Vasari weapons discussion.

phase missiles on everything, beams nowhere, waves at tier 4. Is it how it should be?

from Sins Forums

I wanted to add this to Deceiver's thread, but it's a little too big of a subject and won't be cured with a little stat fix. So I decided for another thread, cause I think it is deserved.

The subject is - Vasari weapons and their upgrade research trees.
They problem is - they're messed up.

Here's why:
Look up the research trees and check what ships profit from different weapon platform upgrades.

Advent:

  • Plasma weapons - improve caps, Destra, the Starfish and Starbases. Starts at tier2. Good upgrade.
  • Laser - Fighters (pure damage boost, so it works well against both LRF and bombers), Disciples, Defense vessels and Starbases. Good Upgrade.
  • Beams - Bombers, Illums. Awesome upgrade.
  • Bombing damage - always good to save time on something so unproductive.

TEC:

  • Autocannon - Flak frig, Kodiak, Fighter. Starts at TIER1. Very Good upgrade.
  • Lasers - Starbases, Cobalts, Caps. Ok upgrade.
  • Beams - Caps, Starbases (their main killer). It is an ok upgrade when you have SBs around and it does not prerequire Laser upgrades done.
  • High yield warheads - bombing damage. Always good not to waste another five minutes killing that planet.
  • Rockets - Javelis, Marza, Bombers, Starbases. Must have upgrade.

As you can clearly see, all weapon platforms are worth upgrading. Some more, some a little less, but every kind weapon is carried by some ship that you can use as a major force in your fleet or as a bastion of defense.
In other words, weapons are more or less evenly spread around the ships, so that you have to decide upon one or two weapon types as you decide what fleet you are going to make. All upgrades are viable.

Now, the Vasari:

  • Wave cannons - Upgrade Caps and Enforcers only (and siege frigs' anti ship weapon... don't make me laugh). It would be ok, but... wtf, tier 4? Up to tier 7?! Madness!! I know it's been said already, but it falls into this topic.
  • Phase missiles - Ok... LRFs make this upgrade good. Bombers make this upgrade awesome. Upgrading Orkulus' main killer weapon is a bonus. Upping Vulkoras makes it a little more spicy. Together with upgrading fighters' effectiveness against LRFs and being the best upgrade of all (do the maths) makes it a hands down, win all, no brainer upgrade, regardless of what path to victory you choose.
  • Pulse cannon - Skirmisher, Starbase, Scout and some other junk. Being T1 and T2 makes this a cheap and easy upgrade, useful if you have skirmishers in action (what?!) and any starbase, since it boosts the Orky's main attack cheaply and by quite a lot. An OK upgrade.
  • Pulse Beam - Caps. Stop. What? Caps only? Who the f... makes T3 and T4 research that will increase his CAP SHIP damage (only a part of it!) by 5-20%? Are you making a Kortul Armadah of dhoom? Or maybe you are going for Go Big or Go Home achievement? Either way, in any normal game, this has to be the LAST upgrade in Military tree that I ever think of doing. Oh and it requires all Pulse cannon upgrades? WHAT? USELESS!
  • Planet Bombing... range? By up to 40% with a 3-level research at TIER 6 that requires the whole Pulse Cannon and Beam upgrade line? Is someone nuts out there? It would be cool for Vulkoras to be able to bomb easily without getting into tactical structures early in the game, or maybe for those Tier1 Karrastras to harass more effectively, but not THAT far into military tree and not for such a small bonus (basic range is small. 140% basic is still small).

Conclusion - Vasari weapons are totally messed up.

1. The trees are messed up

  • Planet bombing upgrade - it is too far, too useless and has too many prereqs.
  • Pulse beam upgrades - have a handicapping prerequisite for no good reason (which, along with being T3/4 and no ships using them, makes this upgrade useless).
  • Wave upgrades - are WAAYYYY too far up the tree and could use at least one more user than the HC.

