New Assassin (Light): Siren

Awesome Idea I WANT TO PLAY. She seems balanced for 1v1 and the ideas and numbers seem fair. In group fights she is highly exploitable, and her walls create problems for creep pathing. A+

More walls for my rook to hump? No thanks.  Maybe if pathfinding was a little better than it was in Total Annihilation. I see where you're going with this, but you need to think of strats with the abilities you propose before proposing them. If those abilities leave you winning with little to no effort? Then you've probably just come up with a stupid ability.

45 yard range Deathgrip? No thanks. Ohhh, you're going for that arti flag on crucible? Nah, actually you're sitting in my base next to my crystal while me and my towers wail on you. Have fun getting out. TP scrolls shouldnt' be required to deal with enemy DGs. lol just read the last point of that too, 60 yard range. Oh what's that? You're anywhere near the arti flag on cataract? Nah, you're actually in the middle of my 8 turrets with a wall in your way. Oh oh, but you can tp out so it's fair.  Not to mention the wall. Jesus, maybe if allies couldn't get through... but still it's just preying on the weakest mechanic of a game that has few mechanics to boot. Imagine two regulus running away you pop the wall now they can just sit there wailing on whoever was chasing them, moving back and forth around this thing you can't get through.

Eh, i'd go longer but I dont care enough to tear this DG to shreds in how stupid OP every single ability is.

I like the siren idea, maybe you can team up with that other guy that wants a horn that controls creep, that might be a decent assassin DG ability, control an enemy creep wave for a short time and have them do extra damage or something, would go along with the Siren thing too. This DG is not an assassin, as you pointed out, it has one dps ability (two if you count the shield which i would), and the rest support. What other Assassin has a purely support ability? (barring buffs that have auras).

Good general premise, but all of those moves need to be reworked. (thinking up good strats for ways to pwn dg's then building a character to do that is seldom a good way to come up with a balanced character)

[edit] Also, if you're trying to come up with a serious DG proposal, dont just think of ways for your DG to own other people, think of how it would get owned by the existing DGs, because that has to be a possibility. IE: include weaknesses, of which this has none[/edit]

A quick rework of 1 of the abilities would make it much more balanced. Siren's call could swap your position for the DG position that you target.

Thanks for the feedback so far.

I've actually thought quite extensively about what skills to give and not to give this character.  I am not going to list all the possible scenarios of what can and can be done with this possible demigod, but theory aside, I can think of countless counters to her. I've listed several of her weaknesses, and it does very little to theory craft a demigod who could have a variety of builds and gear.  She can either be a weak tank and heavy CC, strong tank with weak CC, or a mix, and each can be countered.  For example, summoning a Rook outside his towers, only to have her face smashed in by a hammer slam (she has no interrupt/stun and needs to melee to do damage), stunned by a boulder roll, and subsequently meleed to death by rooks heavy melee attack and shoulder AoE.  I don't think it's necessary to list a variety of scenarios on how to destroy a proposed demigod; people tend to be smart enough to think of counters on their own.

I understand your concern with pathing, and while that is an issue, it shouldn't be the reason why a proposed demigod is dismissed.  It's not as if this proposed demigod would make it in the game in the near future; whereas, I hope pathing is cleaned up in the near future.

I'm not sure how you are comparing a summons (displacement +snare) to a deathgrip (stun+damage).  Yes, a summons can be extremely powerful when used properly, but so are many other skills in this game that deal no damage (silence, charm, etc.) and that is what it should be (roughly) compared to.

The longest teleport would be at level 15, and by that time, a 60 yard summons should be just as desirable to other class abilities gained at level 15 (which tend to be powerful abilities).  Not too mention, at level 15 most people shrug off towers, and they should if properly equipped.  This is also a case where I cannot give a totally accurate and balanced number, because I haven't had the opportunity to test a 60 yard summons, but it should be a respectable distance.

The walls are very short duration, and unless they are set up directly next to a character they will probably fall by the time a character reaches it.  The walls could be used for a number of situations, but I think you are only looking at the situation in how she could be classified as overpowered; which I fail to see.  One use of the walls can be to prevent fleeing, and I'm sorry if you have a problem with a counter to Regulus kiting, but that's a valid use of the skill and in no way guarentees his death.  The walls should allow allies to pass through as this can open up a lot of griefing to teammates, and it allows the wall to be used for protection if your ally is getting chased.  With regards to how counterable the wall ability is, well, you have the option to port (whether it be a cloak or scroll); I fail to see why there needs to be a plethora of counters to render the ability useless.  As it stands, there are no store bought counters to stuns, and they fall in the CC category.

