Supercapital ships in diplomacy? please?

I'm just curious, capital ships are the reason I play sins really. I wondered if adding super capitals into vanilla diplomacy is an option. I'd really love to be able to upgrade 1 lv10 cap to a lv1 supercap with one of the later fleet capacity researches. Imagine if it lost an ability and gained a new, overpowered one and gained a 50-100% health and stats increase. Or better yet retained it's old abilities and gained a new ability and new lv6 ability.

You could keep the same models, just larger... or stick bits on. (like adding an extra weapon to each.)

Suggested and shot down before?

34,824 views 52 replies
Reply #1 Top

Im gonna say nope, not in the theme of Diplomacy.

Reply #2 Top

Supercapitals is something I wanted from the first time I played Sins, though I agree with -Ue_Carbon, it doesn't fit the theme of this expansion.

That said, if this is indeed the last planned expansion, it needs doing now!

I appreciate it's a lot of work, but it would add another level to the game - my idea was something along the lines of;

 

- Three different designs for each race, meaning 9 in total (I said it was a lot, but I'm aiming for perfection here!)

- Only one supercapital per player at any one time - this forces the player to choose which would be most useful

- Just as there are different types of capital ships, the supercapitals would come in various flavours. Each race would have one of their three SCs as an all-out-attack ship, but the other two would have different functions based on the race in question, for example the vasari might have a slow moving, high defence but low vs ship attack SC designed to take out planets, or an ultra-fast jump ship that completely ignores gravity wells and excels in hit-and-run attacks, taking out key installations in heavily defended space then jumping away before it gets hit (because it can't take much punishment). The advent might have SCs based around mass control of enemy units, or perhaps an enhanced version of shield regeneration (passive?), while the TEC could have a ship that builds frigates on the fly, or something that enhances trade.

- SCs are late-game ships. The player has to research the appropriate technology for each of the three ships... because the ships are different, these may not be in the same tree. In this way, a player with only a few planets will have to decide to focus on one tree over another if they mean to reach the point where they can get a SC without expanding. This could be a great table-turner in smaller matches, where a player chooses to play defensively, trying to hold off their opponent until they can get a SC. It's the sort of thing that makes games great - the incentive to take a big risk in the hope that it pays off. It also makes opponents less predictable, as there are even more paths to victory. On a small map, a SC would be less limited by being a lot of power in one place. On a larger map the power of the ship itself may be muted by a lack of being able to be everywhere at once, and the more subtle SC designs will come into their own.

- Needless to say, SCs are expensive, and take up lots of fleet capacity, so the player has to decide whether it's really worth it.

- The key to making it work, I think, would be that only 1 can be built (until it is destroyed, which will be difficult if they are used properly) The balance will be in making it so that an inexperienced player may be disadvantaged if they choose to build a SC and they don't know how to properly make use of it, as they have less capability to build other ships which may in total be stronger. Proper application of a SC though will result in an overall advantage... until your opponent gets one. That said, depending on what type they choose, the two may never come head to head.

- A SC obviously becomes the flagship as soon as it is built - and this should have some effect other than just being a title. Destroying an enemy flagship could be the target of a mission, whether it be a standard capital or a SC. To make it work, there would have to be some negative side effect to losing your flagship, perhaps a hit in income for the TEC, a loss of alleigence for the advent and an increase in ship build cost for the vasari? These would be temporary, certainly, but could also be locallised, with the strongest effect closest to where the event occurred?

- Size-wise, the SCs need to be larger than the capitals, but not necessarily enormous. SCs designed for combat will tend to be bigger and meaner, perhaps 3x the length of a standard capital? SCs designed for other purposes will have appropriate sizes - planet destroyers have to be very large indeed, perhaps half the size of a starbase? Fast SCs will be smaller, perhaps only slightly larger than standard capitals.

 

I'm sure I had some other ideas too, but I can't remember them right now. Still, I thought i'd share these, and this seemed the thread to do it!

