a whole. By showing that they have the foresight (and courage) to actually work With and Listen To their player base I believe they're breaking ground on a idea that will prove to be a huge success. Not many companies are willing to take into account the amount of feed back they've gotten from their players and Actually listen to them. Stardock is smart enough to see that if they make the game that the most of their players want they'll prosper both financially and earn a lot of respect in the eyes of the player base and the people who buy their games.

Wait, the OP owns every version of "The Lost Vikings"?

Just looked it up...  I can't believe there's something older than Warcraft: Orcs VS Humans that Blizzard made...

Thank you for relieving me of my ignorance on the subject.

Edit: Read further, you tricked me.  It wasn't made by Blizzard, it was made by a different company that later became Blizzard.  Silicon & Synapse is very obviously not Blizzard.  There's no telling if it was even all the same people that made Warcraft: OVH.  Good one.

Edit 2: After actually seeing the game in question, I can say, yes, I do own all of the 'The Lost Vikings' games.  But I haven't touched them, or even seen the cartridges, since I was like, 4...

Edit 3: This is in response to Ravenx directing me towards the Beta Section Sticky......

So, I was about to load a game so I could get it to lock up and then make a report...  But wouldn't ya know it, I just successfully loaded for the first time!  Thanks for telling me what info the Dev's would've needed, prompting me to try to load, and therefore, saving my game!  WOOT!

Same core people, the company was renamed when they started doing PC games.

That wasn't meant to be sarcastic, just FYI.  I know it came across like that, but if I'd meant it, I would've tagged it with /sarcasm-off at the end.  It really was a good one.  Both for the double-tricking me and for the relieving of my ignorance/unawareness.

Heh heh... don't make it seem so spiritual dude. I have high expectations too and a great deal of Stardock fanaticism. But even though I pretty much have nothing to do except play computer games and look for work, "part of me dying inside" isn't what describes me when I'm disappointed with a game's progress.

I don't want to seem super critical since you were probably exaggerating, I just rather not see you hang yourself because your favorite feature gets cut.

But if you do, be sure to record it or stream it live with a link here. Also, try to post a suicide note in advanced with the time when you'll commit the act live so I can make some popcorn and call my lawyer.

Thanks in advanced. (since I won't be able to thank you later)

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LoL J/K , seriously, don't do that.

Rikaze, I'm going to be blunt. Your post screams to me "I play P and I'm bad at SC2. I'm gonna blame Blizzard instead of myself and avoid responsibility". There's plenty of Ps in top 10 platnium position. They have no problem getting and staying there, even tho according to you Protoss is being nerfed into to ground.

Actually scratch that. I reread the paragraph and I'm not even sure what your point it. It's a terrible vague paragraph.

Personally I love SC2. It's just what I wanted (a competitive RTS that's fun). Blizzard seem to be doing a fine job balancing. 

As for Stardock and Blizzard... Blizzard has a much much bigger fanbase. They can't treat it the same as Stardock treats theirs. 

I am enjoying SC2.  The matchmaking makes me a little bitter (I'm in bronze but I get "favored" to win high level silver players).

I play as Terran. If anyone needs help, I'd say it's Zerg. 

No, I play Zerg, and very very poorly.  I understand why my post screams the way it does though, and there's nothing I can do to change that or convince you otherwise, short of showing you exactly how much worse I am at BroodWar Protoss than Zerg, since I don't have the SC2 Beta.

The point of the paragraph is basically that I'm becoming, and have been for a while now, very disillusioned towards Blizzards handling of things since Diablo 2, and just jaded with them in general.  It's also to preface how much I love how much Stardock very obviously cares.

By these tokens though, I'm somewhat pleased with the latest patch for the SC2 Beta, especially after hearing the 'State of the Game' podcast for this latest patch.  I don't think it addresses the issues as it should, but they are taking baby steps in the right direction it seems.  They nerfed Protoss yet again, but this time, instead of just further gimping them, it actually added a lot of flavor to their play.  Specifically, they nerfed Void Rays, reducing the amount of 'Charge-Ups' it gets from 3 to 2, reducing its armor by 1 point, bringing it from 1 to 0 if I'm not mistaken, as well as changing the damage values for both Single and Full Charge attacks.  (Before, they were doing 2 Base + 4(Armored) on the first charge, and now it's a flat 5, and the second charge was 8 + 16(Armored).  Now it's 10 + 15(Armored). )  The removal of the First-Charge Armored bonus and the Base Damage Increase on both charges actually makes Void Rays more than just Cheese units, since now they're actually viable against more than just Buildings and Heavy Units.  Apparently, just a few days into the patch, we're seeing Void Rays incorporated into Protoss Army Compositions a ton more, as well as seeing their effectiveness against units like Marines and Zerglings increase drastically, despite the seemingly very minor difference.  It makes sense that in order to balance the Void Rays new damage, they'd take away its armor.  This also gives Protoss some way to fight from the air while still being relatively Cost Effective, which is something they've always lacked, even in Brood War, where their only decent and cost effective Air Unit was Corsairs.  (Carriers aren't actually viable at the higher levels of play but in a few circumstances, and that holds true for SC2.)

