Queen of Thorns

What's the secret?

from Demigod Forums

I've tried multiple builds for this character and have yet to see a worthwhile strategy.

Attack spells become quickly outmatched with +health items and the short range on them begs me to get close to an enemy that is infinitely more dangerous than I am. Bramble Shield helps in this situation, but I'm forced to switch forms to use it, which leaves me at a complete disadvantage for the 2-3 seconds that takes. I can cast it before I go in, but I will most often need to use it as soon as I get into battle. If I want to do damage with spells, I'm sacrificing the ability to cast this, the bonus splash damage, or I can miss a great oppurtunity to save an ally, which is apparently what Bramble Shield was made for considering how many players are so eager to get themselves killed. Uproot is also to niche, to specific, to be worth getting and is useful for only one situation - that skillpoint is better spent elsewhere.

Minions by themselves are easily killed and almost rely on the buffs from the different pieces of armor. But, I need money and money obviously comes from killing heroes (which is practically impossible unless I'm playing a noob or get the lucky final hit), killing creatures, which is about the only useful thing my spells are good for, or waiting the money out. Meanwhile, other, more damaging characters are raking in more beneficial hero kills and the benefits that provides, and outbuffing me into obscurity.

So basically, my weaknesses far exceed my strengths. I need a ton of mana, but if I want to survive, I will need a ton of health. If I want to buff my minions, I have to sacrifice potentially better items to do that. All of this taken into consideration, if I want money to do those things, I need to find a way to kill players and there doesn't seem to be a way to effectively do that since I'm forced to focus on one particular aspect of my character. Either I can do damage with spells that will quickly be outmatched by +health, or I can focus on the minions that die to quickly and need the items that my non-existant gold income would provide. If I want to do all of these things, I again, need a ton of mana, which forces to to forego the benefits of certain items (such as +health, armor, and bonus self or minion damage) to raise my mana as high as possible.

In short, this character is just to much micromanagement and relies to much on the gold I can't get quick enough to be a threat. So tell me, what is the secret?

66,208 views 35 replies
Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

Patience... It takes a lot of patience to play Queen imho.

Lately I've been playing with Cloak of the night with my favor. Picking up only Bramble Shield, Ground Spikes and Spike Wave as my abilities.

I start out buying Banded armor and Scaled Helm and then I'll buy Unbreakable Boots at first store visit.

After that I work on buying my minions. (L4 minions if you can afford them)

 

As far as gameplay, i devote mostly all of my early gametime to keeping the DG that i share my lane with bubbled (perma bubbled that is) With Cloak of the Night and Scaled Helm I have all the mana i need in the early game. And I'll use my auto attack on whoever my partner is attacking.

 

I'm not gonna go too much further into gameplay mostly b/c i don't really feel like typing, but it take patience and knowing when to bubble and when to come out of your flower and be aggressive.  She's a really solid support character and once you get Spike Wave you can generate a great deal of offense as well.

There isn't much 'reward' from playing queen (like HUGE KILLS) but she helps out an offense heavy DG very well.

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

I disagree that QoT is terrible. Ok so QoT can have a hard time against some of the other demigods 1v1 (as can reg, and TB) however, her strength lies in large engagements. Large AoE which reduces armor can very quickly turn the tide in a 4v4 battle, and her shield has kept me and other teammates alive alot of times when we all should have died (especially from damn snipe/spit). I have also managed to score a significant number of kills with this demigod due to the "its only QoT, i can take her solo" attitude of PUG players. Further, when playing QoT i usually outlevel the opposition due to the amazing farming capacity of ground spikes.

However, i do find that QoT runs out of mana VERY quickly in the lower lvls due to the very severe cost of her spells and this can mean problems for those not micromanaging their mana pool. I also think that the prolonged period of down time during which QoT changes state could be reduced, as it is an unnecessarily liability for a character which does not have alot of natural speed or health.

The biggest problem i have found with QoT though is related to other ppls gameplay decisions (especially in 2v2 and 3v3), i find alot of people expect me to be a personal sheild generator for them and are quick with abuse when they die because "i havent been doing my job properly". This then often then turns the tide of the battle, as a few quick deaths from people expecting their sheild gives the other team a steamrolling capacity.

*Note i find i have a similar problem when playing sedna.

