Another Presidential Proclamation

1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. 3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. 

I don't know why you always associate homosexuality with ungodliness.

King David was gay. He was still one of the greatest kings the world has ever seen.

And yes, he did love Jonathan more than he loved women.

I don't think with all the things going on in the world today G-d will worry about a gay pride month. After all, never in history has homosexuality destroyed a society and societies that allowed homosexuality have always outperformed societies that didn't.

The state of Israel is now more powerful than it ever was in history. This has to do with G-d's favour, I am sure. But why he favours a secular country with legalised homosexuality over all the countries around it that see homosexuality like you do remains to be seen.

(Outside Israel only Jordan and Iraq have legalised homosexuality. Turkey legalised homosexuality in the mid-1800s. Can't say that Turkey is less powerful or successful than, say, Syria.)

Interesting, a gay, lesbian, etc Pride day. So why exactly do we need a Pride Day for? Where's my Man Day? or wheres Womans Day? You know not every man is a father, not every woman is a mother or secretary. Talk about unfairness. What about those men and women who are not parents, who don't have secretar jobs, who are stay husbands and wifes or sons and daughters. What about uncles and aunts day? This is not fair. What about Straight Pride day?

exactly.  I thought of that as well. 

WHERE IN THE WORLD DO YOU GET THAT KING DAVID WAS GAY?  You've got to be kidding.  David had wives not husbands.  Did you not remember his adultery with Bathsheba.  He saw her bathing on the roof and took her even tho she was married?  He greatly grieved over that sin and paid dearly for it by losing 4 sons as a result. 

 His relationship with Jonathan was NOT sexual.  A man can have a deep beautiful loving friendship with another man and it not be sexual.  My husband has a dear godly friend similar to what we read hear about Jonathan and David.  They pray together, trust each other completely  and they are best friends but they don't have sex with each other. 

Jonathan was considered royalty. The stripping of his Royal robe has huge significance of a Royal recognizing a man of God.  Here Jonathan (a prince in the royal court) forsake his Kingly physical Father for David knowing who David was.  The Messiah would come thru the line of David.  He understood the roles completely.  David, in the eyes of God, was the genuine Royalty, not Jonathan nor Saul. 

You may want to go back and read the Torah Leauki.  Men having sex with men is a very serious sin against God. 

Homosexuality destroys the ability of men to be really close friends.  You see it right there.  They were close, loved each other, and all Leauki thinks of is SEX.  It had nothing to do with sex.  Jesus loves me, he doesn't want to have sex with me.  We've forgotten that people can be close without sex.

Oh come on Charles, really? Let them celebrate, jesus. In fact, here....have your Man Day; Lets just forget about Birthday's, every day, and so on so forth.  

That's merely your opinion, not fact. I can refute it with the fact that I have six friends who are some of the closest friends I have, and they are gay. We've no issues what-so-ever. I would venture to say that it isn't homosexuality, but lack of comfort around due to ignorance and such, that can create what you claim.

But not Lesbians?

At least there can't be any unwanted pregnancies.

LOL, I don't mind a Gay Pride Day. It bugs me that it's done not because they deserve it but for political reasons. It's like making an ACORN Pride Day. Get my point? As a man, I think I deserve a day more than gay people do. As a man, I am responsible for making sure our race, the human race, lives on. Even in a Lesbian relationship a man is needed to conceive, even if not physically.

The same goes for women, without them humanity would not exist. We can call it mothers day or fathers day but what about those who are not parents? Don't they deserve a day to for contributing to the world? Why do gays get a day? It's not like they were slaves, not allowed to work or vote, had no freedoms. So a few laws were not in their favor, so a few people feel uncomfortable around them, so some religious people see them as siners. It's not like the life of a gay or lesbian has been as hard as Black peoples lives or even Latinos.

Give me a break. We should celebrate things worth wild like Independence Day, Mothers and Fathers Day, New Years, etc. Gay Pride day? Unless It's a paid holiday, i don't see the point except for a day for gays and lesbians to thumb their noses at those who opposed them. Sounds to me more like something that can cause seperation rather than unity. At least Black History Month celebrates the struggles from a race that really had it hard.

It really depends but I agree with you in a way. The problem is not what you think, it's what others think of you. Interesting how when it comes to gays you don't care what others think of you but when it comes to the rest of the world you care what they think of us. Interesting.

Hey, lets not jinx it will ya? :CONGRAT:

Indians.