They also made the Maurader's Concussive Shell (50% reduced movement for 3 seconds,) an Upgrade and not a standard ability.  I don't think this really changes the play for most Terrans, but there are two other things that do.  Banshee's got a 10 HP buff, which, despite the low number again, is actually huge.

They also nerfed Roach's to some extent, reducing their Burrow Move Speed from 2 to 1.4, which really doesn't affect anyone at the higher levels, as well as reducing their Armor from 2 to 1.  THAT, is HUUUUUGE.  It doesn't change the amount of attacks most of the 'Hard-Counter' units need to kill the Roach, but it makes the 'Soft-Counter' units a TON more viable against them.  I.E., Zealots, Marines.  At the same time, this is a step in the right direction towards making Terran Mech builds viable again, and once they do that, the balance will really start shaping up...

Also, they decreased the build-time of the Terran Thor from 75 to 60, and of the Siege Tank from 50 to 45.  While the Thor is a very specialized unit you rarely see more than 4 or 5 of in a Terran Army during a competitive match, the five second decrease on the Siege Tanks, while probably throwing off their Cost Effectiveness, takes another big step towards making Terran Mech viable, and encouraging players to move away from the (somewhat, but less so now,) OP Marauder/Marine/Medievac build.  In that same vein, they reduced the Hydralisk HP from 90 to 80, making it die in One Shot to Thors, further encouraging Terrans to diversify their play.

So, I guess I spoke too soon, it seems like Blizzard is finally starting to make changes that matter and improve the balance of the game....  Even if they are still essentially nerfing Protoss.

And the reason I don't complain about Zerg being nerfed is because, besides the Roach and the Broodlord, Zerg is already very well balanced and just needs some minor tweaks.  Those two units, particularly the Broodlord though, are a little OP.  The Broodlord is so much so in fact, that even Zerg players are starting to think it's lame that they can almost win by default if they make it to Broodlords.  Once they fix that, give the Marauder a nerf that actually hurts it a little, there's a very good chance they'll be moving into the tweaking phase for unit balance, and then after that, all that's left are the Economic/Macro Mechanic Balances...  Particularly for Zerg.  For 150 minerals, they essentially get a never-ending stream of Larvae, even if they only have one Hatchery/Lair/Hive, since there is literally no limit to the amount of Larvae they can bank using the Queen's Infuse Larvae ability, essentially giving them the ability to supply cap, and then if they lose the fight, immediately re-create their army...  From a conceptual stand-point, this actually fits the Zerg perfectly, but from a balance and competitive play standpoint, it's a little (Possibly more than just a little,) broken.

Zerg Versus Protoss still needs some work, but that's where Protoss has to struggle the least to actually win, at least at the Gold/Platinum levels, so it'll be an easy fix.  Terran Versus Protoss is still pretty broken in favor of the Terrans though, since Marauders still pretty much decimate Protoss armies...  Hence why they need to fix them a bit more.  But with the Concussive Shells nerf, they're definitely on the right track.  And now that Void Rays are actually pretty decent against Marines, they're viable against the slightly OP MMM build, again, encouraging Terrans to move more towards Mech.

That's kind of weird to hear FB, especially considering most of the upper level guys seem to think Zerg has way to big of an advantage in Zerg VS Terran.  Hydra/Roach builds decimate a TON of stuff...  But with the Hydra Nerf, it should even the playing field a lot, now that Thor's will actually be really freakin' ownage against Hydras, particularly once you factor in their Splash Damage.

Also...  Bronze!  Congrats!  I'd be in Copper for sure.  Close to the bottom of Copper...  At least, that's what I'm guessing.

All-in-all though, it seems like Blizzard is trying to make Terran something much more diverse than what it was in BroodWar.  You rarely saw Bio-Mech builds unless it was a Mirror Match, and occasionally in Terran VS Zerg, (Since Goliath's pwned Zerglings before they got to Anabolic Boost Upgrade [Faster Attack Speed, or as it's more commonly known, Cracklings,]) but now, it's like they're almost begging the Terrans to try Bio-Mech.  This is a very good thing, as the other two already have a lot more choice in their unit compositions than Terran did at the higher levels of play, and it'll help things a ton...

On that token though, I never really realized exactly how UN-viable Terran Mech was...  So I was maybe a little too judgemental in saying that Marauders were way too OP...  Even though that's true, players wouldn't feel like they HAD to use Marauders if they had other options, which they didn't.

Edit:  Err, not 'Removal of the first charge armor bonus,' rather, 'Reduction of the first charge armor bonus.'