Caps vs. frigs (old school vs. new school)

What's the new gameplay mechanic?

from Sins Forums

Okay, to state the obvious, caps got buffed in the last patch.  Before I say anything else, I want to say that I think that was a GOOD thing.

At any rate, when I first read the patch notes some months back, I was very pleasantly surprised, but didn't think it would affect gameplay mechanic much, if at all.  I thought it would be the same old gameplay, with some nice little much needed buffs to caps.  Then slowly but surely, I started seeing online play evolve to the new capships.  Carrier cap opens, dual carrier cap opens, triple carrier cap opens, carrier cap rushes, etc. (also the use of the akkan instead of the "automatic" marza - GOOD).  And then, slowly but surely, I've seen people build even MORE caps as a "standard build philosophy."

However, until yesterday and last night, I was still in "old school mentality" regarding capships, i.e. NEVER BUILD TOO MANY.  I was on the extreme end of this mentality with the old version of the game, only ever building one cap, and if it ever died, not rebuilding it (and sometimes even opting to not build the free cap - yes I thought capships were that bad in the older version of the game).  I thought that all this new building of duplicate caps, triplicate caps, etc. at game open was a "gimmick" of sorts that was simply "catching people off guard" because of the newness of it all, but at the end of the day, people would figure out how to counter and smash it, and gameplay would then revert back to the standard, tired old "build one capship, MAYBE two in a standard online game, and play the game with tons of frigates."

This view of mine as multiple capships being a "gimmick" that would eventually be smacked down is one reason why I purposefully didn't evolve my gameplay and kept it largely "old school" (except for some attempts to counter multple halcyons/sovas with multiple skirantras of my own).  Also,  I've always thought the devs didn't like capships and didn't want powerful capships, and once they realized they made a huge "mistake" (in their eyes) by buffing them, they'd re-nerf them, and I didn't want to have to switch gameplay philosophy to new style, and then have to switch back again.  Comprehende'?

Enter yesterday and last night.  I haven't had a chance to play much at all the past week or two because of all the holidays.  So I haven't seen any action for over a week.  What I was surprised to see was usage of EVEN MORE CAPSHIPS in skilled games (folks with clan tags and "recognized" names).  How many capships?  One Advent player maxed out ALL his capship slots in a game (I think it was a 4v4).  I saw a TEC player build quadruple sovas one after the other, then an akkan and a couple of dunovs (other than that he just had scouts for the first hour or so of gameplay).

What's more, when I tabulated the results at the end of the day, the people who went cap heavy were the winners.  The people who went cap light were the losers.  As of last night, a "switch" went off in my head, and I changed my thinking from "this is a gimmick that will be slammed down soon enough" to "uhhh... I think this new gameplay mechanic might actually be for real?"

The old school of play was that CAPSHIPS SUPPORTED THE FLEET ("fleet" meaning "frigs and cruisers").  The school of play I witnessed yesterday and last night was FRIGS AND CRUISERS SUPPORT THE CAPSHIPS.

If this really is "for real," I'm all for it.  I always thought the old gameplay mechanic was backwards, i.e. the interesting capships sucked and took a back seat, and the boring frigs were churned out by the hundreds.  The new gameplay mechanic seems much more interesting (even though I haven't tried it).  But my question is, "is this really for real?"

Questions:

1. Has the new gameplay mechanic become "the fleet supports the capships?"  Or is there still a fight going on between "old school" and "new school?"  Who's winning the fight?  Based on what I saw yesterday and last night, "new school" has taken over, but did I just experience weird games or what?  How viable is this?

2. If the new gameplay mechanic is indeed "caps rule," is it here to stay?  What are the odds the devs will change it back again if they find out what's going on?