As for gold, this is usually not an issue for me, as i find that i can farm creeps at an incredible rate and my shield, idols (i dont get shamblers) and ranged attack give me enough staying power to hold a lane. Purchasing scaled helm the first time i return for mana provides enough mana to allow you to farm a good 4-5 waves of creeps and providing 3-4 levels and plenty of gold.

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

I don't think she was designed to be a brawler and I therefore simply do not use her as such. Her strengths lie more in support and pushing then in DG killing. She causes trouble for the enemy team not in killing their team mates but in keeping her own team mates alive, large AoE armour reduction and tower downing.

That, for me, is her secret. You're simply forcing her to fill a role she wasn't designed for.

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

As of late I've ran into more and more QoTs and they have been increasingly annoying. The fact they can spam 1700 hp shields on 3 people at a time, and keep casting it every 5 seconds it seems, it is basically impossible to hurt the enemy. QoT + Lord Eb = Impossible to beat, even with 3vs2... I had a Sedna with an Oak and couldn't do jack to them, not even dent them and had to retreat quite often.

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

Played another game just now trying to focus primarily on my minions, getting items and such to raise their health and damage, but by the time I had 2 items that raised my minion health/damage by some miniscule amount, the Erebus on the other team was so beefed up by killing other players, it was just pointless to continue trying to make them viable, and at that point, the game was pretty much over. There is only so much I can do, and getting the items to strengthen my minions is totally neglecting the mana I need, and my team needs, to survive.

I notice a trend when I play these games - most of them end up having at least one erebus and regulas. Those characters are just so disgustingly awesome, I can understand why everyone likes playing them.

Again, neglecting mana makes it difficult for this character to succeed. But on the other hand, neglecting health makes her such an easy target. The mana for QoT's spells needs to be reduced by a ton if she will ever be useful.

On that note, this is what I think needs to change:

Minions need to add some kind of passive bonus to her damage spells. When her minions become useless in a fight, it will at least make her damage spells more viable. She already sacrifices them for health, she should be able to get something else out of it.

As mentioned above, her spells need to cost considerably less mana. Then she would no longer be so reliant on it and can also focus on raising her health and armor with items, as well.

At least one damage spell needs to have a large range similar to Regulus' arrow. This might just be wishful thinking, but the fact that he can shoot an arrow across the map and a caster can't do something similar is just ridiculous.

Change Uproot to also damage players, maybe to a lesser effect - or let it be an area of effect spell similar to the Torchbearer's flame circle. Having it as a "tower only" spell is clearly retarded, since no one worries about towers, nor are they so incredibly difficult to take down that there needs to be a spell for it.

 

With these changes, minions would be viable, she wouldn't have to spend so much money trying to increase her mana and could also focus on health and armor, her "arrow" spell would give her a chance at killing a flee'ing enemy and Uproot wouldn't be such a stupid spell.

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

Funny, I find QOT is my go to DG when I want to win a game (as opposed to Rook when I want to have fun and lose).  Start with priests and any sort of mana bonus favor item.  Next up get archers.  Now you have 4 minions plus maybe a shambler if you want, dishing out ranged damage.  And NOBODY pays attention to minion damage, they see you running around and get all confused as to why their HP is dropping.  Use your minions and area effect ranged attack, don't waste mana doing creep kills until you have somthing worthwhile like enemy priest or a tower you are going to kill.  Level 3/4 archers will tear up towers rather quickly.   Run away from anyone charging you early on and snipe them under cover of a tower. 

The key to the Queen is running and farming creeps.  You don't kill DG's, but you will help ensure your teammates kill them or at least don't die.  Stay with your creep waves (which I often upgrade with my excess gold, I get few items), and you can suddenly have 5-10 buddies on your side when some UB comes at you.  Between my Bishops, shield and varius minions/shamblers/creeps I've killed a number of UB that thought I was "alone."  But mostly you just push the creeps and protect.  Farming the middle in Cataract works well, just surge out as the creeps come out and draw a big group to you and then chew them up at your leisure.

Its all in the excellent guides people have written already.

 

Ren

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting SyDaemon, reply 4
I don't think she was designed to be a brawler and I therefore simply do not use her as such. Her strengths lie more in support and pushing then in DG killing. She causes trouble for the enemy team not in killing their team mates but in keeping her own team mates alive, large AoE armour reduction and tower downing.

That, for me, is her secret. You're simply forcing her to fill a role she wasn't designed for.

