Oh I’ve got all year

from JoeUser Forums

As mentioned recently, I occasionally get flame mails from people who don’t realize I work at Stardock. They think I’m trolling against Elemental.

So to be clearer, my point is simply that we have all year or years to get this game where we want it. I’m in no hurry.  I bloody want a game that if I hung out with the guys who made Age of Wonders Shadow Magic, Master of Magic or any of the other games of the genre they’d say “That’ll do, Frog, that’ll do.”

As Boogie mentioned, we’re working on the discussion system. Now you might wonder why a strategy game would have such a sophisticated conversation engine under the covers.  Well, for one thing, what if 5 years from now some guy wants to make an RPG that uses the Elemental engine? We need to be ready for that. We need to support that.

Plus, as the AI developer, the AI shouldn’t just play intelligently, it should let players know it’s playing intelligently. Though, admittedly, this time, the text is being written largely by our friends at Del Rey (Random House) rather than my meager abilities.

I don’t want to sound like the game has some sort of utopian vision behind it. I know at some point we’re going to release this game – probably next Summer or Fall but the point is that that is going to based on a consensus of the beta testers.

I look at Elemental at something we’re going to work on for years to come. So yea, I’m saying right now that the release date is a bit arbitrary because I plan to keep working on it years after released. Don’t expect any sequels to it any time soon either.

The engine being made for this game is just such a joy.

Consider this:

From 1997 to 2006 we had one engine called “Pear”.  It was a 2D sprite engine that got updated to support some 3D for Galactic Civilizations II.  Working with Elemental is just ridiculously enjoyable.

Now, for those of you not in the beta program, don’t feel bad. Right now the “game” is so bad that several users have reported hemorrhaging.  We hope they make a full recovery.  If I had had my way, they wouldn’t have gotten the cloth map even but rather an Ultima IV style map.  Green dots on a black background should be more than enough I say.

The next beta, due out the Thursday after Thanksgiving, is the first one with any diplomacy or AI in it.  We’ll see how it goes.  After that, we start supporting multiplayer.

Some users have asked us about a console version. It won’t be happening. I love my Xbox 360 but until 1080p is allowed as a minimum standard and mouse support normal, a game like Elemental won’t be happening on the console.

Have a great weekend.

105,483 views 48 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Ahhhh, one patch a month! My hemorrhaging just got worse.

I want you to know that you're responsible for turning me to the dark side. Literally. While I'm waiting I've actually started playing evil factions for Galciv 2 because total ownage playing as the Iconians has gotten too easy.

P.S. - Xbox 360? Don't you know your kids need a Wii?

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Nice post. Well, I think that the release date will be something like 2010 winter, but it's no problem. :)

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

The next beta, due out the Thursday after Thanksgiving, is the first one with any diplomacy or AI in it. We’ll see how it goes. After that, we start supporting multiplayer.

At least we'll have the Diplomacy beta for the long weekend:P

 

Some users have asked us about a console version. It won’t be happening. I love my Xbox 360 but until 1080p is allowed as a minimum standard and mouse support normal, a game like Elemental won’t be happening on the console.

I think I would have to kill someone if Elemental (or Sins or any halfway decent strategy game) went to a console>:(

Anyway, I'm glad you guys are taking your time. I get the feeling that some games get rushed simply because "oh, we can patch it later if something comes up." It is really nice when games are polished before the release.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Winter 2010 is fine for me. Take your time. This game is going to be great!

 

Oh to flamers... shut up... Elemental is not going to be released for a year...

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Ah, I'm so strongly reminded of early Brad McQuaid Vanguard posts... and I'm prepared to believe again ;) Especially since the thing which ultimately sank VG (microsoft dumping it) can't happen here.

Regards,

Kul

 

PS Ultima IV style map would've been awesome. I loved that game to death - the last in the whole franchise I enjoyed.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

I have all the time in the multiverse, so please don't feel rushed......... it's not like I have anything better to do around here than test and test again.....