 

Yslen

Reply #3 Top

I can't speak for them, but Ironclad previously has said they don't like the idea of superpowerful units in Sins.  Unless they've changed their minds, I doubt you'll see these added... and as has been mentioned, it doesn't fit with what they're trying to do with Diplomacy.

 

Of course, there's always mods for this kind of thing :)

Reply #4 Top

Umm, how can you all say no that this doesent fit the theme of Sins when Sins is NOT just about being diplomatic. Its still a war game and many people like myself will still want to fight it out to the end.  Super Capships are needed.  I like the idea and they should be limited to one. This could be the main fleets flagship.  To say no is utter crap.

Reply #5 Top

To say yes is silly. If you want to resort to that lvl.

This is not the first topic about 'super' caps. Like it mentioned right above you....Devs said no. And this game doesnt need super ships...it will just turn out like Sup Com...a race to the expermentals.

And I can say that it doesnt fit the theme, b/c THIS expansion is about Diplomacy. NOT super ships.

Reply #6 Top

Not only that but Super Caps wont bring diversity or even a decent challenge. Itll upset the balance that the game already struggles to keep.

I can see asking for more diversity ship wise like having a bigger choice in the way your cruisers and frigates stand up in battle. Like heavier shields or heavier weapons etc etc. But to ask for something that will obviously dominate everything  is just nonsense.

Reply #7 Top

The question is, what role would these huge ships play? Frigates serve to act as an escort to the larger cruisers, who preform the heavy hitting, and capital ships serve mainly to augment fleet abilities, as opposed to acting as stand alone death barges. That's what the game is about; balancing your fleet while taking advantage of the imbalances of the enemies. Super capital ships, by their nature, are ships designed to obliterate enemy capital ships, who already are fairly fragile. That would probably result in a very boring cat and mouse game, where super capital ships go hunting for capital ships, who have to go hide everytime they expose themselves.

Its fine for mods, where balance isn't a big issue, but it would get rather tiresome for the regular players.

I will admit, however, that a super massive captial ship who's only weapons are hugs and encouraging messages to other players ("Have a SUPER day!") would make for a hillarious easter egg.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Darksxx, reply 4
Umm, how can you all say no that this doesent fit the theme of Sins when Sins is NOT just about being diplomatic. Its still a war game and many people like myself will still want to fight it out to the end.  Super Capships are needed.  I like the idea and they should be limited to one. This could be the main fleets flagship.  To say no is utter crap.

It doesn't fit with the Diplomacy expansion. And Sins is NOT just a war game, it is also 4x. Not all of those x's have something to do with fighting. And diplomacy is an important part of war.

Reply #9 Top

a super nano bomb :) imagine the possibilities... i could see this working i would really go for this idea.

i dont think level 10 cap to level 1 supercap is appropriate, unless you really think the games would last that long, i know personally, that they do not last that long online.  maybe if you needed to make a supercaptial ship factory, take 150 fleet supply, and something you could probably only afford with a very big econ it would be alot of fun!

i think this idea could work

 

Reply #10 Top

I can't speak for them, but Ironclad previously has said they don't like the idea of superpowerful units in Sins.

 

like the lums, guardians, and marza... now the kortul too...

Reply #11 Top

I wasn't planning on supercapitals being overpowered and being able to take out other capitals instantly. Still lose when outnumbered, but improve the survival time (to stop them going pop at the start of a battle) because they would be more of a focus fire target. I doubt it'd be hard to think of a way to make them fit in diplomacy:

Make them carry a Liason from another empire with a 25% cut in (envoy) diplomatic ties if lost, say going from 130% with pacts to 110% and losing *all* pacts until envoys return the bonus. I suppose if you were going that way you'd need a pact to upgrade to them. Say as TEC get a pact with Vas and get a higher HP cap (low HP growth) with phase missles as a possible passive upgrade, regeneration rates and phase speed. Make the exp to next level very high and if it needs balance make the loss on death increase based on its level, at lv10 losing 100% diplomacy rating because you lose the general of another empire would drastically reduce your trade, weapons and regeneration rates.