2. The weapon loadout on ships is messed up

  • Nothing uses Wave weapons except Enforcers (it's a marginal weapon on caps). If you're not VERY heavy on enforcers, you won't even THINK about this upgrade.
  • Nothing uses Pulse beams . Only kortul and the EGG use it to some extent... but come on. Even TEC beams are at least a powerful weapon on Argonev. Pulse beams don't exist. It makes this upgrade totally useless.
  • Phase missiles are OVERused. LRFs, ok. Bombers, OK. Starbases, fine. Fighters? Flaks? Turrets? ALL caps? Overkill.

Solutions

Okay, so here is where you come in. As I wrote, I intended to post it in Deceiver's thread. However, the subject was too big in my opinion and didn't fit the "simple balance stat changes" idea.

So post up, just as you would in Deceiver's thread on stat changes.
edit. Please also state in your post if you think this issue needs attention.
For example in a 5 point scale, 0 being "no you fool" and 5 being "yes, I would SERIOUSLY like this corrected, cause now it's fouled up".

Something like:

attention needed level 4 - I would like this fixed as soon as the other balance changes are handled

1. Trees
Planet bombing - <your idea, or yay for someone else's idea, or just say you think it's okay>
...
2. Weapon loadout
Wave cannon - <say you think it's fine or suggest some ship that should have waves instead of what it does now>
...

Please throw your two cents below on whether you think the Vasari weapons tree is messed up or not.
I think it is.
I want to balance the tree out. Or at least, figure out a way to do it, with your help. I will be updating this post like Deceiver does once there are a few ideas posted.
Maybe one of the Frasers takes a look at this thread and decide to use some of the suggestions.

I don't want a buff everywhere, mind you. I know you are all aware that I'm almost an exclusive Vasari player, but this seriously isn't about buffing them.
What else could a Vasari player want from his weapons tree than to have the best weapon in the game on all his ships? Surely, having Phase missiles on everything that shoots is a nice status quo. But let's face it, it's fouled up. Either eliminate Pulse beam and Wave cannons or spread out the weapons to other ships.

So, post up please. That's what forums are about, aren't they.

100,627 views 51 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

My idea is:

Wave: Keep the tech level. Instead, increase the percent bonus per level to 10% or so. (Give me some more faction diversity, pls.)

Pulse: Keep pre-req and increase percent bonus like Wave OR increase bombing damage as well. (Something new to tie in to the next tech.)

Planet Bombing level: Double range bonus.

Change the Orky final weapon upgrade into a pulse beam add-on. (Yes, that'd require an engine change, but would be so much better for it.)

Buff the wave cannon on the Karrastra. (Make them not so extemely specialized, heresy I know.)

Change the Sentinel to either wave or pulse. Maybe fighters, too. (Main targets are unshielded, after all.)

 

Edit: First! ;P

 

:fox:

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

I'll post too.

My fix priority would be 3/4 - Not really the first thing that should be done, but it should be done. I know nobody mentioned that too much before, but it's because nobody really cares about the fireworks when all you need is phase missiles. I, however, think that it is plain wrong that two races are done well and the third has
-one obsolete weapon type,
-one tied to only one ship and insanely high up the tree,
-one hardly useful at all and
-one that is a must have.

I truly believe IC wants to make this game as polished as possible. Well, I want to help.

1. The trees.

  • Planet bombing upgrade - Either make this a serious boost, so it really makes for a deadly surprise (like 30-60-90% increase) or change it to reduced cooldown or flat damage increase. And please break the prerequisite between pulse cannons and beams. This chain is too long for anyone to have a reason to go all the way through.
  • Pulse beam upgrades - break the prerequisite. Other than that, if at least one ship gets this weapon, it will be fine.
  • Wave - omg down to tier 2-3-5. Nao.