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Putting it on a console would be fine if like Brad said: mouse support. It's the controls that really make it in this case. I'd have no objection to playing on my couch with the TV if I could use a mouse.

A gamepad? No chance in hell.

Several genres are like that, I wish Microsoft (or Sony) would do something that way.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 3

The next beta, due out the Thursday after Thanksgiving, is the first one with any diplomacy or AI in it. We’ll see how it goes. After that, we start supporting multiplayer.


At least we'll have the Diplomacy beta for the long weekend
Ummm he said the Thursday AFTER Thanksgiving :'(


 
Some users have asked us about a console version. It won’t be happening. I love my Xbox 360 but until 1080p is allowed as a minimum standard and mouse support normal, a game like Elemental won’t be happening on the console.


I think I would have to kill someone if Elemental (or Sins or any halfway decent strategy game) went to a console

Anyway, I'm glad you guys are taking your time. I get the feeling that some games get rushed simply because "oh, we can patch it later if something comes up." It is really nice when games are polished before the release.

I have felt for a while that August 2010 was pretty iffy - based on the Beta schedule and the rate of progress things would have to speed up - a LOT - to get thru the planned schedule by next August. Not saying it couldn't happen, but this post kind of confirms my belief.

I just hope we have something FUN and DECENTLY STABLE by the end of Feb 2010. Once it reaches the stable and fun stage, I don't think most of us care too much how long it takes, as long as it doesn't become Duke Nukem Forever - which I have complete faith that StarDock would never allow to happen.

And I don't mean to imply that I am not enjoying participating in the beta. I just hope the next build fixes some of my CTD issues so that I can test for an appreciable amount of time without crashing. I'm not hemorraging yet, and it really has been no worse than I expected. I just hope another month or three will have most of the game crashing resolved. (Yes, I realize with new code being added all the time new crashes will get introduced).

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

AI and diplomacy? That's more than I hoped for! That really is fantastic news. These two features are the ones that are the more sorely lacking in the current beta and even though trying out build patterns and fiddling with UI and such is pretty fun in itself, having semi-decent opponents will really make all the testing more exciting.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

As Boogie mentioned, we’re working on the discussion system. Now you might wonder why a strategy game would have such a sophisticated conversation engine under the covers.  Well, for one thing, what if 5 years from now some guy wants to make an RPG that uses the Elemental engine? We need to be ready for that. We need to support that.

I don't think that it is actually a good idea. Ok modding is cool, but I expect mods to be variation of the same style of game. I don't expect to get an RPG  or an First person shooter from a 4x strategy game. I expect another 4X strategy game as a mod. I had the chance to try an RPG mod for starcraft and it sucks. Because starcraft was not designed for this and that is OK.

So yes, you can allow yourself some flexibility but you cannot make a game that could recreate any game possible.

When you start designing a game, you have the expansion phase, this is the phase where everybody get with their ideas of what could be cool in the game. After the design has reached a certain size, it must shrink it back. You would eventually have to discard features and focus on what is really important.

Else you'll end up wasting time coding stuff that are not that much useful. The time and money could be better spent elsewhere. One of the thing you could do is work from a general to detail approach. First start with the basic concepts that are absolutely essential to the game and make them work. Make the game playable even if there are tons of missing features. Then you can refine stuff until you can afford it.

AI speech is nice, but it is really details. If there is no speach, it does not affect the game play. For example, for the diplomatic system, you should try to know what are the actions/treaties the player can do. Make the AI respond yes/no and that's all (even the decision could be random). Afterward, you make the AI take intelligent decisions and then you can add speech.

But if you absolutely have no idea of what are the player's options in diplomacy and you are currently working on coding speech, you are placing the carriage in front of the horses.

---

Oh by the way, Ultima IV is cool. I would have like seeing this game be remaked with an engine like fable.

