Pact stratigy. (Who should you form pacts with?)

Well... Diplomacy brings a lot of cool things to multiplayer, but one of the most important, is pacts.

The problem is, you can only form any given pact with one other player... so you need to think about who on your team would benifit most from a given pact.  So.. if your in econ spot... who do you send out your costly diplo cruisers to to pact up with? for example, that beam pact isnt very helpfull to that tec player, and his missle pact isnt very usefull to you... but it is VERY usefull to that vasari player on your team.

One thing that should be noted: if you form pacts with a race the same as you, you take away alot... think about this... your tec, and you form a metal pact with your tec ally... VS both of you instead form pacts with your non-tec allies... do the math... 2 players get the metal pact bonus vs 4 players. Sometimes the best option is to form pacts with your own race, depending on the situation and how things are playing out, but given equal choices, you should choose the player of a different race to pact with.

TEC pacts

Metal pact: It should be preety obvious who you should pact with... the guy with alot of volcanic planets... or, the vasari player with all of his neutrals.  pact with the guy with the number one in metal production! 

Trade pact: just like the metal pact, this time pact with the guy with a zillion trade ports. Creating these economic pacts with the guys already best in econ means that you get the highest possible gain in resources/second from them.

Missle pact: Give this pact to a vasari player! they have so many units with missles its not even funny!  DONT give this pact to an advent player, they have no missles! If your advent and a tec player on your team is trying to form a missle pact with you... accept it (so they get the bonus), but remind them that as soon as get enough relationship with a vasari player they need to switch the pact to that vasari player.

Seige pact: not the most usefull pact... however, the advent generally suck at seige, so this may just help them out a bit (the vasari just suck the planets dry)  If you have an AI on your team, this means that thier seige frig spam might do abit of something... not really.

Armor pact: godly pact, great for anyone really, but benifits the Vasari a bit more than the advent, due to te advent's very low hull strenght. If there is a vasari player doing a lot of figthing give it to him, but if your biggest fighters are advent, you may want to give it to them instead.

Supply pact: THis is best given to someone with a low fleet supply limit.... (so they dont have to totally lose thier economy to fleet up) or a vasari with returning armada.  

In general,TEC pacts benifit the VASARI more than the advent, so if you only have the diplo cruisers to form friends with one person, you prolly want to make it a Vasari player.

Advent pacts:

Research pact: get this to someone early, 10% off is a nice little bonus, for both of you.  This could really help a tec or vasari friend get some of those nice tier 8 techs.  Give this pact to whoever is kinda in an econ spot so they can research the end game stuff (and more pacts!) 

Culture pact: preety pathetic as far as pacts go. Give to a player who is on the defencive to allow them to have a better chance of defending with thier culture bonus, and that + antimatter bonus of the tec is preety awsome.

Antimatter pact: The vasari player on your team could prolly use this a bit better than the tec player, thanks to the tec player's kick arse culture bonus.  20% more antimatter means 20% more subversion, 20% more reactive nanites, 20% more repair field, 20% more everything. However, it also is very nice for the tec player as well... if you see a tec player wh 3 donovs, know that those capial ships are almost invinsible untill they run out of antimatter.  Makes fluxfield+gauss railgun that much better, and makes those hoshikos 20% more usefull.  This pact is also VERY usefull to carrier cruisers.  Give this pact to whoever is fighting alot, and/or whoever has alot of support units.

Beam pact: Not very usefull. If there is a advent who does not have the resouces to make his own diplo cruisers, give this pact to him. gives a small boost to a few vasari cap ships, and not much at all to the tec.

Anima pact: this pact is the most amazing pact out there, if your into strike craft.  This benifits the vasari much more than the tec. A Vasari bomber squad gains 66% more bombers! and 40% more fighers... compared to 40% more bomber for tec, and 28% more fighers.  

Shield pact: the main gem here is that +2% mitigation, which is amazing. This actually rather benifts both other races preety eqeally, prolly best given to whoever has the most capital ship dependant fleet, cause that 2% really helps those capital ships not die... and tec tends to rely on thier capital ships a bit more than the vasari.

In general, advent pacts could go either way, pick the best, closest non-advent team mate you got, and beef em up.

Vasari pacts:

Resource pact: Give to the player harvesting the most resources! 

Phase drive pact:  That -50% am usage when warping is AMAZING. give this to whoever seems to be on the move the most... which is generally the person on your team who is attacking.  Stacking this with the advent AM conservation tech, makes advent very scarry.

Nano tech pact:  The tec have alot of hull, so this clearly benifits them the most.

tactical pact:  This pact may seem rather useless.. untill you consider that it allows the tec to place 2 novaliths per planet, instead of one.  The advent can already place 2 love cannons, so not very helpful to them.  In general though, give to the player with the most boarder worlds.