Another option is for them to have diplomatic abilities and improved health but much weaker weapons (remove a hardpoint or half the value or lower lv increase). That way you could send them into enemy territory and (for example)... enforce a 60sec cease fire (180 sec cooldown), combined with envoys to really try to push up the diplomatic rating. Maybe have those diplomatic penalties decay over time when this ship is by the enemy homeworld and the toggled ability 'broker peace' is active (weapons disabled, passive regeneration disabled, armour penalty - reducing the war penalties, not the mission strength penalties). Imagine a fleet of envoys, repair cruisers all lead by a Diplomatic akkan? (If you only needed 1 diplomatic one, the coloniser for each race would work, maybe switch the eggs lv6 ability with one that adds resources to the target world for a diplomacy boost)
Just a thought, It'd be nice to have a choice, diplomatic supercap or war? with the choice not being so obvious. The penalties for a war cap and the requirements may mean you almost always use diplomatic, except in team games.

Still, I think it could add to diplomacy to have some ships other than the envoys which I currently dislike (for the micromanagement and sheer number of them). That boosts the envoy relations concept.

Reply #12 Top

Your misunderstanding what Diplomacy is all about, its an effort to correct the diplomacy features in the game and give the players a better ability to work outside of clashing units. No need to add a unit that does the opposite of what the expansion is meant for.

Reply #13 Top

diplomacy as a last expansion should be about filling in the missing features. Yes I know it's a stretch to tie supercapitals to diplomacy. I just find late games unbearably dull in sins. I like the first few mins, the first starbase, the first big fight... which is all fun, but after a while it starts to get tedius... your unique capitals turn into swarms of capitals that swamp enemy planets or go pop against equally large fleets.

I'm just wondering if there's any way the idea for supercapitals can be saved. I'd like a little something to combat the late game tedium. A nice big ship with fun abilities is one option. So are the difficult to achieve pacts and the diplomatic teamwork. I'd say to allegiance86, your tone isn't so useful. "just nonesence" and "opposite of diplomacy"? in entrenchment they added defence busting ships... which is the exact oposite of defences. Sometimes you need both a good feature and it's opposite. Supercaps could be either tied to features or just the opposite. Either way they would add some fun. Doubt they'll go in, but even if not I'll end up playing a mod with them. Unlikely to be as well balanced/integrated with diplomacy as they would be if they were in vanilla for everyone to test.

Reply #14 Top

diplomacy as a last expansion should be about filling in the missing features. Yes I know it's a stretch to tie supercapitals to diplomacy. I just find late games unbearably dull in sins. I like the first few mins, the first starbase, the first big fight... which is all fun, but after a while it starts to get tedius... your unique capitals turn into swarms of capitals that swamp enemy planets or go pop against equally large fleets.

It's not the last expansion. Diplomacy is the last micro expansion. At PAX they hinted that something else, like a full expansion or a sequal, might be comeing after Diplomacy is done. Supercaps could be on the table for whatever's next, who knows? but they do not fit in at all with Diplomacy.

Reply #15 Top

Maybe what you could do, to kinda tie it in with Diplomacy, is make building one cause a hit to be taken with all diplomatic relations because when it just comes down to it, you just built a ship completely dedicated to war

Reply #16 Top

You guys crack me up, you say it doesnt fit the theme but if thats the case than why did IC add two more Incredibly harder AI difficultiues?  If thats not telling you that they are pushin the AI for exstreme attacks then what is?  Cause Im confused if those 2 new AI setting are not for players that like total war.. and lets not forget about the new shared Weapons Tech thats added.  seems to me its still all about war.