I like the new role of capships, but I've been extremely hesitant to switch my gameplay mechanic because I've either thought "uhh... this is a joke or gimmick, right?" or I feared the devs would just change the mechanic back again.  What are your thoughts?  Who's switching?  Who's staying the same?  Who thinks this is here to stay?  Who thinks it is a gimmick that will eventually be proved non-viable?  Who thinks the devs will revert the gameplay mechanic back the other way (caps support the fleet)?  Your thoughts?

strategy
22,700 views 29 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Being a relatively new player still finding my feet in AI games, I've always thought caps to be an essential part of the fleet and I usually have around 4. But maybe it's the recent balancing that's made it seem like a no brainer for me.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting starfox444, reply 1
Being a relatively new player still finding my feet in AI games, I've always thought caps to be an essential part of the fleet and I usually have around 4. But maybe it's the recent balancing that's made it seem like a no brainer for me.

This used to be a classic online multiplayer mistake (building lots of capships).  If you saw someone pumping out capships, you instantly knew they were a total newbie.  The last patch seems to have changed things.  Now, the intuitive newbie behavior (build lots of those big, nice, shiny, fun capships) might actually be the correct behavior.

I'm quite interested to hear what some of the more knowledgeable folks will have to say about this post.

Fences - Organize your desktop icons today!
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Well, seeing as how there were multiple buffs to my favorite ship (Kortul :')  ) I have discovered that I am relying less on my Egg and more on my Kortul.  While my strategy works against unfairs, I don't know if it works against humans, but at any rate, my style hasn't changed much.  Build one fleet with an egg to expand as quickly as possible with the sole purpose of finding the enemy and boxing them in, or at least create a line in the sand.  Then I would create a second fleet with a Kortul and go mop up the remaining ones within my territory.  After a while, I get to the point where I need more cash so I start spamming TP's.  The result is a massive influx of cash that I use to build starbases on the border planets, a larger fleet for my Egg and as of late a Skirantra (was not related to the patch as I started doing this right before the patch) to aid the Egg which by this time is likely around level 5-7.  After cleaning up the last few worlds, I use my spare cash to build a super fleet to escort my Kortul.

Really the only change to my strategy now is that it is more powerful.  My Kortul is taking down everything around it.  Sure, my Egg got buffed, but its still good.  I suppose the only thing I've noticed is that I need to build my Vulkoras (to escort my Kortul) faster.  I'm sure this is because of the patch, but at any rate, the patch amplified what already worked against hards and made it kill unfairs...

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Largely depends on how well you can use caps and which ones you pick.Alot of combinations and relations with caps and what you can do to your enemy.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

So kharma, were you that newb easy random in one of my games last night that couldnt kill a small fleet with sova in them?

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

One Advent player maxed out ALL his capship slots in a game (I think it was a 4v4). 

Was it Siddy? I played a game against him some time ago, and he went with a 7 Halcyon and Rapture fleet. Maxing out cap slots sounds like something he'd do. ;)

But the dual-cap start is increasingly becoming more common, and it's really a result of both the cap buffs and counters for LRFs. Before this path, building a second cap woul become extremely risky, since massed LRFs will kill the. With the prevalance of scouts, this is far less of a problem now.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

So kharma, were you that newb easy random in one of my games last night that couldnt kill a small fleet with sova in them?

No, I wasn't in your game, because you are one of the many people on my ignore list, and I don't play with or against any people on my ignore list.  I've smurfed you before, and I don't like to play with you.  I know your tags - Elrosh and {SB}=>Elrosh - and I won't play with anyone who has those tags.  So unless you have other tags I don't know about....

As far as what I can kill and what I can't kill, as vasari, I can't kill massed illums, and I won't fight a seeker/disciple spammer, I'll just quit.  But I've killed tons of sovas in my life, I just can't kill a sova with a skirantra early game.

I'm not a "newb," I have about 500 games online.  You are derailing my thread.  This topic isn't about whether or not I was in one of your games.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Was it Siddy?

It wasn't him - I know his tags, or at least some of them.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

It wasn't him - I know his tags, or at least some of them.

dont be so sure.. Siddy is known as the king of smurfing...