Structure pact: The tec have alot of hull, so this clearly benifits them the most.  That sounds familiar... huh.

Armerment pact: This benifits both other races preety equally.  Give this to whoever has the largest fleet.

In general, the Vasari pacts benifit the TEC, so, once again, if you have to choose where to send your diplo cruisers, make friends with a tec person.

 

I hope this helps you get some ideas on tatical pact forming.  These things can seriously tip the scales, and the bonuses of having diplo cruisers at allied planets to form these pacts makes it even better. However, dont go for these pacts if you are not in a econ spot, or you will prolly get rushed and destroyed before these pacts take effect... and all the missle pacts in the world dont do anything if you dont have any ships.

Pacts and diplo cruisers are great, and by themselves make diplomacy a great and worthwhile addition to the multiplayer game. I hope to see you all in the diplomacy ICO lobby soon!

 (any thoughts? did i miss anything?)

27,833 views 22 replies
Reply #1 Top

Good guide.  However I would like to ask a question.  Does the missile pact actually benefit Vasari?  Sure, they use missiles, but they are PM's which is a different damage type.  I don't have Diplo, but I'm just wondering if this is actually correct.

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Reply #2 Top

It brings shield bypassing up another 15% percent.

 

Also, if you have a TEC in the Pocket, have them get some Envoys out and get them some Vas Envoys. Between the Envoy abilities and the pacts, they can get an extremely good economy.

 

:fox:

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Reply #3 Top

It brings shield bypassing up another 15% percent.

WHAT!?! o_O  That means 45% shield bypass rate! :dur:  

So, yeah..  I could see how that would help...

Reply #4 Top

The Vasari pacts are great for anyone who is an agressive player, to be honest. Their diplomacy ships are really nice too for anyone who's being hit (the health regen and invul abilities)... I only wish that I could use all that badass technology on myself instead of having to make a Vasari friend :-P.

But... the dip cruisers are another thread, so I'll shush ;)

Good guide, Pbhead! And holy crap Kitkun, I didn't realize it upped the bypass rate!

-Itharus

PS: I kinda think the Advent pacts help the Advent the most... I kinda like that... damned religious fanatics can stay in their own little spot while the rest of us "come from the three corners of the world and shock them". Death to those femi-nazi al-qaida bastards!

Reply #5 Top

Looks like I'm going to have to earn that karma now...

Here's my take...

 

Metal pact: the guy with the most metal income

Trade pact: the guy with the most trade ports (preferably TEC)

Missle pact: Give this pact to a vasari player! +15% bypass is huge!!!

Seige pact: not the most usefull pact... however, the advent generally suck at seige, so this may just help them out a bit (the vasari just suck the planets dry)  If you have an AI on your team, this means that thier seige frig spam might do abit of something... not really.  (Same thing I would have said)

Armor pact: give to TEC or Vasari.  If you see Kodiak spam, you know who to give it to.

Supply pact: give this to a Vasari.  Its going to give them a numerical advantage late game (which is when they are unstoppable anyways)

In general, make sure that if TEC, you have a Vasari friend.

Advent pacts:

Research pact: give this to someone asap.  It doesn't really matter who, just give it to someone.

Culture pact: if you see a culture war, give it out.  Otherwise, don't make this a priority. 

Antimatter pact: give this to anyone.  TEC might actually be able to use demo bots or GRG.  Vasari could use it as it means more repair cloud and you just made the Kortul even harder to kill via SC.

Beam pact: give this to another advent.  If none is available, give to a TEC using Argonevs or a Vasari with a high number of capitals.

Anima pact: give to Vasari.  I don't care what you think, give this to the Vasari dang it.

Shield pact: the Advent are preferred.  This combined with the researchable passive makes ships very hard to kill indeed.

Advent are kinda random.  Give 'em to whoever needs them the most.

Vasari pacts:

Resource pact: give to your feeder

Phase drive pact:  don't give this to a Vasari.  They have PG's, so they don't really need it.  Give it to whoever is winning the most.

Nano tech pact:  give to whoever is going to benefit the most (generally TEC spamming Kodiaks)

tactical pact:  give to a Vasari or TEC as it allows superweapon doubling

Structure pact: TEC or Vasari

Armerment pact: give to Advent early-mid game or Vasari late game.

In general, the Vasari pacts benifit the TEC

 

I would like to know though...  Let's say that you are Advent and so is your ally.  Can you make a shield pact with him and then he makes one with you so you get +4% mitigation, or is this not possible?  I bought Diplomacy earlier today, but haven't gotten a chance to play it yet...