Reply #17 Top

Maybe they were shooting (yes I know a war term) for an AI that is harder to deal with in all ascpets (like diplomatically). Also you only get those fancy Weapons Tech if you practice Diplomacy. Oh and since when does Diplomacy mean that war would not occur or be stopped. Half the time Diplomacy meant getting together with someone to defeat a common enemy then stab your partner in the back (WWII to Post WWII America Russian relationsip as an example)

Reply #18 Top

*facepalm* Just an epic facepalm. Sigh, for everyone who  think there should be superweapons/supercap ships, Might I remind you of Sup Com. Ever play that game? You wanna know how to win it? Easy spam those 'super caps' till kingdom come. He who had the Experementals (supercaps) first won. Geee...that sounds like a whole lot of fun there.:rolleyes:

And again, IC has said no supercaps...so why must we drag this on?!? Even more so when you want add it to Diplomacy!?! This expansions is about exploitment. Not *in an echoing voice* SUUUPPPEERRRR CAPPPSSS!!!! *end echo*. Again this is a cry for a I win button. Much like some other request *Cough* nerf scouts *cough*

 

If yall honestly want supercaps....please please mod them. They have no place in un-mod SINS.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting -Ue_Carbon, reply 18
*facepalm* Just an epic facepalm.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NowtEh8snVE

2. I really like the *idea* of supercapital ships, but we're not getting them in Diplomacy, and I think doing them well would be extraordinarily difficult (but also REALLY COOL).

3. I didn't actually read this thread, I just felt like tossing in my two cents!

Reply #20 Top

-Ue_Carbon you really need to read what I fricking wrote dude. I said that if we did have them than,  let me say it again than they should be limited to ONE!!!!  per race. this would be the flagship and Im not saying make this the end all ship.  It would be a flagship has special powers that would enhance the other caps in the fleet but by its self it would be vunurable.  You guys really need to get off your high horses.

Reply #21 Top

you really need to read what I fricking wrote dude.

Take your own advice.

 

I said that if we did have them than, let me say it again than they should be limited to ONE!!!! per race.

 

One to many.

 

It would be a flagship has special powers that would enhance the other caps in the fleet but by its self it would be vunurable.
 

So you want a special super cap that already does what current caps do?!?!

 

You guys really need to get off your high horses.

After you good sir.

Reply #22 Top

You know carbon your nothing more than a fricking idiot!

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Darksxx, reply 22
You know carbon your nothing more than a fricking idiot!

Ah, Im glad we are back in 4th grade. Well in that case...Im a rubber you are glue!

Ooooo...or my personal favorite, I know you are but what am I!

 

Ah now that we got that out of system...back to OP. To answer your question...yes it was shot down many many many many moons ago. In the famous words for the stormtrooper who let those droids go, "Move along..."

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Reply #24 Top

Dark, your seriously argueing with someone thats well respected on this site. The guy isnt saying no because he has it out for you. Its because your idea doesnt fit SINs nor does it fit the current expansion set to be released.

You totally described a Capital ship when describing what your SUPER CAPs would be. What do you think Capitals do? They have special powers. they have the ability to enhance other Capital Ships and the support/escort craft around it. Its utterly vulnerable by itself unless its a battleship type then it has a good chance of survival against smaller numbers.

And for the guy that tried to argue improved AI..thats something the community has been begging for FOREVER. Theyve been meaning to get around to it for awhile. And Im sure if they had the time they would have done it in Entrenchment. But with the new Diplomatic abilites creating an EASIER way to work with allies. It makes sense that they would increase the DIFFICULTY of something else in game.

Reply #25 Top

The Ai improvements made thus far IMO have really improved the game alot. I, for various reasons only play single player and until this expansion had found games to becoming a bit run of the mill. I would think multiplayer's that use AI opponants would benifit from this also.

I can see how people who predominatly use multiplayer without AI could benefit by gettinng super caps, but are there that many that don't even activate Pirates? I don't know!

I for one would much rather the Dev's kept putting thier time into improving AI, than on super caps, which some of the modding community have already created.

I'm sorry but thats my feeling anyway.