Why sacrifice a player spot for a character that can't do anything but support other teammates? Have you noticed that very few people play her? I'd wager it's because she sucks and no one wants to sit back and be the "support". If you wanted to do that, then why not play Sedna? At least she doesn't have to worry about her mana as much and doesn't have to switch forms constantly.

QoT is obviously made the way she is so she can perform a variety of tasks. She has damage spells, she has support spells, and she has minions. She should be able to excel in at least one area if given the desire to do so.

And don't even try to defend Uproot - towers are as threatening as a baby. Pushing towers won't win the game, killing players and gaining money will.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

Actually, I did a build focussing on uproot. It's great to smash defenses early in the game. And pushing actually does win the game.

The thing is, QoT simply sucks at killing other demigods so you simply have to play her differently.

Try this guide to get some ideas: Queen of Thorns - Uprooting the world

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

Facts:

  1. There is not a single QoT in the ESL 2vs2 or 3vs3 ladders and I'm the only QoT in the 1vs1 ladder.
  2. She's also by far the least played Demigod.
  3. She gets, on average, the least favor points in each game.

 

How can anyone claim that she's overpowered (like so many idiots, who never actually played her, do)?

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

Someone uses consume dshambler?? Its quite sick. Heals you 2250 hp and damages eneies 750 all 5 secs.

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

QoT is not useless and can be an effective Assasin DG aswell as support.

My build atm (being very a selfish build) is to open with ground spikes and then get Brambles and Sacrafice.

Come level 5-6+ I become very hard to kill and when i recieve rank 2 of sacrafice I can beat/outheal sedna and batter a UB.

I can easily get away from two demigods. And thats without using shield. 

Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Kaduos, reply 6
Played another game just now trying to focus primarily on my minions, getting items and such to raise their health and damage, but by the time I had 2 items that raised my minion health/damage by some miniscule amount, the Erebus on the other team was so beefed up by killing other players, it was just pointless to continue trying to make them viable, and at that point, the game was pretty much over. There is only so much I can do, and getting the items to strengthen my minions is totally neglecting the mana I need, and my team needs, to survive.

I notice a trend when I play these games - most of them end up having at least one erebus and regulas. Those characters are just so disgustingly awesome, I can understand why everyone likes playing them.

Again, neglecting mana makes it difficult for this character to succeed. But on the other hand, neglecting health makes her such an easy target. The mana for QoT's spells needs to be reduced by a ton if she will ever be useful.

On that note, this is what I think needs to change:

Minions need to add some kind of passive bonus to her damage spells. When her minions become useless in a fight, it will at least make her damage spells more viable. She already sacrifices them for health, she should be able to get something else out of it.

As mentioned above, her spells need to cost considerably less mana. Then she would no longer be so reliant on it and can also focus on raising her health and armor with items, as well.

At least one damage spell needs to have a large range similar to Regulus' arrow. This might just be wishful thinking, but the fact that he can shoot an arrow across the map and a caster can't do something similar is just ridiculous.

Change Uproot to also damage players, maybe to a lesser effect - or let it be an area of effect spell similar to the Torchbearer's flame circle. Having it as a "tower only" spell is clearly retarded, since no one worries about towers, nor are they so incredibly difficult to take down that there needs to be a spell for it.

 

With these changes, minions would be viable, she wouldn't have to spend so much money trying to increase her mana and could also focus on health and armor, her "arrow" spell would give her a chance at killing a flee'ing enemy and Uproot wouldn't be such a stupid spell.

 

I feel the problem with this gameplay is focusing TOO heavily on minions and minion based items.  They are a GREAT commodity, however minion gameplay with queen isn't utilizing her best strenghts.  In the early/mid/late game she NEEDS mana and mana boosting items.  My ideal queen item selection is Scaled Helm+Banded armor first, Then Unbreakable Boots, Then Vlemish (OR Plenor depending on current gold).  Bramble Shield is (in my opinion) the best preventative ability in the game... well after L3 sedna heals. 

I think a good queen knows when to shield her allies, when to sheild herself, when a fight is insurmountable (when to run), and when/how to push a creep lane. I don't normally take uproot but I'll substitute it for spike wave if i realize that it's more important to push a lane than help pound on DGs (in that case i'll take Spike Wave later in the game around L12ish)

She's definitely NOT a frontline figher but she is a frontline fighters best friend in big fights.  With that said, I never choose Queen unless I know i'll be playing backup dancer to a heavier hitting DG.  Queen+Rook melt towers away.  Queen+High Burst Damage Scare away even the best coordinated DGs from time to time. 

