Infinite Tech, Potential and traps

from Elemental Forums

Goodmorning all,

I just wanted to voice some thoughts on Infinte tech.


Firstly, I want to say i am in favour of infinte tech, in principle. Infinite tech trees are more interesting then artificially teminating ones.

But,  i would like to warn against a few traps that are easy to fall into.

Going nowhere 'fast or slow':
  The tech trees of Civ4 (and others), Masters of Orion, and most others are all . . . at least technically speaking, infinite. They have 'future tech' which you can get any number of. . . but the techs in questiion do nothing, or do nothing worth mentioning.  (there is only so much + 1 health +1 happyness you can use after all). 
an infinite tech tree must continue to provide meaningful bonuses, and still contain choices which effect the game.

Too little, too late: 
  It's a common temptation to have later techs cost exponentially more, each further tech costing 1.25 as much as the previous future tech.. but unless the payouts are HUGE it quickly becomes not worth the resourses to continue research. . . the tech tree goes on, but nobody follows it because troops are just worth so much more then the huge investment costs of techs.

The unending narrow road:
   GC 2 could easily have had a unending tech tree, at the end of each just have the comp pull a new name from a list, ad +1 attack over the previous tech, add + 2 to base size over previous tech, and have 3 or 4 upgrades reducing size by 5% for before getting a new name and tech.  (for attack defence techs, but all the other streams were the same) . . . .but it still would have been painfully dull.  Tech trees NEED TO BRANCH (and preferably weave)  Techs must have prerequisites other then 'the one just before this one'. A high level infinite tech should be have semi random prerequisits amoungst other infinite (and normal) techs. Swords ++++ might need farming +, why?  it keeps the tech tree interesting, and prevents someone from over focusing,  To get much past XYZ (6) the random prerequites should have required you research almost all the normal techs.  (XYZ (6) needs ABC (1) and FGH (4) which needs YUI (2) and QWE (2),  one of which needs XYZ (1) , for example.  End result you have to have at least all of ABC, FGH, YUI, and QWE and some more).

Suggestion Geometric Effect:

In General Infinite techs should contribute geometrically,  some techs this won't work for, but rather then  Farming + gives + X% * (Base farming), it should be X%*(total farming output including all other bonuses).  The end effect is that nomatter how far down the infinite tree you still have techs that matter (a 10% bonus to all sword damage is always a 10% bonus, a +2 to sword damage quickly becomes 40+2  each tech matters less and less).

Just some thoughts i thought i'd share, What do people think ?

Take care
 Robbie

34,922 views 5 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't actually mind diminishing returns on "infinite" techs.  Continuing to specialize after you've reached the "end" of the tree seems like it could easily spiral out of control, Farming 1 reqs be damned.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I think their should be a hidden tech way-late game which allows you to summon one permanent Arnor ^_^

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Yup, diminishing returns seems the only way for me know.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Goodmorning all,

I don't see why deminishing returns are nessisaray, or even remotely desirable.

considering that we've already been promiced that end game power will be exponetial with unlocking more and more powerful spells, and gaining more and more power faster and faster...  it only makes sence to me that the infinite techs should follow the same, general, theme.

Then you put in semi randomly assigned cross disipline prerequisits (one because it makes it more intersting, and two so that you can't have swords 4.993 and axes 1.0  )

what is the point of having an infinite tech tree if it's deminishing returns. . .  a deminishing returns tech tree is the same as a finite tech tree just that people stop because there is no point continueing, rather then stopping because they run out; Same effect the tech tree stops.

Just my thoughts

   Robbie

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Robbie, I think you underemphasized one of your more important points.

You saide "and still contain choices which effect the game.". Allow me to rephrase that:

"Have meaningful decisions". Let's break the idea down to base parts, those of you who ever GM'd an RP game should know this.

Meaningful decisions means two things. The first is that the player has the ability to choose. If there is no choice, there is no fun (and therefore no point). I.E. Civ's research becomes pointless when you reach the future tech because you no longer need to make a choice.

The second part of the idea is that the decision the player makes matters. Having multiple choices that all gives the same result is pointless (and therefore not fun). For a decision to be meaningful the player needs to a) be aware of the possibilities and b) be aware of the reprecautions. So, IMHO, a good research tree will give you the ability to choose between saveral different options, each of them giving a definite (and useful) bonus. The moment either of these criteria are not met than we have a shitty research system.

 

For future tech, my suggestion is this: Don't do it.

Make the tree big, make the tree complex, make the final techs exponentially harder to get, but don't bullshit us.

When a player researches *everything* (which should happen only in a 'sandbox' setting) he just get's "omnipotence" and has access to the wizard tool (able to modify the game as if he creates a premade map). Either that or Science Victory.