Elemental on Console could be pretty interesting. Civilization could do it why not elementat. On console, you are probably going to get known better especially on Xbox arcade where people can easily see new games and download them to test it. (well, I think other console can do that too. )

 

 

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Don't worry about it Frog I will soon have ME2 and TOR to keep me busy until Elemental is out so take your time and make it AWSOME! lol

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 3

The next beta, due out the Thursday after Thanksgiving, is the first one with any diplomacy or AI in it. We’ll see how it goes. After that, we start supporting multiplayer.





At least we'll have the Diplomacy beta for the long weekend

Ummm he said the Thursday AFTER Thanksgiving

Sorry. I meant the Sins of a Solar Empire: Diplomacy beta that starts tomorrow, not the Elemental beta with diplomacy in it. We'll have the Sins: Diplomacy for the long weekend.

Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top

Putting it on a console would be fine if like Brad said: mouse support. It's the controls that really make it in this case. I'd have no objection to playing on my couch with the TV if I could use a mouse.

A gamepad? No chance in hell.

Several genres are like that, I wish Microsoft (or Sony) would do something that way.

Sony supports keyboard and mouse support with the PS3. The PS3 Red Alert version had full keyboard and mice support and you could play completely with that if you so chose, which wouldu probably the be case if you had a crappy computer that couldn't run it smoothly.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

It's great to hear that you got all the time in the world so the game will get all the time it needs. It's only Stardock and Blizzard that have stated that they can take as long as they wish. I think Valve too have said that they will take as long as needed so that's 3 gamecompanies. Always something.

 

My post that got deleted in this thread wasn't aimed at you in particular. It was honest with no sugarcoating though so I understand if people found it offensive.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting larienna, reply 10

but I expect mods to be variation of the same style of game. I don't expect to get an RPG  or an First person shooter from a 4x strategy game.  

He wasn't talking about mods.  He was talking about the game's engine which they spent forever building.  Having built the engine of awesomeness, they will be using it to make many more games, and probably do as most people do and  license the engine to other developers.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

What date is thursday after thanksgiving (we dont celebrate the killing of turkeys in Norway)?

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Taking the time to make a quality product is A.O.K. in my book :thumbsup: . I don't mind time between patches either as I have a lot of hope that stability will be greatly improved and we'll get some serious testing in for the new systems. A better build to test and to really dig deep is great, and that takes time.

Note: I can't believe some people still don't know who you are.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 18
Taking the time to make a quality product is A.O.K. in my book . I don't mind time between patches either as I have a lot of hope that stability will be greatly improved and we'll get some serious testing in for the new systems. A better build to test and to really dig deep is great, and that takes time.

Note: I can't believe some people still don't know who you are.

I just hope its new people and not someone who is frequently or semifrequently here that is the aqusors, since then it would mean the comunity and Impulse/Stardocks power is growing.. ;)

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 18
I have a lot of hope that stability will be greatly improved

Indeed. I cannot even complete a single game in Elemental right now, because of the Caravan related crash. :(

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't think that it is actually a good idea. Ok modding is cool, but I expect mods to be variation of the same style of game. I don't expect to get an RPG or an First person shooter from a 4x strategy game. I expect another 4X strategy game as a mod. I had the chance to try an RPG mod for starcraft and it sucks. Because starcraft was not designed for this and that is OK.

So yes, you can allow yourself some flexibility but you cannot make a game that could recreate any game possible.

I also don't think a RPG can be made with an engine devised for TBS, but roguelikes do look like TBS a lot, nad they are RPGs. I can imagine a game like ADOM using an engine like that of TBS. Civ IV's Fall from Heaven and a few modmods therein used some dialogue options, so a strong dialogue may be a good idea.

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LDiCesare, reply 21
I don't think that it is actually a good idea. Ok modding is cool, but I expect mods to be variation of the same style of game. I don't expect to get an RPG or an First person shooter from a 4x strategy game. I expect another 4X strategy game as a mod. I had the chance to try an RPG mod for starcraft and it sucks. Because starcraft was not designed for this and that is OK.