He probably has about 20 Active smurf accounts right now, so it is quite possible that it was siddy.

_|~Uber

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top



However, until yesterday and last night, I was still in "old school mentality" regarding capships, i.e. NEVER BUILD TOO MANY.  I was on the extreme end of this mentality with the old version of the game, only ever building one cap, and if it ever died, not rebuilding it (and sometimes even opting to not build the free cap - yes I thought capships were that bad in the older version of the game). 

Not everyone agreed with this old-school mentality, even in the last version.  Both Raging Amish and I advocated mixing in capital ships into your fleet, typically keeping your crew research 1 point behind your fleet research.  People who never replaced their capital ships did exist in the last version, but in most cases this was very foolish.  Even if you just needed siege frigate functionality, a capital ship was a better investment than the siege frigates.

 

How many capships?  One Advent player maxed out ALL his capship slots in a game (I think it was a 4v4). 

Now that I haven't seen... must have run very late game and the Advent brought up mass transcendance.

 

1. Has the new gameplay mechanic become "the fleet supports the capships?"  Or is there still a fight going on between "old school" and "new school?"  Who's winning the fight?  Based on what I saw yesterday and last night, "new school" has taken over, but did I just experience weird games or what?  How viable is this?

Contrary to how you portray it, the "new school" and "old school" line of thoughts have been around for a long time.  The "new school" thought has just been somewhat obscure.  While capital ship spam (which I define as having more crew upgrades than fleet upgrades) is new, there have been players who have hedged on building multiple high level capital ships for a long time. 

I think your games there were weird, but they're still indicative that capital ships have a much more profound presence than they used to.  There's a balance to be had; remember that too many capital ships will impact how high a level they reach individually.  I've always valued having an "elite core" of high level capital ships, my late game fleet usually comprising of 3 level 6's and 7's and maybe a few other tagger ons I've added later.

 

2. If the new gameplay mechanic is indeed "caps rule," is it here to stay?  What are the odds the devs will change it back again if they find out what's going on?

That's a question for the devs.  Seeing as no one is asking for a backtrack currently, I doubt they will do so.

 

 

I like the new role of capships, but I've been extremely hesitant to switch my gameplay mechanic because I've either thought "uhh... this is a joke or gimmick, right?" or I feared the devs would just change the mechanic back again.  What are your thoughts?  Who's switching?  Who's staying the same?  Who thinks this is here to stay?  Who thinks it is a gimmick that will eventually be proved non-viable?  Who thinks the devs will revert the gameplay mechanic back the other way (caps support the fleet)?  Your thoughts?

What do I think?  I think that there's always been a degree of choice in the way you used capital ships.  All that's happened is that the realistic boundaries of choice have moved in the direction of more caps.  My typical strategy used to be considered cap-heavy, now it's considered average and cap-heavy is something else entirely.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

dont be so sure.. Siddy is known as the king of smurfing...

He probably has about 20 Active smurf accounts right now, so it is quite possible that it was siddy.

Point taken.

Contrary to how you portray it, the "new school" and "old school" line of thoughts have been around for a long time. The "new school" thought has just been somewhat obscure. While capital ship spam (which I define as having more crew upgrades than fleet upgrades) is new, there have been players who have hedged on building multiple high level capital ships for a long time.

Well, I didn't mean to "portray" it inaccurately, if that's what I did.  I just posted my observations.  If they aren't really representative of what's going on, I stand corrected.

I think your games there were weird...

This is the type of information I'm looking for.  I will say, however, that I have been seeing more and more capships as time goes on.  So it is a trend that has been building over time.  But if you say yesterday's spectacle was just a weird day, well, I accept that.

I think that there's always been a degree of choice in the way you used capital ships.

Well, while I certainly agree that I was on the extreme end of "caps suck - don't build them," I really didn't see a large VIABLE degree of choice in the past on building capships.  Sure, newbs would build nothing BUT capships, but while it certainly represented your "degree of choice," it probably wouldn't have been considered "viable degree of choice."