As long as they aren't Jewish.

[quote]LOL, I don't mind a Gay Pride Day. It bugs me that it's done not because they deserve it but for political reasons. It's like making an ACORN Pride Day. Get my point? As a man, I think I deserve a day more than gay people do. As a man, I am responsible for making sure our race, the human race, lives on. Even in a Lesbian relationship a man is needed to conceive, even if not physically.[quote]

Who knows if it was for political reasons or not, Charles; although, I'm sure you're privy to what goes on deep inside Obama's mind. ;~P I will agree that it comes off as weird that the president declared it, but then again I guess it's no different than the various ____ Day's or ______ History month's. Frankly, people who want to celebrate will celebrate and everyone else will go about their daily business without so much as a harumph. Anyone who truly gives a shit about these days and causes some big ruckus over them is being petulant, in my opinion.

Like I said - have a Man day; I don't freaking care. Oh, and it's interesting that you say you don't mind it, yet you make comments that sound like you're annoyed by it. Intersting. ( )

So they don't get the same rights as a certain select group because of who they are? Hmm...yeah, not going there. Charles, bluntly, you're not in a positionto judge that -- you're not gay. I think you're being rather ignorant, frankly.

Yo Charles, we do celebrate them; where have you been?

You are just way too colored by the BS that is spewed, my friend. The only way that separation will happen is for those who wish it to be (pro or anti-homosexual), work toward it and the ignorant stay docile and apathetic. I'm suddenly reminded of the saying, "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything." I see too many people falling for BS; it's unfortunate.

Eh, not really. I mean when you look at it: What constitutes the parts of a close bond? Knowledge, understanding, comfort, a connection, and/or a desire to hangout?

Mm, I am concerned of how others view me because of the need to present myself in various ways (e.g. as a profesional, student, etc.), but when it comes to same sex marriage, it's because I confidently know deep down that it is right (according to my belief system). I have a thing about injustices.

As per the world - we've been over that; It comes down to prudence and common sense pretty much.

~AJ

As I said, I dont mind making it a day for good reasons, but for political reasons, just to earn votes (and don't say you dont know that because we all know that)? That's rather insulting and shameful if you ask me.

So if I am not gay, why am I being forced to accept something I dont understand? Keep in mind, I have no issues with gays. I have a friend or 2 myself. So does my wife. The only difference between a gay guy and me is he likes men more than women or men only. Otherwise we both got dicks, can both pee standing or sitting and still need women to have children even if its thru adoption. It's interesting you think I am not in a position to judge anyone because I am not gay but don't people get put in juries to judge other people in crimes they may have never had any experience in? Do thieves judge thieves in court? Do child molesters judge child molesters? Most gay people claim they have been gay all their lives, how can they judge me if they have never been straight? I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty AJ, I don't fear some kind of gay retaliation because those who feel the need to use violence, insults, attempts to ruin peoples lives and such in situations that don't merit that kind of behavior will do so. I stand up for what I believe in, be gay all you want, that's your life. wanna get married? Let God judge you then. Want a holiday for you, you'll have to get approval, plain and simple.

I'm curious AJ, are you gay? Otherwise I would have to say your comments are just as ignorant as mine. You are speaking on behalf of gays as if you understand them but just as you pointed out to me that I am not gay so I am not in a position to judge and am ignorant, unless you are gay that makes you ignorant as well by your own words. Am I wrong?

Duh! My point. Don't tell me you didn't get that?

Lots of people do fall for a lot of BS, I don't believe what I believe in due to someone else feeding me stuff. I believe what I believe in because that is what I believe in. I say it again, I have no beef with gays, none. Wouldn't mind a couple of Lesbians for my birthday to be honest. But as I said before, doing something for political sakes is not something done right. Gays should not be celebrating something because someone gave it to them as a political favor. they should get it because they deserve it and they earned it and it's something the majority would like to have. That's like going up in a job because the boss is family, a friend of the family or because he likes you and not for your skills.

Gays have fought long and hard (don't misunderstand please) to be accepted but they have failed in one thing. They have failed to accept that there will be people who won't accept them. An "I don't care" attitude is not the kind of attitude deserving of a holiday or pride day. Black people didn't get a Black History Month because they had an "I dont care" attitude. They got it because they cared because they wanted to be equals, because they wanted to simply be; not for pride days and stuff. For crying out loud people wanted to make an Obama day, as if every other President before him had one. Obama is just a man, the only diffenece is that he is Black, but he is as a much a corrupt politician as any other.