So yes, you can allow yourself some flexibility but you cannot make a game that could recreate any game possible.

I also don't think a RPG can be made with an engine devised for TBS, but roguelikes do look like TBS a lot, nad they are RPGs. I can imagine a game like ADOM using an engine like that of TBS. Civ IV's Fall from Heaven and a few modmods therein used some dialogue options, so a strong dialogue may be a good idea.

Then you simply don't understand what a game engine is..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Tons of these games, for example are nothing like a FPS.. Mortal Combat vs DC Universe..Adventure pinball... Harry Potter...

 

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting KellenDunk, reply 22



Quoting LDiCesare,
reply 21
I don't think that it is actually a good idea. Ok modding is cool, but I expect mods to be variation of the same style of game. I don't expect to get an RPG or an First person shooter from a 4x strategy game. I expect another 4X strategy game as a mod. I had the chance to try an RPG mod for starcraft and it sucks. Because starcraft was not designed for this and that is OK.

So yes, you can allow yourself some flexibility but you cannot make a game that could recreate any game possible.

I also don't think a RPG can be made with an engine devised for TBS, but roguelikes do look like TBS a lot, nad they are RPGs. I can imagine a game like ADOM using an engine like that of TBS. Civ IV's Fall from Heaven and a few modmods therein used some dialogue options, so a strong dialogue may be a good idea.



Then you simply don't understand what a game engine is..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Tons of these games, for example are nothing like a FPS.. Mortal Combat vs DC Universe..Adventure pinball... Harry Potter...

 

I would counter that the purpose of a game engine is to eliminate much of the huge amount of the nuts and bolts work needed to make a game. If you want to make a mod, you really, really want to start with a game that's close to what you are wanting to do. I could probably wrangle the Civ4 engine into an RPG, but I shudder at the thought...

If the Elemental engine will be flexible enough to remake any TBS already published, without one having to throw away most of the structures in place for Elemental, I'll be pleasantly surpirsed.

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

The comment that started this conversation was that this guy was confusing making mods with making other games using this engine....This engine that Frogboy has said on more than one occasion was designed to be the core of their titles going forward.

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

Then you simply don't understand what a game engine is..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Tons of these games, for example are nothing like a FPS.. Mortal Combat vs DC Universe..Adventure pinball... Harry Potter...

They are like in the sense they show about as many characters. Does any of these show something like hundreds of soldiers, each with its own animations, at the same time? Is there a single RTS developped on this engine? Its scope is about a few individuals. Can it render hundreds and thousands at decent fps like an RTS would require?

I admit that my comment was poorly written and I had more a mod of the game in mind, but I know the difference, thank you.

Have you ever looked at Fall from Heaven code? When you change half the C++ of a game, you might still want to call it a mod, but it's, honestly, very far-fetched. It's actually a new game based on Civ IV. The distinction between mod and game depends on what the developpers open up. Colonization is sold as a game but it probably is more of a Civ IV mod than Fall from Heaven is.

 

Stardock has been quite explicit that they're doing a game engine optimised for TBS. Can a TBS-optimised game engine be good for non strategy games? There's no such engine out there, as far as I know, so it's hard to compare.

Now, Stardock will want to make an RPG with their engine. Brad said/hinted so already. But they'll have to rewrite and optimize stuff for it under all likelihood, which an external user wouldn't be able to do. They'll be rewriting their engine in order to accomodate the RPG. So in the end, they will have a generic game engine able to do both RPGs and TBS, because they'll be designing it for both. Still, I don't think it would be a good choice to pick up an engine designed for zooming out far and managing lots of LODs and thousands of units if you know you're never going to display more than fifty units at a given time. It's feasible in-house when you can tweak the code of the engine, but is it really useful for an external customer of the engine?