Oh! There it is. Thanks for posting the picture.

Carrier cruisers are also extremely expensive, Fighters die to flak/Halcyon/other fighters, and their antimatter cost makes them difficult to replace. The only real LRF counter seems to be flak, and that's only viable as TEC or Advent.

EDIT: And Advent scouts are still viable, because they have the same amount of Hull/Shields with only a comparatively light damage nerf. TEC scouts are still frail and weaker, and Vasari's are even worse.

Hi all!,

Argh!  I've been drowning in work and have had no time for Sins.

Can someone please please tell me how the AI is performing with the new fixes in place?

I just cut and pasted 4 (of my, top choice) AI fixes:

Improved the AI's building in general.

Fixed bug where AI would incorrectly send an incomplete attack force.

Improved the AI's ship building selections.

Reduced the AI's building of siege frigates.

Thanks in advance,

DH  <---Living vicariously through reports of other peoples games of Sins!

 

/edit-  sunava...I got so (*^&^$ excited I thought the patch was released!  ok, withholding excitement until release

well considering that it has not been released yet we don't know

That's what I thought, too.

I support the scout nerf - the idea of viable scout/lf spam is ridiculous.  If seeker/disciple is still viable after the patch, it just means seekers need an even further dps nerf.  People say "well the problem is their survivability," but if they can't kill anything, their survivability is a non-issue.

There does need to be an adjustment to control lrm spam, however, which will be returning with a fury.  Candidates are to make flak more viable against lrm spams (particularly sentinals), make fighters more viable as Eye suggests, or make HC more viable.

As people point out, scouts can still be used to fight LRF, just not at the same cost efficiency as before.  Scouts are currently very cost efficient for the amount of firepower / health they have -- seekers especially.  The 15-20% firepower nerf just means you have to make 20% more scouts.  I don't feel like crunching the numbers but I suspect unsupported LRF spam will still be easily overwhelmed by scout spam.

LRF should be cost effectively countered by Caps and slaughtered by HCs

all whining about scout spam take the weopons off all the scouts and give the fightercraft mind destruction capabilities  that would do it problem solved and use the heavy cruiser to take lrms out its that easy i have no problem with it and anyway ur not skilled if u spam shit anyways mix fleets ftw

so... any info when we will be getting this?

Theres one problem when people ask for change, they want MORE!

Guys, I am happy with this patch, this patch will at least make the game the most balanced its gonna be, so dont moan about the changes, just be glad they fixed most of the issues. Some people wanted a scout nerfed some dont, we got it now, dont talk about OMG SCOUTS GOT NERFED, just be happy, we might acutally have a balanced game now.

 

and pbhead, the patch should be out when deplomacy is out, i think the 9th feb.

I think we ought to see how the patch runs before we pass judgement. Personally I think many will be relieved by the fact that illuminators won't be quite as powerful as they were. That in itself is a huge issue. Im just happy they found the time to address a few balance issues while they're trying to get diplomacy ready to go. And keep in mind this will be the fifth patch they've released since entrenchment. Im confident they'll do more when they have more time to devote to it.

 

BlackHawk, do you really believe that this patch will actually make the game and I quote you "the most balance its gonna be"?

I'm afraid you are most likely up for a big disapointment, because this nerfing of scout ships will only reinforce players into making even more LRF.

LRF are way down the tech tree, cheap and easily spammable. Their counter (Fighters/Carriers and HC) are very expansive (resources and supplies) and higher up the tech tree, they cant compete against the spammability of LRF. So people will be left with

A: trying to stop LRF spammers by spamming their own LRF

or B: trying to use the nerfed scouts to to stop LRF spammers.

So explain to me how this nerfing of scout ships will make the game more balanced?

The problem isn't LF/Scout rush. It's Disciple/Seeker spam, which is a lot more difficult to counter. At least with TEC, Cobolts are fairly pricey and Arcovas weak enough to make pure LF or LF/Flak a hard counter, and Vasari Skirms/Jikaras suck.

Gardas are completely fine, Defense Vessels could use a slight DPS nerf, and Charged Missiles should affect frigates. That would balance flak, and make Sentinels considerably better.

Also, why are people insisting that Fighters and HC are the counter to LRF? Maybe by numbers alone, but Carriers are extremely expensive and HCs are tier 5. They just aren't viable as LRF counters. The only real counters are Scouts (until this patch- except for Seekers), and flak, and even then aren't exactly fantastic units against anything else.

The only really hard LRF to counter was the Illuminator because it does so much damage, is protected from fighters by Halcyons, and is protected from HC's by Repulse.  But Illuminators are getting their damage bug fixed, so they should be more in line now.  They will probably still be formidable when massed, but not quite as ridiculous as they are now. 

From my experiences, scouts eat up LRM & Assailants.  Being dirt cheap, people are still going to be able to use scouts early game against an LRM rush...they just have to make 20% more scouts.  The old 3 scouts for 1 LRF rule will become something like 7 for 2.  No biggie.  Vasari will have some trouble dealing with hordes of cheap enemies, as always, but they have their starbases and the Skirmisher and Skirantra buff should give them some new options.  Besides, Diplomacy will change game dynamics in other ways so it is pretty early to call doom and gloom. 

Bottom line, scouts will still suppress LRF early game, but there is just a bit more incentive to move up the tech tree -- which makes total sense.

 

...No matter the problems with scouts being (supposedly) too powerful I have yet to see how the expensive, paper-mache, scout that was the Jikara Navigator needed a nerf.  Okay, so maybe the firepower reduction will fix the debatably OP Arcova and the definately OP Seeker, but how was the Navigator in any way OP to begin with?  Its as if no consideration has gone into the origional stats of these vessels.  The Jikara was hardly slaughtering LRF to begin with - something like a 5 to 1 ratio, or some such insane number, which would be resonable were it not for the fact that the Jikara also costs metal - and now we might as well have all the lizard-people line up on the bridge and throw rocks; it would certainly do more damage than the piddly little pulse guns, that's for sure.