You can say not really but it still stands that if people see you with gay people they will assume you are gay and am sure you will not simply say think what you want.

Agreed.

Still you are more concerned with those far away and less concerned with those close by. That's a strange way to see things. I care more about those around me, I could care less about those far from me unless I know them. Prudence and common sense are not attributes of a politician, unless you have been missing the last 5 years (just for starters) including this one.

Have you ever seen Star Trek The Next Generation AJ? I have seen in that show that even though mankind tries to be the better person in every situation to meet new species, often putting their own lives at risk in doing so, the risk is always met with caution, fear and distrust because while they are trying to show they have no need for striking first or coming off as superior, they know that the other person may not be as willing to risk their lives and might be more willing to take freindship as a weakness. I believe we can make friends with those wanting to be our friends so long as we have common goals, but those who don't how can we associate ourselves with them if we have to accpet things such as inhumane treatment, inconsiderate actions towards other nations and the belief that their religion, Gov't or both is superior to all and should be supreme? We may not be the poster boy for common sense, prudence, humility and justice; but I see us being closer to that than any other nation. That's just my opinion.

Read the context Infidel.  Who are we talking about?

Next time...keep up will ya? 

At one point I considered myself gay and was in several relationships with guys, but after a while I came to realize that I'm actually bisexual. And yes, I have actually bore the brunt of negative actions on the part of others who...shall we say...didn't think fondly of me.

Majority as in the majority of homosexuals? Or the American population? If it's the latter, I would have to disagree because I need only look back to the civil rights movement and the fact that "the majority" didn't want blacks to be treated equally, or for segregation to be changed.

You know, I can agree that the mainstream movement - i.e. the ones that people claim are "THE" movement and such, have indeed failed. In fact, I am currently brainstorming and researching an essay about how I believe the SSM/Homosexuality equality movement can change its tactics toward non-violence. (I've been reading Martin Luther King's and Ghandi's autobiographies - they is such an amazing and brilliant man) I believe that non-violence and other non-aggressive means could finally get things so that homosexuals are granted equal rights.

Yes I have actually; I'm a total ST nerd. I actually totally get what you're saying and am actually stating a variation of the same thing. As for being associated with countries who are inhumane -- charles -- everyone is associated with everyone in this glogalized world. You cannot not be connected to countries like Venezuela, Iran, etc. Mass media prevents that. Even if a government issues some ban, there are ways around it. Like the saying goes, if there is a will, there will be a way and it will be done.

Mmm, I don't know. I feel like we've lost our way/wandered from our path; this is a feeling that has grown since I finished reading a couple books.

I've always been a global and others first person, ever since I can remember. That doesn't mean I don't care about those close around me -- I love my family and friends to death. But, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, I've just always been the type that thinks...world wide, so to speak. In fact, I'm considering going into volunteer work. *shrugs* Anyways, it's unfortunate that politicians are not like that. I believe that prudence, common sense, plus a few other things are just what is needed in those who run a nation. I would say that we're in a dilemma because we're giving power to those who crave it, and as the saying goes: "Power is best in the hands of those who do not want it." (Or however it goes)

Well frankly, in my opinion, if people are going to judge me based off of what they see and not get to know me - then forget them. *shrugs* Yeah, I did point out looking professional, but that's another topic another time.

Mmm, there should have been a  ;~p after what I said as it was pure jest.

Simply put, to establish equal rights for a group of peple who clearly don't have that - does not mean that you have to accept it. I and others have provided points where our nation can makes sure that homosexuals are treated fairly/equaly and everyone could be happy.

I think you're confusing the noise of the more radical bunch with the basic desire of the majority of homosexuals. Most just want to live their lives, they don't want any of the crap that people throw at them.

As for my comment about not being in position to judge - I'm simply talking about the fact that, you're not gay, and haven't had to live the life of someone who is gay and has been disrespected, harrassed, assaulted, and so on so forth. That is the point I'm making - you've never had to know that your wish to marry the one person you are comitted to can never happen, because of who and what you are.

I was giving you a bad time, 'kay? Sort of a mimic/poke at what you said to me earlier.

~AJ

And if I were heterophobic I could interpret that as saying that heterosexual sex is a sin (as opposed to stealing another's wife).

Either way, King David is gay, if not necessarily exclusively.

But would your husband say that he loves that man more than he loves women or you?