2. The loadouts.

  • Wave cannons - it MAY stay as it is, but the upgrade tiers should be halved (as above). Orky could have waves instead of phase missiles as its long range weapon, although it may not seem right, or as its basic weapon, though that would leave pulse cannons useless.
  • Pulse Beam upgrades - Turn disintegrator arrays on Orky to pulse beams. Yes it will look like argonev, but I believe this is the best choice. Alternatively you could give Beams to fighters (yes, it will look like advent...) or sentinels (yes, advent again, and discharging missiles would need rework). Or make upgrading this weapon increase the damage of Discharging missiles effect (it looks like a beam anyway).
    Yet another option, more brutal but my favorite as of now, would be to kick pulse cannons altogether from the Vasari arsenal and replace them with beams. It seems very hardcore but it wouldn't be bad if you think it through and imagine all the ships and orky shooting short pulse beams instead of cannons (something like the EGG has on its banks - to me, it looks AWESOME). Of course the beam upgrade tree would need slight rework then (like tier 2-4-6).
  • Phase missiles - This really needs some help. Everything uses phase missiles. Advent have three weapon types and they don't have any one of them on so many ships. Fighters could be given pulse cannons. Flak frigs could be given pulse beams or cannons. Turrets can be given waves. Orkulus can be given waves as its basic weapon or instead of phase missiles.

 

I would like to share my theory with you as well. I have a feeling that the race development went something like this:

  1. TEC was all shaped.
  2. Advent was all shaped.
  3. Devs had the cool idea of phase missiles and the gave them to Assailants and bombers.
  4. Devs understood that they couldn't give pulse cannons and beems to fighters, sentinels or turrets cause they would look too much like their TEC/Advent counterparts. So they decided to dump phase missiles on all of them.

While I understand that, thanks to the current layout, the way the ships look and shoot is unique in each case, but this results in underpowered Enforcer, useless Pulse beams, almost useless pulse cannons and a single weapon upgrade line that every Vasari player knows he HAS to follow like a shark follows blood - phase missiles.

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Agreed with just about everything (didn't read all though). Some ideas for changes sound too big, and simpler solutions sre possible, but sometimes there aren't any simpler solutions.

Pinpoint Bombardment should have NO prerequisites OR it shoud be a "side branch upgrade" for the fisrt or seconf pulse gun upgrade. Or have range bonus doubled as Kitkun said.

 

Pulse Beam upgrades - Turn disintegrator arrays on Orky to pulse beams. Yes it will look like argonev, but I believe this is the best choice. Alternatively you could give Beams to fighters (yes, it will look like advent...) or sentinels (yes, advent again, and discharging missiles would need rework). Or make upgrading this weapon increase the damage of Discharging missiles effect (it looks like a beam anyway).

Turning Orky Disinegrators into pulse beams sounds interesting. Giving the Orky a 4th weapon type (wave cannon or pulse beam) with its 4th weapon upgrade sounds good. The 20% damage bonus might need to be removed. However, would the 4th weapon ne long/medium or short ranged? Its a bit inconsistant, but it may work.

 

more brutal but my favorite as of now, would be to kick pulse cannons altogether from the Vasari arsenal and replace them with beams

Sounds good. The tree should then be changed to be 2/4/5/6 or something. Replacing a weapon type may be too big a change though.

 

A related issue is the DPS of Vasari cap ships. Why are these so low? Why does the Vulkoras do 41 DPS compared to a Marza 54 or even an Akkan's 50. Don't give me that crap about the Akkan being a side-shooter. Skirantra does 24 DPS compared to Sova's 36. There is no excuse for that. None.

 

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

related issue is the DPS of Vasari cap ships. Why are these so low? Why does the Vulkoras do 41 DPS compared to a Marza 54 or even an Akkan's 50. Don't give me that crap about the Akkan being a side-shooter. Skirantra does 24 DPS compared to Sova's 36. There is no excuse for that. None.

this was already discussed and iirc it came down to an issue of vasari caps having good firing arcs, so they actually get pretty good dps in most any direction (vs. others caps good in certain directions.)

most caps can only put like at most 1/2 their damage in one direction, whereas vasari caps can put like 3/5

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting crashmatusow, reply 4
this was already discussed and iirc it came down to an issue of vasari caps having good firing arcs, so they actually get pretty good dps in most any direction (vs. others caps good in certain directions.)

most caps can only put like at most 1/2 their damage in one direction, whereas vasari caps can put like 3/5
Wha? I don't get it. The total DPS in the unit chart means the total DPS done by all banks summed up AFAIK. And Vasari caps fail at that.