I'm not going to get in a debate over the classification of an assassin versus general, but I categorize any demigod that does not use minions as an assassin and not simply a class that does heavy dps.  As it stands, the generals can easily out dps the assassins if played even half properly.  Despite not having many heavy dps skills, she is built around being a quick auto-attack dps demigod, similar to UB.

Hopefully this has addressed some of your concerns.

Ok i see this demigod as ridiculously OP.

My biggest problem would have to be coral barrier - such a huge advantage with the invulnerability on rank 3. And since most 4 rank abilities start at level 2 and can be ranked up at level 5, 8 and 15 you are giving ppl a 7 second Oak shield every 15 seconds by level 8. Not only is it very OP, but your description of it is contradictory as well. If you cant receive damage you cant reflect damage, unless you intend that to work too in which case the skill becomes super powerful. And besides you do realize that the only other demigod that has DR is UB? Not only that, but his DR is only 40% and is activated by actually getting over 500 damage, and get this... ITS AT LEVEL 15!

Ok, second problem - osmosis. I realize this is not much of a nuke and the mana drain is what this game needs, but 12% of an enemys total... nvm this skill is the only thing thats not even remotely OP... If anything its pure suck.

Third problem - sirens call. 60 yards at last level is still a very, VERY long distance (note that Regulus' snipe is 90 yards). Nuff said.

Fourth problem - fluidity. The movespeed increase is almost ok (unless you want her base movespeed to be 6.3 in which case the max movespeed increase should be 10%). For the evasion i have only 1 thing to say: no other demigod in this game receives an evasion bonus from any of their skills. Either remove the movespeed bonus or remove the evasion bonus because both of them cant possibly stay under one skill.

And for the obvious fifth problem - waterwall. Beside the obvious pathing issues i would have no other problem with this ability if it would grant passage to NOONE, not even the siren.

Thanks for your feedback, Drake-Cid. 

It seems as if most of your concerns are due to the numbers attached to the skills and not the actual skills themselves, which is most understandable. 

I wanted Coral Barrier to be a useful skill and not something someone looked at and thought, "Meh, this can be skipped."  But in so doing, I realize their is a fine line between making it overpowered and useless.  This skill is designed to act like a redistribution of damage; for example, you receive 50% and they receive 50%. I agree that the numbers need to be tweaked, but to what extend, I am not sure.  Considering she has no protection besides the barrier, I would like to make it somewhat akin to Oak's shield, but with obvious vulnerability and a bite to it (should an enemy demigod press the attack on her while the barrier is up).  I could feasibly see the shield going from 25%, 40%, 55% and still be effective, but worry that many people would likely not want to invest in a 25% short duration damage shield and would bypass the skill altogether.  Additionally, I'm also in agreement that the cooldown and duration of the skill may need to be increased/decreased (say 30s cooldown / 5 sec duration; I updated skill with this change in main post).   I imagine the skills would be spread out, so that the best barrier would not be obtained until level 10 (or so).  One thing to note though, is that any damage generated by the barrier can be mitigated by simply not attacking her while it's up.  I've changed the skill to reflect autoattack damage, as there could be some issues with reflecting mine and tower damage.  Lastly, the (heavy) mana cost of this skill would severely limit how often this skill can be used.  If you have suggestions for better numbers, please feel free to supply them.

With regards to Osmosis, I think you may not be looking at the entire picture, as this skill has potential to be very useful.  Because the siren is meant to be in melee combat, Osmosis is meant to keep her in combat for longer periods of time.  Additionally, it is a skill that allows her to drain both health 'and mana', which no demigod currently does.  Combined with Tidal Wave which negates regeneration, she can effectively drain away a enemies's health and mana while sustaining her own.  The usefulness of this skill greatly increases as she levels due to the higher autoattack dps, which yields greater health and mana drained.  Additionally +damage/+attack speed armor also enhances the effectiveness of this skill.  Just with the purchase of one popular item, Narmoth's Ring, she can drain 20% health with her autoattacks when she has all skill points invested.  If she were dealing 300 damage per second at level 15, she would be effectively draining 60 HP and 32 mana per second from an enemy, which is very useful, and likely an underestimation of what she would be capable of in melee at 15.  If she were to get crit gear, the usefulness of the skill would dramatically increase.  This is one of the skills that you really need to look at the big picture to see how useful the skill can be.