Final summation... She's primarily a support class character... use her as such.

P.S. Upgrade your minons... (their strength and armor too)

Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top

Queen is lacking in many areas.

 

however...

 

Bramble Shield and Ground Spikes are both excellent skills and a Queen played to emphasize supporting a partner with Shield while knocking down towers with Ground Spikes + Minions can be very effective for her team.

 

 

Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top

QoT just plays very differently compared to any other DG. I play her using an AoE attack build and can devestate towers with just a single wave of my creeps at lvl 2. At lvls beyond 10-15 she starts to lose her edge however.

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Aroddo, reply 9
Actually, I did a build focussing on uproot. It's great to smash defenses early in the game. And pushing actually does win the game.

The thing is, QoT simply sucks at killing other demigods so you simply have to play her differently.

Try this guide to get some ideas: Queen of Thorns - Uprooting the world

Ok, so you push towers in the early game, what then? You spend all your skill points raising an ability, and Compost as well probably, that is no longer useful in the late game. When all the towers are gone, it'll come down to which team can kill late game heroes first and it most certainly won't be you.

You may have won that game, but the fact of the matter is that a win will not come from that type of victory often. More often than not, a team will get destroyed by a few buffed heroes working together, or maybe alone - who knows.

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Strongstar, reply 13
I feel the problem with this gameplay is focusing TOO heavily on minions and minion based items.  They are a GREAT commodity, however minion gameplay with queen isn't utilizing her best strenghts.  In the early/mid/late game she NEEDS mana and mana boosting items.  My ideal queen item selection is Scaled Helm+Banded armor first, Then Unbreakable Boots, Then Vlemish (OR Plenor depending on current gold).  Bramble Shield is (in my opinion) the best preventative ability in the game... well after L3 sedna heals.

She's a general and her best strengths are apparently her support abilities (ie, bramble shield, which is located in her closed, minion form) and her Uproot ability (which is worthless). These are her strengths as outlined at the DG selection screen. Many of her skills have something to do with minions though, so how can this not be a "strength"? Bramble Shield *is* awesome, but let's face it - if you're planning to use that ability, and use it often, how many times are you going to be in open form? Doing what all that hard earned mana is providing for you? If you're going to do a Bramble Shield build, you're going to HAVE to pick some other skills, instead of minions obviously, so that leaves Wave and Spikes.

If all you're going to do is Bramble Shield, than they should have just saved some time and the decision making process by just removing all of her (worthless) abilities, leaving 4 or 5 levels of Bramble Shield and 20 levels of flowers, hugs, and hearts.

I think a good queen knows when to shield her allies, when to sheild herself, when a fight is insurmountable (when to run), and when/how to push a creep lane. I don't normally take uproot but I'll substitute it for spike wave if i realize that it's more important to push a lane than help pound on DGs (in that case i'll take Spike Wave later in the game around L12ish)

She's definitely NOT a frontline figher but she is a frontline fighters best friend in big fights.  With that said, I never choose Queen unless I know i'll be playing backup dancer to a heavier hitting DG.  Queen+Rook melt towers away.  Queen+High Burst Damage Scare away even the best coordinated DGs from time to time. 

Final summation... She's primarily a support class character... use her as such.

P.S. Upgrade your minons... (their strength and armor too)

You're just being silly. Of course a good queen will know when to shield, because anyone who spends the time playing her will quickly realize how horrible everything else she has really is. That's not solving the problem though, it's just making excuses for what she should be doing instead of what she could be doing, when the truth is that she should be good at more than just that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Generals are supposed to be great at controlling creatures - right? Half her abilities focus on her minions, right? Something is not right here.

And yes, she isn't a frontline fighter and I'm not asking her to be, nor did I ever expect her to be as such. But she does have spells, so she should be able to perform in that area just as good as the Torchbearer.

Queen+High Burst damage? What are you smoking?

Spikes and Wave will do 1275, together, at max level. A single max level Fireball will do 1050 and will cost half as much mana. If you want to throw Mulch in there, you can *maybe* get an extra 750 damage in there, but you have to switch forms to do that, which is 2-3 seconds you aren't doing anything. With that, they may be running away, or hell - they may still be there shrugging it off. What is 1000 health in the late game? Most DG's have 4000 before I hit level 4 and that's because they don't have to worry about mana nearly as much as the Queen does and can spend that well earned money on survivability.

P.S. Didn't you just tell me to not focus on the minions so much?