Reply #6 Top

You can only have one of each type of pact. If you give a shield pact to someone, you both count as having your shield pact in place - neither one of you can give or receive another shield pact until you cancel your original pact (at which point neither of you have a shield pact). So no, you cannot stack pacts together.

-Itharus

 

Edits are in bold.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 5
Looks like I'm going to have to earn that karma now...

 

I would like to know though...  Let's say that you are Advent and so is your ally.  Can you make a shield pact with him and then he makes one with you so you get +4% mitigation, or is this not possible?  I bought Diplomacy earlier today, but haven't gotten a chance to play it yet...

 

Nope, no such stacking. heres the thing... making pacts with the same race means that you both use up your pacts... which is why in my guide I say to avoid making pacts with the same race.

Imagine the simplist of cases, a 2v2.  if your team contains 2 advent,you get 15% shield, -10% research cost, and forth..if you have one advent and one vasari, you get 15% shields, -10% research, +25% hull, +20% refire... and so forth.

Obviously, the advent-vasari team would have alot more bonuses than the advent-advent team. 

Reply #8 Top

Yeah...  I bought Diplomacy shortly after posting that and finally got around to playing a game today.  So, I now know that.

Reply #9 Top

I jumped in too deep on my 1st Diplomacy game...and got my Arse handed to me by 9 Vicious opponents.  (Well, it was actually one...but i accidentally let him corner me, and was stuck defending against it with only the income of my homeworld and a roid to fuel my fight, while my scouts revealed he had around 5 planets already.

Anyway, this thread really helps me get things into perspective on the whole pact thing.  Thanks Pbhead!

Just to be clear, I know you said it's not recommended, but is it possible to make a pact with the same race as you?

Also, how come Advent wasn't given a Crystal Mining pact?  It'd kinda fit.  TEC got metal, Vasari got both, and i se Advent as kinda Crystal-Reliant...It'd be a bit more useful than Culture, IMO.  IDK.  Just a question.

-Exile Ascendant

Reply #10 Top

I would like to take this moment to say that the TEC Supply Pact is just retardedly over powered. I clicked accept and randomly got 900 extra supply... while only having around 800 supply or some such and it's associated low cost in the first place. So basically I got to double my fleet supply and not pay for it.

Do you have any idea how totally screwed up that is to get when you have like 30 phase gates and Returning Armada ready to rock? Freaking mind-blowing. The amount of supply granted needs to be seriously nerfed... or maybe just scrapped. I think it would be better off if it just shaved a few percent off of your upkeep cost.

I seriously hope this huge supply bonus is just a bug or something.

Reply #11 Top

No, its intentional.  And yes, giving that sort of a boost to a Vasari is the fastest way to wipe the enemy fleet off the face of the galaxy.  That is about 40% more units at that 75% upkeep for free!  That means that you can afford to buy all the Vasari's toys in abundance.  Ever want 20 ruiners but could only afford 15?  Okay.  Ever want 60 Enforcers but could only get 45?  Sure.  Ever want 60 Subs, but could only get 30?  In general, this pact makes whatever gets it 40% more powerful late game.

Combine that with the missile pact, and well, you have a very powerful Vasari headed your way.

 

Now, let's see what a 45% chance of bypass would actually do.

For convenience sake, let's say that mitigation is 75%, armor is 5.

So, by default, weapons have to go through mitigation which in this case knocks them down to 25% of their original damage.  Phase missiles have a 30% chance of bypassing it, so they just hit armor.  That results in a boost of 20%.  However, while most ships will have about 4 hull for every 2 shields, you get to ignore shields.  This means that you are only having to deal 67% as much damage as your opponent (this is even better when facing advent).  That means that you will get about another 50% boost when it happens, so what the real equation is is: Boost= .30*1.25*1.5

That is a 56% increase in damage.  Throw in the conventional damage upgrade and you get 67%.

If you get that additional boost though from the missile pact, that translates into 84%; if you get the conventional upgrades, it is a 101% damage buff.  In other words, it doubles your damage.

Reply #12 Top

The Supply Pact is still OP, bro. At least if you're TEC or Vasari facing it... I don't have enough experience with the Advent to comment - I quit playing them when I realized you could rickroll an opponent with just two Guardians (repulse) in your fleet. Maybe the Advent can withstand it better... maybe not.

I understand the usefulness of this (Supply Pact) when you're the underdog fighting outnumbered, but when you're the one in charge - it's just... too much.