Would it even occur to him to compare those two different kinds of love on a single scale?

Homosexuals are being persecuted in many parts of the world. We need a Pride Day to show that we are different from those other parts of the world.

And if those countries would condemn Barbie dolls and start killing people for owning them, I would buy one.

It's called chutzpah.

Oh, brother!

Well then I can see how you can relate to the issue, still just because I am not gay or have never been gay does not make my opinions less valuable. Otherwise why would my vote count at all if I have little if any experience in politics? Why should I care or have an opinion about healthcare reform, infrastructure contsruction, wars and taxes if I have no medical degree or experience, am not a construction worker, have never been in the US Armed Forces and suck when it comes to my own finances? It seems unfair that you would deny me my opinion on any subject that is directly or indirectly part of my life and affects it in some way.

True, but in the end it was a majority that allowed this to go thru. Lets remember that majority is not always counting evrey individual American (I have learned that in the last 8 months), majority is also those in Congress and the Senate. The Civil Rights Movement was one of those things that fought against things that really went against what this country stood for. How could we have freedom and equality if we had slaves (during times we had slaves) and people who were not treated as equals under the law? Are you suggesting that gays are somehow being treated the same way Blacks were? I can see some problems but not to the extent of what Black people had to suffer.

They say respect is something that is earned not given. My take from what gay people do to get what they want is that they believe they deserve respect and should get it regardless of who or how they are. As you can see from previous post, I have no beef with gays for being gay. I have a beef with being forced to do something just because they want it as oppose to me wanting to do something because they earned it.

Imagine if teenagers in the US decided that it was unfair that they had to wait till they were 21 to legally purchase and drink alcohol and chose to do something about it because most countries around the world average 18 as the legal age to pruchase and drink alcohol and the US seems to be the only one (from what I could find) to be at 21 for legal puechasing and drinking age in most states. This considering Jewish people believe men come of age at 16 and 18 basically makes most teens adults and responsible for their own actions. Do you think we should just give them the ability to purchase and drink at a younger age just because they asked for it? Just because they believe it's unfair?

Sorry, I forgot to add it, thats what I get for being in a rush. Here it is, I like this one better.

I know, I know.

this leads me to ask you a question Leauki.  I haven't asked you before.  Are you gay? 

There's nothing in scripture that shows that David is gay.  Nothing.  He was a man after God's own heart afterall. He definitely had a thing for women and you know his son did as well having more than 1,000 wives.    Are you going to say that God is gay now as well? 

It's a rare thing but there is such a thing as a deep loving relationship had between two men that has nothing to do with any sort of sexual nature.  Usually it's born out of some sort of circumstances that unites them and brings them closer than even brothers.  You hear about this during war times or tragedies especially.  That's the bond Jonathan and Davd had.  Their common enemy was Saul, Jonathan's own father. 

my sentiments exactly. 

you mean sort of like buying a "bible" because in certain parts of the world, anyone caught with one meets instant death.   So how many bibles do you own? 

No. In fact I am slightly homophobic and probably wouldn't join a synagogue that allows homosexual marriage.

But I honestly don't care if other people are gay and whether they get "married" or what they do in their homes. I certainly don't judge them or condemn them. I have better things to do and if I want to make the world a better place there are better subjects on which to focus.

For example, I do not keep kosher. I don't eat forbidden foods, but I do not follow kashruth. If I were really worried about doing G-d's will, I'd start to keep kosher rather than worry about whether homosexuality is immoral or not.

Why? Do I come off as gay?

You are using the argument that David was  a good person as proof that he wasn't gay. But it doesn't work that way. The Bible only tells us that David was a good person, despite his failings.

To me the text is pretty clear about David loving a man more than any woman. If that's not gay I don't know what is.

That doesn't mean that I have a problem with David or his bisexuality. It just means that homosexuality does not stand in the way of greatness.

Yes, exactly.

I own as many Christian Bibles as are necessary to be executed in certain countries.

I try to be and do everything hateful people hate. It's part of my personality.

That is somewhat of a flawed idea because doesn't every individual deserve some basic level of respect? After that, sure, how much someone respects them depends upon their actions. Still though, do you automatically disrespect a stranger simply because they haven't earned it? Just as many diehard anti-ssm people have claimed that they're not being respect, so are homosexuals not being respected either.

Welcome to the real world Charles, we adults have to do things we don't always want to do. *shrugs* At its most basic level....setting aside the fringe....granting basic marriage rights (and subsequent rights/priviliges) is not forcing anything onto you. It's just a completely flawed premise to think that anything would be forced upon anyone. It's paranoia and stupid fear.