M'kay, tell me how bombers and lf are an effective way to deal with lrm spam, especially when your acceptable counter unit (your weak and costly counter unit, might I add) just got nerfed.

I guess, at least, the Skirmisher is useful now.  Although I still think this patch will mean lrm=king, Illuminators included (they weren't exactly UP before the beam bug),  as they will still be the most cost effective vessels on the battlefield.

Again, well done on squashing the beam bug, but I'm still not seeing the sensibility of the scouts (especially the Jikara).

You are trying to draw a relationship where one doesn't exist to support your whine.  I pointed out Vasari got buffs in other areas.  The Vasari balance vs LRF hasn't changed.  Navigators are bad because of the cost, not because they are weaker -- they use the same ratio when fighting LRF.

For the record, I don't think the Jikara needed the nerf either, but they obviously nerfed it to keep it balanced with the other scouts.  If anything, the only race to benefit from the scout nerf is the Vasari, because Vasari players generally don't rely on their scouts to do anything secure neutrals.  While the gains are modest, the Vasari stand to benefit from the new patch in relation to the other races.

Um...a counter unit has had its damage nerfed - I call that change in balance.If they have an even harder time of killing things, it gives the lrf that they otherwise would have killed more time to do more damage and thus kill more scouts than they otherwise would have, thus you need to increase the number of scouts you produce to compensate for the ones detroyed due to the effect of a poorer damage output on their part.  In other words, the lrms can now do more damage over time due to the [Jikara] attack nerf than they otherwise would, and hence the damage nerf to the Navigator has resutled in a need to increase ratios, as one Jikara cannot do as much damage to one lrm before it inevitably hacks it.  Or at least that's how I'm seeing things.

 

Ah, who am I kidding, I'm arguing about something we don't even know will affect gameplay yet, all I'm going on is a very bad gut feeling (and intelligent reasoning).  It'll probably be changed back in 1.06.  If I have to issue a concluding statement though, it's that I think we've been giving the beam bug too much credit for the game's current lrm imbalances.

 

Skirmisher damage is being increased from 10.5 to 12, but they are still expensive and still cost a whopping 7 fleet supply.  Is anyone planning to build these now?  I don't see why I would want to.

All the scouts are affected like this so balance hasn't changed vs the other races.  I'm perplexed you can't see this.

 

They are actually becoming a decent ship for their assigned role.  With reintegration maxed out they aren't so bad.  I will point out the obvious so someone doesn't come along and whine about it, "No, you won't make them to beat LRF...duh."  All Vasari ships are overpriced.

 

R u trying to tell me they fixed  30% lums dmg just to buff all lrf 20%?

 

they didnt buff lrfs... they just swung the balance from scouts >LRFs to fighters > lrfs.

which, imho, is the way it should be anyway.

You do realize that with equel fleet supply, even vasari carriers PWN lrms... even illuminators, with the current balance?  I did a 6 vasari carrier vs 14 illum... both fleets starting on opposite ends of grav well... without kiting.  i lost 1 carrier.

flacks, however, are a monkey wrench in this plan, obviously... but thats the way it should be.

Thanks

They're still below par.  Supply for supply, their DPS is 10% below the cobalt and 20% below the disciple.  However, that's way better than they used to be, which was 20% and 30% below respectively.  It's very clear that these values are designed to accommodate for reintegration, but this effectively leaves the skirmisher as a 2-lab unit with prerequisites, more on par with the illuminator or even the hoshiko for its tech level. 

If you have a good situation for skirmishers, they're probably worth getting now.  Fighting for distant neutrals, they're basically impervious to damage unless the enemy comes with decisive numbers, and they should be decent for chasing down carriers, flaks, and other support cruisers now.  The problem remains that they're still pretty terrible for their overall DPS.

 

The problem I have with nerfing scouts is that the only reason why TEC and Vasari scouts were successful before was their 200% damage modifier against light armor.  On a supply-basis, scouts actually had the worst damage output of any unit in the game before this patch.  The TEC and Advent scouts had damage output (per-supply) roughly equal to the skirmisher, which we agreed was patently useless becuase of low damage, and the Vasari navigator had the distinction of being the lowest DPS combat unit in the game per supply. The Advent scout was overpowered not for damage, but because it was tough as nails and was actually one of the best damage sinks money could buy. 

Personally, I think Advent now has the only functional combat scout.  The Vasari scout has been nerfed to oblivion, and is now useless outside of grabbing neutrals and scouting.  The TEC scout might be useable, but it's pretty wimpy now and I don't think it has the punch to keep its current role.  The Advent scout might be worthwhile, however, because it has some insane shield points.  As a tank, it actually gives you some of the best durability money can buy, and this wasn't changed.  Although its damage is a little wimpy, mixing them in to up your fleet's durability should remain a viable approach.

Looks good.  AI upgrades and bugfixes are great.  I had a bad feeling they'd nerf scouts without nerfing LRFs, but I've long since given up on online play so I don't care; LRF spam isn't a problem with friends against the AI.

 

Looking forward to playing with pirates on again next week.

there needs to be an effective high level counter (ie HCs) to LRFs, and the AI needs to be aware of it too

also, there are several bugs with diplomacy (race relation modifiers etc) not mentioned here... fixed in a post-release patch? please?

otherwise, great patch. looking forward to being able to use lums vs AI without feeling like i'm cheating...