As for the Missile Pact? It doesn't bother me - although with fully upgraded phase missiles, subverter debuff, Missile Pact, and nano-disassembler - enemy Capital Ships are just FUBAR'd. To be honest though, they always were by that point - even w/o the pact. Plus the Vasari HC feel somehow... weaker... than they should. I've found I'm often better served pumping out more Assailants to compensate... I mostly just keep a few HC around for the slowing debuff, like 10 or so. So to me the Missile Pact almost feels like a leveling out of the HC disadvantage.

Are you arguing for or against the Missile Pact effects on the Vasari, Volt? Also, while I do not doubt Kitkun, as she seems generally in-the-know, I don't see anything in game that suggests that mitigation is actually increased by 15%. Kitkun, did you get this information from the game files, or from somewhere in game?

-Itharus

 

Reply #13 Top

I don't see anything in game that suggests that mitigation is actually increased by 15%. Kitkun, did you get this information from the game files, or from somewhere in game?
Assuming you mean the shield bypassing:

researchFloatModifiers 2
researchModifier
    modifierType "WeaponDamageAdjustment"
    baseValue 0.000000
    perLevelValue 0.150000
    linkedWeaponClass "MISSILE"
researchModifier
    modifierType "WeaponIgnoresShieldsAdjustment"
    baseValue 0.000000
    perLevelValue 0.150000
    linkedWeaponClass "PHASEMISSILE"

 

:fox:

Reply #14 Top

I was neutral, I don't think its too bad.  The Vasari are awesome late game anyways, and this does give a certain bonus to using the TEC.  Yeah, its a bit OP, but I don't think its horrible.  Maybe I'm wrong, as I am a bit (very) partial to the Vasari.

Reply #15 Top

Indeed I did, sorry for the wrong word. If memory serves, I only had one mug of coffee that day (this excuses almost everything).

Thank you for the info, Kitkun!

I saw in the patch notes for Diplomacy 1.01 that there was a bug concerning the Supply Pact... I wonder what the bug was? Maybe too much supply was being provided..? I'm also very partial to the Vasari, almost to the point of exclusivity. Maybe 10% of my games are as non-Vasari, and 90% of that 10% is as the TEC. In my house - the Advent get NO love.

-Itharus

Reply #16 Top

Double post because the forums went boom.

Reply #17 Top

I'm also very partial to the Vasari, almost to the point of exclusivity. Maybe 10% of my games are as non-Vasari, and 90% of that 10% is as the TEC. In my house - the Advent get NO love.

Yeah, same here...  Only swap the TEC and Advent for me.  I used to play Advent and Vasari evenly, but then the devs killed synergies, and I started playing Vasari all the time.  Only time anything else ever happens is when I'm testing something.

But at my house as well, there will be no major playing of TEC/Advent unless I can convince my girlfriend to try it.  She likes video games (and RTS's at that), so it shouldn't be too hard...  Yay for being a nerd and having a girlfriend who is also a nerd.  I mean, its bad when you can write a joke in computer code that only the two of you can understand...

 

Anyways....  I have no idea what bug that is as I didn't know it existed.  Maybe it doesn't give the buff sometimes...  What I want to know is what happens when you make this pact with someone and then revoke it.  That way, you could actually have multiple players beyond 2000.  When they need to rebuild, just make it with them.  When done building, switch it to the next person.

Reply #18 Top

Huh... that's a damned good question... I don't imagine the ships would suddenly go boom... I smell MP exploitation incoming.

Edit: Imagine several Vasari players going nuts on the RA while doing that... lol.

Reply #19 Top

Oh yeah.  The thing is, you can always have things above your max fleet supply, you just can't build.  For instance, derelict ship capturing in the DS mod and domination.  You can go over the max with abilities, just not with factories.

 

Its definitely going to give one huge bargaining chip to the TEC.

Reply #20 Top

How do we get our Diplomacy points to rise?  (The ones that max out at 150)  I couldn't seem to get mine to surpass the AI I was fighting, and ended up losing the game due to diplomatic victory, even though I pretty much had it militarily.

Also, Are pacts viable in a 1v1 game?  I'd like to know before I start one...

-Exile Ascendant

Reply #21 Top

Uh... no? Diplomacy doesn't really have a place in 1v1 unless you set it to "2 allied victors" and feel like winning the game within 10 minutes.

Make more peace and more pacts with AI's to increase your diplomacy score... also spread around envoy cruisers.

Reply #22 Top

Itharus,  The supply pact bug was in many cases (% unknown) once a Supply Pact was inacted, no extra supply was given.  The fix corrected so that once a Supply Pact is activated, the extra logistics are added to the current level.

Also, if you lose the pact while you have the ships nothing happens.  Remember like in Starcraft/Warcraft when someone took out your farms?  You can't build the replacements for the extra slots.  Same thing with the Vasari tactical pact.  Hope this helps