Yes, I understand that Siren's Call range is likely to be large when all skill points are invested; this is an issue with how do you balance a skill that does no damage but has great tactical use with range.  As a side note, Regulus has the option to snipe across the map with tracking, negating his range limitation with respect to clouded areas at level 5 (most good Regulus players chose this option at 5 for obvious reasons).  This is just one of the skills you'll have to look at think, would it be useful with a different range?  If so, please provide a range you feel would be most appropriate.  This could simply be fixed with negating the last level of the skill, and keeping max range at 45, which I still feel is very useful.

I didn't give thought to what her starting movement speed would be (but 6.0 sounds reasonable), but you bring up an excellent point.  The reason I wanted to give her a movement speed increase was because of her lack of snare (beyond Siren's Call, which is short duration and on a long cooldown).  This was also the reasoning why her movement speed increase was greater than what was granted by Inner Beast, because UB has access to a melee snare.  You mentioned that no other demigod receives a bonus to dodge, and that is exactly why I want to implement it in this skill.  Dodge is not a heavily used skill because it forces a demigod to sacrifice HP with regards to item choices, and really only becomes lucrative when you have a lot of it.  I wanted to give her the option to be heavy in dodge, but frail with HP, if the user so chooses.

If waterwall doesn't allow passage of allies, it opens up a lot of possibility to griefing of allies (and friendly minions) and also limits the usefulness of using the wall for protection of your allies.

Thanks again for feedback!

Well the concept is ok'ish, the beginning numbers were somewhat awful, but since you're willing to work on it, it has the potential to be good.

For osmosis, i'd suggest the numbers to be 2>5>7>10. But then again... since Erebus has a 10% lifesteal aura at level 15 then maybe the numbers 4>8>12>16 would be tolerable. Also, maybe it should initially only grant lifesteal then at maybe level 5? she would have an additional standalone passive ability which would say smth like: "siren gains manasteal equal to her lifesteal". Dunno just a thought.

Tidalwave should have a range of 15/15/20/20 yards because its ranged and an AoE. Also i don't know how wide the wave should be, but maybe it should increase in degrees. Maybe something like the wave starts at the siren and always travels the maximum distance and is 15°/25°/35°/45° wide. The damage seems ok enough. Oh and level 5 should also give the bonus to waterwall, like all enemies that come in contact with the wall get that debuff.

Coral barrier could have the numbers 15%/30%/45% for the DR and 45%/90%/135% for the reflect (reflect should be after the damage reduction then), so this way it reflects back (if you are to disregard your already existing armor) 38%/63%/75% of the attackers initial autoattack damage. Also the reflect would be spell damage, because reducing the damage with armor twice leaves the damage very low.

Maybe sirens call could be a powerful... Damn can't think of any ideas that would be less powerful. Uhh honestly... the only thing that would maybe... god damn i can't beleive im gonna suggest this. Maybe if it were a channeling effect at ranges 15/20/35/30 yards so that the demigod targeted would walk straight toward you for 1/1,5/2/3 seconds. BUT if it were like this then maybe it would be something like, the farther away the easier to resist the sirens charms thus movespeed would be slowed as if the target wants to get away, but as he gets closer would move with full speed. Also if it were like this i imagine it could only be used against enemies.

For waterwall to make sense not to let enemies pass would be smth like: the earth cracks open revealing hot geysers that instantaneously begin spurting hot water at high velocities in the air preventing passage for all enemies and flinging lighter minions into the air. This way it would kill enemy minions in the area of effect by throwing them in the air (since there is no friendly fire in this game anyway it would be logical that friendlies can walk through <.<).

Maybe fluidity would work smth like this. Siren gets permanent passive movespeed +, and after casting tidalwave or waterwall gains the amount of evasion + given for a short while?

These are all just suggestions tho, no need to implement these ^^.

Thanks again for the feedback Drake.

For Osmosis, I added one more level (5th rank) that does 15% health/mana drain.

As for Tidal Wave, I am thinking something along the lines of QoT's attack, but maybe a tad bit wider considering this would be the siren's only damaging attack.

I replaced Coral Barrier with a more straight-forward self-only buff, which although a bit more bland would still be a unique skill.

Siren's Call had its range value decreased based upon your suggestion.

Waterwall is still something I am considering editing up some, but I like your suggestions about throwing up the smaller minions as another tactical use of the spell.

I also liked your suggestion about the increase in dodge upon skill activation and set that as a level 5 skill option, and removed the dodge from Fluidity.

Over all, great suggestions!