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

Im not contributing to this flame war as so much just to say that She needs a Buff imo... :S

 

her Uproot needs retooled for mana/ effectiveness, and her abilites need to be switched around to maximize usage (switching shamblers to her outside form, as a BAD example). Hell id say retool all her abilities with the dmg/mana.

 

With that being said, is there a thread on this chick that talks about buffing her? If not, I would like the (dis)honor of creating the starting point. (as I see theres not much in honning in on fixing her as it seems)

Reply #20 from Demigod Forums Top

So while I'm hoarding my non-existant income for mana items, health items, minion items and other assorted junk I may or may not need, I should also spend my money upgrading global minions?

Reply #21 from Demigod Forums Top

Why sacrifice a player spot for a character that can't do anything but support other teammates? Have you noticed that very few people play her? I'd wager it's because she sucks and no one wants to sit back and be the "support". If you wanted to do that, then why not play Sedna? At least she doesn't have to worry about her mana as much and doesn't have to switch forms constantly.

QoT is obviously made the way she is so she can perform a variety of tasks. She has damage spells, she has support spells, and she has minions. She should be able to excel in at least one area if given the desire to do so.

 

And don't even try to defend Uproot - towers are as threatening as a baby. Pushing towers won't win the game, killing players and gaining money will.

 

I did not say she can't do anything but support other team mates. She's an excellent pusher and her team is very much more effective when she's around to shield allies and spike enemies. That's hardly considered a waste of a player slot.

 

Yes, I have noticed that few people play her. My wager is that most players prefer to go for the gratification of killing enemy Demigods themselves as opposed to pushing down towers and support.

 

Also, pushing towers (to clear the way for reinforcements, no matter how early) DO win you the game. Killing players will only do if it's the Slaughter game mode. Incidentally, downing towers also get you gold if I recall correctly.

Reply #22 from Demigod Forums Top

I was just in a game about an hour ago where we had pushed the entire way to the enemy citadel and had them make a comeback simply because they could kill all of us easier than we could kill them. Killing enemy players also offers the chance and freedom to push towers without hiderance, there doesn't need to be a character designed specifically for that role when killing players is a more effective longterm strategy.

She's a horrible character, forced into one, and only one tactic, despite the fact that she has the beginnings of a more varied play style - and is sadly ineffective in any role besides spamming bramble shield.

 

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Reply #23 from Demigod Forums Top

alot of qot's problem stems from the fact that she isnt used to her full effectiveness without coordination.  IE ppl use her spikes just as dmg alone, and not as a prelude to a focused auto attack by multiple DG's.  When used in this way, with her multiple minions firing down with the reduced armor, dg's die quick.

in pugs, u lack that coordination. 

Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting SyDaemon, reply 21
I did not say she can't do anything but support other team mates. She's an excellent pusher and her team is very much more effective when she's around to shield allies and spike enemies. That's hardly considered a waste of a player slot.

 

Yes, I have noticed that few people play her. My wager is that most players prefer to go for the gratification of killing enemy Demigods themselves as opposed to pushing down towers and support.

 

Also, pushing towers (to clear the way for reinforcements, no matter how early) DO win you the game. Killing players will only do if it's the Slaughter game mode. Incidentally, downing towers also get you gold if I recall correctly.

She's not an "excellent pusher". Ground Spikes doesn't actually increase damage to towers by all that much until you max it out. And by the time that happens, every other demigod can down a tower easily anyway. Erebus's minion swarm is much better at taking down towers than Uproot or Ground Spikes, and Erebus has the added advantage of actually being a threat to enemy demigods.

Not many people play her because she sucks. It's not because people would rather play assassins and kill people, because Sedna, who is also primarily support, gets plenty of playtime. The difference is that Sedna can actually hold her own, and is helpful not only when surrounded by teammates but by herself as well. Having more than two useful abilities helps too.

 

Also, I've noticed that most people who defend QoT don't play her extensively and, more importantly, do not play her in premades against premades. Fancy that.

Reply #25 from Demigod Forums Top

Also, I've noticed that most people who defend QoT don't play her extensively and, more importantly, do not play her in premades against premades. Fancy that.

QFT.

Strongstar is actually the only one who plays her a lot and kind of defends her strength. All others who say that QoT is okay now (or even too strong) don't play her! On the other side, I play QoT exclusively in 1vs1 and also with premades and see her shortcomings very, very clearly (also see Facts in Reply#10).