Somebody explain to me why a lvl1 Marza wipes a cobalt in 30 seconds and a lvl1 Vulkoras does that in 50 seconds? They are both meant to be forward-killers and have little to zero guns on their banks. And yet Vulk sawx in its frontal firepower, no idea why. What, somebody counted in that a Vulkoras with ALL phase missile upgrades will do as much as Marza with all rocket upgrades? What kind of balance is that? The cap's DPS is important in the first 5 minutes of the game, not when everybody flies 1000-supply fleets.
Vas cap ship damage should be buffed across the board by a healthy 15-20% imo, but that can hardly be called an important fix. Well, maybe except the EGG. The egg would be the best Vasari cap even if stripped off of all its weapons.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

amazing how much vasari started sucking all round ever since carriers got nerfed.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

amazing how much vasari started sucking all round ever since carriers got nerfed.
Well, they didn't change all that much. It is just that when most players find something that works for them (e.g. carrier spam) then they no longer give a shit how things are messed up in other departments.

I had this thread coming for a year. In a few hundred games as Vasari I think I reached full wave upgrades about 3 times, I upgraded pulse cannons about 25 times, I never reached bombing upgrade at all and I always seemed to end up with fully upgraded Phase missile tree.

It just ain't right that whatever you wanna do in your game, if it is at least to some extent viable, the Phase missiles are the only upgrade you need. Sometimes waves, but you really need 20-30 Hcs for the upgrades to become worth the cash.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Vasari cap ship DPS should look like this:

Kortul: 48 (doesn't need to be the same as other battleships as it gets more SC and beats them in a duel)

Skirantra: 32 atleast

Egg: same

Marauder: 45

Vulkoras: 52 (why only 41??? the Akkan does more damage!!! why?why?why?)

Back on main topic, making pulse beam weapons replace pulse guns is the best solution. Replace Disintegrators wiith wave cannons and its looking even better.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

I used to be able to win with Vassari. Now I can hardly avoid being rolled. Have I lost my touch, has the community gotten that much better or has the patching screwed them over???

I can't counter illums as it is with my LRF, and the advent have better econ then vassari (and don't give me the neutral BS - that is a hit an miss proposition - advent always have good econ due to the prog colony abiliity)

The weapon issue just becomes more relavent now as the vassari struggle more then they used to - quick start is a big cause of this too...

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

The weapon issue just becomes more relavent now as the vassari struggle more then they used to - quick start is a big cause of this too...
Well, the weapons issue won't buff the Vasari, as I mentioned. Dropping the wave tech by a few tiers may, but whatever happens with pulse beams and cannons won't help Vasari too much.

All I want here is a sensible weapons tech tree. Advent has it sensible, as does TEC. Vasari have one imba upgrade line, one sickly overpriced and one useless. That's plain wrong, regardless of whether it hurts the Vasari strength or not.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

I agree with you Nerull, the Vasari weapon's tech tree is messed up. Here are my 2 cents about what could be a good change;

(The numbers in front of the upgrades are the number of labs required for that research)

 

1. Rapid Pulse Cycling (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +5%, +10%)
(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)

2. Enhanced Pulse Emission (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +15%, +20%)
(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)
(Requires: Rapid Pulse Cycling level 2)

3. Quick Pulse Streaming (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +25%, +30%)
(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)
(Requires: Enhanced Pulse Emission level 2)

4. Intense Pulse Beams (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +35%, +40%)
(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)
(Requires: Quick Pulse Streaming level 2)

 

1. Phase Miniaturization (no changes)

3. Phase Prediction (no changes)

5. Superior Missile Phasing (no changes)

7. NME Warheads (+1 lab required)

 

1. Pinpoint Bombardment (Planet Bombing Range: +13%, +27%, +40%) (-5 labs required)
(Destructor, All Capital Ships)

 

2. Basic Wave Cannons (-2 lab required)

4. Wave Amplification (-2 lab required)

6. Superior Wave Cannons (-1 lab required)

 

The Vasari are indeed in need of some firepower, their phase missiles are good, but that only pushes people to rely even more on their LRF. Thats one of the reason people spam LRF.