My typical strategy used to be considered cap-heavy, now it's considered average and cap-heavy is something else entirely.

This is interesting.  So from this statement, I take it that you personally aren't building any more or any fewer caps than you used to?

So Darvin, I guess the main thing I'm really trying to get at is this:  There has always seemed to be some sort of general "dominant strat" in this game that most people will have to use to be successful.  That's not to say that there aren't always a myriad of strats available, but its just to say that fundamental gameplay mechanics tend to dictate certain general strats.  Just to give an example of what I'm talking about, there was a time (you already know this well) when carriers were considered "the backbone of fleets" if you were a carrier friendly guy, or if you hated carriers perhaps you would say "carriers were OP and carrier spam ruled."  But point being, that particular balance dictated a certain dominant strat and playing style.  The same thing with lrm spam, etc.  My question is, is this another one of these "fundamental changes in gameplay mechanic" - something that will dictate a dominant strat?  Or am I just reading too much into this?  That's what I want to know.

Thanks.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Agent, reply 11

I will say, however, that I have been seeing more and more capships as time goes on.  So it is a trend that has been building over time. 

sounds like a classic case of people perfecting build-orders, capship production strategies, and economy optimization.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

This is interesting.  So from this statement, I take it that you personally aren't building any more or any fewer caps than you used to?

I never enter a game with a preconceived notion of what my approach will be.  I have certain tendencies, but my approach always varies based on my situation.  So, even though most of the time I'm still in the same range I used to be, I'm less likely to go low and more likely to go high.  I'm also more likely to pick up my caps a bit sooner than I used to.  The type of caps I pick has also changed (much more likely to go carrier cap).

 

My question is, is this another one of these "fundamental changes in gameplay mechanic" - something that will dictate a dominant strat?

You know, that's a hard question to answer.  Certainly there's a wide range of new strategies, particularly with carrier caps, that are now available.  However, that's not to say that the old stuff doesn't work; bring out enough of them and LRF will hammer the "new and improved" capital ships. 

 

but while it certainly represented your "degree of choice," it probably wouldn't have been considered "viable degree of choice."

I frequently brought out 2 or 3 capital ships relatively early on in the previous version.  You had to watch LRF swarms like a hawk (still do, it's just carrier caps deploy fighters which counter LRF), but it paid off in the long run with multiple high level abilities.  A second capital ship was a more risky investment and needed several levels to pay off, but it worked quite well back then.  All that's changed is that we have more powerful options for lower level caps, so they pay off right out the door.

 

Well, I didn't mean to "portray" it inaccurately, if that's what I did.  I just posted my observations.  If they aren't really representative of what's going on, I stand corrected.

My point is that these ideas aren't "new" or "old".  Both schools of thought have been around for a long time.  All that's happened is that the last patch shifted more popularity from one school of thought to another.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

There is no secret hidden mystery to this game.. its simple and straight-forward. to win you must better your opponent. how you go about it is your business. its all about counters. just because one guy builds 3 or 4 caps doesnt mean I need 5 to counter it. it just means i need CAP KILLER FRIGS. caps may have been buffed. but the only reason you see people making more of them is because of their personal preference or a strategy they have in mind involving the ship. this has nothing to do with current trends of the game. as the game gets older new strategies are formed. what you are witnessing is the evolution of strategy in SoASE.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

There is no secret hidden mystery to this game.. its simple and straight-forward. to win you must better your opponent. how you go about it is your business.

Actually, how you go about it isn't your business.  I don't care if you were Tyr, Cykur, RagingAmish, JJ, whoever, if you just made nothing but capships in the old version of the game, you'd lose.  If you didn't build carriers in the "carrier spam" patch, you'd lose (I know, because I actually made it a point not to build carreirs, LOL).