Besides, didn't out nation fight against religious based rule? (Anglican church anyone? Huguenots fleeing france?)

Grr, why won't we take a leaf out of Canada's book? Geesh, they pretty much settled the entire issue.

That's a flawed analogy because teenagers are not adults, they have no legal status (can't give consent generally, etc.) and are under their parents rule until they reach majority age. I'm not saying anything about teenage homosexuals -- this issue is for those individuals who are at least 18, and therefore supposed to be granted full franchise/rights. If you're homosexual, this isn't so.

They did so kicking and screaming - a vast majority of people didn't agree with it.

That may be so, but remember it takes a majority to deem something "right." That's one of the basic thing in our democracy: the majority rules.

Let me ask you this -- how can we have freedom and equality, and call ourselves a nation where everyone is treated equally under the law, can pursue life, liberty, happiness, etc. -- when clearly that isn't so. I hear a lot of people claim that homosexuals do have the same rights, but they're full of it because when it comes down to the principle of the matter - they're don't.

Heck, personally, I'm all for allowing a law to let a heterosexual man or woman marry someone of the same sex, if that is what will garner homosexuals the right to marry and subsequent entitlements that come with it. (I think it's ironic though that a straight individual would want to marry someone of the same sex....but, whatever, to each their own.)

By no means do I intend to imply that the CRM was less of struggle than this movement; it was a huge struggle. But, this movementt, in my opinion at least, is based on very very similar principles. It's why I think it should move to non-violence as its means/action. I think that would bring the results of rights about much faster.

Not denying your opinion; I can't exactly keep you from speaking and I wouldn't want to. What I am saying though is that you, as a straight male just have never been in their shoes. You can try to empathize all you want, but it just is not the same as being the person, or whatever.

Here's an attempt at an analogy: Say my mother died; now obviously, I would be stricken with grief because - well - she's my mum and I love her to death. You can say, and I would agree that you do empathize, that you feel sorry for me and that you can understan where I'm at. But, but...you only empathize to the extent that your experience and understanding lets you (primarily the former).

See? Am I'm not explaining it clearly?

Yes?

Nope, actually it would be: "Oh, man!" >_< Haha, sorry, I couldn't resist.

~AJ

I would feel the same way and actually do when it comes from the Christian perspective. 

I feel pretty much the same with the exception of making laws condoning certain behaviors. 

no, not especially... just quick to excuse it and condone it.  If you think you're an underdog or politically incorrect, I guess I've got you beat here. 

No, I'm not saying that.  David was a sinner.  There is NONE good.  His greatest sin started with adultery; a sexual liason with a woman and ended with murder but he had other faults as well.  There's nothing in scripture to even hint that this happened with Jonathan.  They loved each other like brothers; more so. 

If you wish, I could really get into expositing that scripture you gave me and show you exactly what the whole thing meant. 

why can't a man love another man without sex being involved?  I love other woman.  I see David as a very sensitive soul, but he was also a mighty warrior.  So he wasn't afraid to show his emotional poetic side alongside his masculine Kingly side.  David loved Bathsheba more than he did Jonathan.  He also loved Abigail. 

hang onto them, they might come in handy some day.  :) 

so you want to be the underdog? 

For me this is not about faith but simply about my being fairly conservative. I know very religious people who are gay.

Gay marriage does not condone anything, it just organises it.

I don't want homosexuals to meander from one "relationship" to another.

David and Jonathan loved each other so much, they entered a covenant with each other. Whatever G-d's opinion was of David, He did never condemn Him for that.

I have been through it.

Men cannot commit adultery, only women can. So I guess we can forget about David commiting adultery as a sin.

He loved a man more than he loved a woman. If it had been two different types of love, I am sure that could have been pointed it. As it is, the text looks like a polite description of David's homosexuality.

You love other women. That's good. But do you love them more than your husband? Do you enjoy their company more than you enjoy your husband's?

I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.

There more underdogs there are, the fewer underdogs there will be.

There is this story about the Nazis invading Denmark and making it law that all Danish Jews should wear a Star of David on their cloths. The story tells how most Danish including the king wore those stars. The story is not true.

But it would have worked if everyone had done it.

Again, respect is earned not given. You can get the benefit of the doubt, that does not mean I trust or respect you. But I see what you mean.