All the other Vasari ships are in need of additional firepower, especially the Navigator, the Skirmisher, the Enforcer and the Capships.

Combining the pulse guns and the pulse beams into one single-continuous upgrade and dropping the number of labs for the Wave Cannons could solve the Vasari dilemma.

Pinpoint Bombardment should be a really really cheap/very easy to research upgrade. The advantage of that research are minimal at best.

Anyway, Nerull, thats what I think should be done for the Vasari weapon's upgrades.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Sounds good. Having pulse guns and pulse beams share upgrades would have the same effect as replacing pulse guns with pulse beams and may be easier to implement.

However, with these changes the pulse gun tree may have to go to a slightly higher research level say 2/3/4/5. Replacing Vasari disintegrators with wave cannons would also help make wave cannon upgrades more useful, but this might not be needed.

Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top

@OP

You know, you make a really good point, not one I really thought of before.

I used to always get the Phase Missile research and the other weapon trees didn't get touched until I had money shooting out my ears and I had got all the good stuff.  The other weapon trees are terrible, Phase Missiles tree improves everything I actually care about.  Enforcers are an afterthought in my fleets anyway later game.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Pulse Guns and the lasers in the othe races upgrade the scouts too.

N3Rull, who are you online? I think you've probably already told me at one point, but I forget.

For the moment, the greatest thing that could be done to balance the game within the Vasari tech tree is bring the wave tech down to tier 2,4,5 to correspond with the respective HC tech trees of the other races.

I don't know how reasonable it is to ask for the weapon type of a ship to be changed. The devs haven't done anything of the sort since the game came out, so I seriously doubt it'll happen now.

 

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

N3Rull, who are you online? I think you've probably already told me at one point, but I forget.

I never play online these days. I don't have the time to spend on a game that may last 3-4 hours. Work work work. 
I used to play on my friends' acc some time ago when I visited him for weekends, but now I rarely do. We played some lan games as well. I don't have much time to visit him anymore, either.

I don't know how reasonable it is to ask for the weapon type of a ship to be changed. The devs haven't done anything of the sort since the game came out, so I seriously doubt it'll happen now.
I am pretty sure that mounting a different weapon on a ship is no problem.
They have all animations ready. Weapon hardpoints are ready.
I believe that all they need to do is change a few lines of text in the files. I may be wrong of course, but IC are obviously no programming rookies and thy must have thought about it.
Can any modder confirm how hard that is?

4. Intense Pulse Beams (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +35%, +40%)

(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)
+40% !? o.O

Wouldn't that be a bit OP?

I think that if the pulse tree looked like this:

1. Rapid Pulse Cycling (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +5%, +10%)  <- At tier 1
(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)

2. Enhanced Pulse Emission (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +15%, +20%) <- At tier 2
(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)
(Requires: Rapid Pulse Cycling level 2)

3. Quick Pulse Streaming (Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam Damage: +25%, +30%) <- At tier 4
(Navigator, Skimisher, Migrator, Subverter, Overseer, Starbase, Devastator, Evacuator, Marauder, Desolator)
(Requires: Enhanced Pulse Emission level 2)

It would be fine.
Good idea.
Splendid idea!
Merge the niche weapon (pulse beams) with another hardly used weapon (pulse cannons) to form one solid tree.
I like it.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

changing a weapon type is easy. All that's needed is to change a SINGLE line. It goes up if you want the proper effects, or if you want different effects.

I once made a little test-mod to see if I could change the effects of a weapon type (TEC Lasers) and make it a different one (Autocannons). The Result? A Sova carrier that looks like it has Kol ACs and sounds like it too, but really just has Lasers

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

I agree it would take no effort, I'm just saying the game hasn't been changed in such a way since it came out, so i have a hard time believing it's going to happen now.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting JuleTron, reply 8
Vasari cap ship DPS should look like this:

Kortul: 48 (doesn't need to be the same as other battleships as it gets more SC and beats them in a duel)

Skirantra: 32 atleast

Egg: same

Marauder: 45

Vulkoras: 52 (why only 41??? the Akkan does more damage!!! why?why?why?)