It just seems to me that there has been a fundamental "sea change" or whatever in this version of the game, but Darvin probably sees it as less of an extreme thing than I do.  And who knows, maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe I'm just getting some incredibly weird games.  I just got out of a 5v5 not 5 minutes ago.  Tons and tons of caps.  By Darvin's definition, it was cap spam all over the place (cap levels researched higher than fleet levels).  One guy had 4 sovas, 3 marzas, 1 dunov, and 1 akkan.  But not everybody spammed caps.  One vasari in particular spammed a ton of transporters (30-something I believe, LOL).

caps may have been buffed. but the only reason you see people making more of them is because of their personal preference or a strategy they have in mind involving the ship. this has nothing to do with current trends of the game.

Oh no.  This definately has to do with the last patch, no question about it.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

What's an "Egg"?

 

I'm relatively new to the game and only play it SP (usually against 2 medium AI's, who always seem to gang up against me). My strategy (for what it is worth), it always to have a balanced fleet, also alligned against the opponent. usually I will have about 4-5 cap ships mid-late game: 2 in an attacking fleet, and 2 for defending purposes, which I combine with repair bays. I don't tend to buy that much cruisers. Do you guys use them a lot? It takes quite some research I believe.

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GJDriessen, reply 16
What's an "Egg"?

its the Vasari Capital Colonizer, Jarrasul Evacuator, it looks like an Egg

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Ryat, reply 17



Quoting GJDriessen,
reply 16
What's an "Egg"?



its the Vasari Capital Colonizer, Jarrasul Evacuator, it looks like an Egg

how come everyone says the egg is so powerful?

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

I am a TEC player who starts out with 2 caps (Akan + Sova) then add two more Sovas and two Dunovs. I have to say I've noticed the change and I love it. I've won games with just using capital ships alone.

I will say however anything over 6 is rediculous because of the price on taxation.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Elrosh, reply 5
So kharma, were you that newb easy random in one of my games last night that couldnt kill a small fleet with sova in them?

 

Hey, THOSE SOVAS WERE MINE! Is kharma "easy random"?

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

how come everyone says the egg is so powerful?

The nano-disassembler, and I guess level 6 drain planet.

I used to be a big vasari player.  But I was never orgasmic over the egg.  Did I use it?  Yes, but for 1 reason - colonization.  I strongly believe in colonization.  I used akkan (NOT marza) prebuff, because of colonization.

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Agent, reply 7
So kharma, were you that newb easy random in one of my games last night that couldnt kill a small fleet with sova in them?

No, I wasn't in your game, because you are one of the many people on my ignore list, and I don't play with or against any people on my ignore list.  I've smurfed you before, and I don't like to play with you.  I know your tags - Elrosh and {SB}=>Elrosh - and I won't play with anyone who has those tags.  So unless you have other tags I don't know about....

As far as what I can kill and what I can't kill, as vasari, I can't kill massed illums, and I won't fight a seeker/disciple spammer, I'll just quit.  But I've killed tons of sovas in my life, I just can't kill a sova with a skirantra early game.

I'm not a "newb," I have about 500 games online.  You are derailing my thread.  This topic isn't about whether or not I was in one of your games.

 

oh snap

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

Are you really going to sit here and tell me i have ABSOLUTELY no choice in the way i choose to play this game? i can tell you right now if i wanted to win with all caps i could. Dont sit there and talk as if you are a pro. ive seen it done before. sure its difficult but it requires a savvy player. end of story. this isnt just because of the new patch. its all about evolution. period.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

Are you really going to sit here and tell me i have ABSOLUTELY no choice in the way i choose to play this game?

No.

i can tell you right now if i wanted to win with all caps i could.

Old patch?  Against a decent player?  Nope (and probably not with the new patch either).

this isnt just because of the new patch. its all about evolution. period.

LOL.

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

we can 1v1 sometime. seeing as you couldnt even handle sovas i doubt anything is impossible in that sort of game..