Back on main topic, making pulse beam weapons replace pulse guns is the best solution. Replace Disintegrators wiith wave cannons and its looking even better.

 

How do you calculate current ships' dps?? And what's the dps on the Vulkoras? I always thought this was the best looking cap ship for Vasari (I don't really like the design for the kortul, the egg and the marauder)

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

The vasari got screwed over by the devs. Phase missles are a good idea, but if you take away that, a vasari fleet is about as threatening as a neutral planet's militia.

The enforcer needs higher base dps, at least on par with the kodiak. And waves need to be buffed on cap ships, so that the wave tree is worth it.

I think that either pulse guns, or pulse beams, should be removed. Pulse beams look cool, but whats wrong with just having pulse guns on caps? this would also make the pulse gun tree worth pursuing, but it would have to be beefed up a little, (maybe a +10% extra damage increase)

The planet bombing tree should be changed to a cooldown decrease, rather than a range upgrade.

Vasari strikecraft need a buff too; three bombers per squad, seriously?

As it is, the vasari lose relevance by the mid game and have to resort to hit-and-run tactics if they survive until the late game. Enforcers are a large part of this, but also the lackluster vasari caps. (egg aside)

I would caution against making the lowering the tier of the vasari research as this might allow them to steamroll anything (particularly the advent) in the early game, and leave them with nothing in the late game.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

I would caution against making the lowering the tier of the vasari research as this might allow them to steamroll anything (particularly the advent) in the early game, and leave them with nothing in the late game.

Well, lowering the research tier of wave cannon upgrades would only reduce their cost and time required for upgrade, which are both unexplainably high.
You still need 5 military labs to make their main users, the Enforcers, right?
So there's no early game ownage possible.

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting N3rull, reply 21

I would caution against making the lowering the tier of the vasari research as this might allow them to steamroll anything (particularly the advent) in the early game, and leave them with nothing in the late game.


Well, lowering the research tier of wave cannon upgrades would only reduce their cost and time required for upgrade, which are both unexplainably high.
You still need 5 military labs to make their main users, the Enforcers, right?
So there's no early game ownage possible.

I didn't mean wave cannons only, if everything is shifted down a tier or made less expensive then the vasari get stronger faster and they are already the strongest early in the game.

The vasari caps with both wave and missle upgrades would be a little too strong too early.

I don't think that the research tree can be balanced just by switching around the tiers, the weapons that the ships use need to be better balanced. Phase missles are great, but does EVERYTHING have to have them?

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

Phase missles are great, but does EVERYTHING have to have them?
Well, no. That's one of my reasons to call Vasari weapons being messed. Everything that does damage uses phase missiles.

Anyway, nobody's suggesting to bring everything down in tech tree. You must've misread.
The last suggestion was to combine Pulse Cannons and Pulse Beams into one tech line.
Reason: Pulse cannon is a niche weapon (Skirmisher, Orkulus, nothing else really) and the Pulse Beam is just dead (the Kortul and the EGG are the main users of this weapon type... whoever takes a Cap for its GUNS anyway?).
Combining those two won't make anything OP. If anything, it will allow the Kortul to EVER receive a damage upgrade, because right now, nobody in his right mind would spend his money on pulse beam upgrades.

Oh and bombardment upgrade needs a lot of love.
It sucks.
Big time.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting N3rull, reply 23

You must've misread.

Probably, was very tired when i read this.

 

It just seems weird how the vasari are a one-trick-pony. Phase missles on everything useful, both squadrons, caps, lrms, flak...

And what is supposed to deal heavy damage (hcs) get stuck with underutilized "wave" cannons that nueter the enforcer.

I think the bombardment research should be replaced with a passive ability for the siege frigates that boosts bombardment cooldown for other nearby siege frigates and caps, ideas?

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

I was thinking of making this same topic myself.  Pulse guns are okay, but otherwise Vasari are all phase missiles.  The Vasari weapon upgrades are really messed up; there's only one line that's worth investing into, the others range from mediocre to complete and utter crap.

Phase missiles affect the vast majority of Vasari units, are their most cost-effective upgrades, and have the most potential?  Is it any wonder that Vasari are one-trick ponies?