Boring Linear Tech/Spell Trees

I concur. For a Magic based game I particularly liked the MoM approach.

If it did follow a linear tech tree like GC2, it would be cool if a new tech tree were generated each game from a pool of spells in each school. So you might have the choice of the next spell to research in each school, but you would not know what was going to be available farther down the tree. Which really makes more sense, you typically do not know in advance what future tech is going to be available based on what you are researching now.

As far as the mundane tech tree, I think that should be more or less static in every game.

I'm not sure about the blind idea, but there should DEFINATELY be multiple prereqs for stuff: it REALLY helps with the linearity, and generally makes research more interesting.

maybe its blind fan-boyism.   but I hope that the spell research doesn't use a "tree" at all.  

anyway:  https://forums.elementalgame.com/355000 < this thread

AoW:SM did that with spell research, giving you some options at a time out of all the spells, based on what your chosen schools were. The problem that caused was the same as with really randomized tech trees or "blind research": the Random Number Generator.

Not all spells (or techs) are created equal. Sometimes you'd get lucky and the really good ones would appear early, and sometimes you'd get unlucky and they'd appear really late (or not at all). A couple of the spells were game altering if you got them early, and it really turned into luck. If you're on the wrong side of that, it really sucks. ("getting RNG'd" is what we call it in World of Warcraft when you do everything right but the computer gives you a string of luck that is impossible to handle)

So while static tech trees can get old, they have the advantage of being static. You're not going to enter a game and find yourself losing simply because the computer let the other guy research Hellfire while giving you the chance to research +1 Irrigation.

That 'RNG problem' isn't a problem for some singleplayer types (ones like me, anyway). My main interest is variety (replayability), and I really appreciated how different a given MoM game could be based on what spells got in the game at what points. Being certain that access to a given spell is just a matter of working for it is sort of a pre-built rut, and I have a hard enough time jumping out of my turtle trails through any of the TBS games I've liked.

Same. I think MoM avoided the RNG problems by having spells split into different rarities, and then getting a random number of each rarity based on your spell books that could be researched. I would not like it if you could get the incredibly powerful spells in early game by random luck. But I did like the fact that it presented you with ~8 spells that you could chose from to research. And sometimes just by bad luck there weren't any real great options, and part of the fun and replayability of the game was having to work through that. I also liked that you could specifically choose a few guaranteed spells, again based on your spel books. That way if you had enough spellbooks in one school you could guarantee that you would eventually get a certain spell, but there was some randomness in when each spell became available. (But it didn't let you get the really powerful spells too early, partly because they took more research and it would take you 30 turns to research.

I'm also for a system where you don't quite know what's coming next. Obviously there need to be limits (like the ones Denryu mentioned from MoM), or luck becomes too important. And GW: the 'RNG problem' isn't usually a problem in single player, but it can be if it's pronounced enough. I have played a few games in AoW where I was just completely screwed over in the magic front - shitty spell after shitty spell after shitty spell. Also, I don't like the idea that researching fireball might unlock Blessed Harvest - they're totally unrelated. It would be nice if spells were somewhat divided into categories - and some spells could fall under multiple categories, or have multiple prerequisites (although prereqs would be difficult to manage in a semi-blind system).

Something else that might be an interesting feature is having the ability to refresh (for lack of a better word) the spells available for research. This itself should be magical research - it should require mana (or whatever magic research requires) and time, but upon completion a portion of spells available are swapped out for other spells. It should be balanced so that it's expensive enough that people don't just sit there refreshing until they get exactly what they want, but not so restricted that it would be the obvious choice if your available spells for research just aren't helpful for your situation. 

Alpha Centauri had linear tech research, even if it was blind. You just couldn't be sure what you got.

Anyway, it's been discussed before and so far I'm sticking to my guns. Alpha Centauri teching was the best.

Some limits on the randomness can really help, yeah. What bugs me about it is when you get totally screwed, which could happen in AoW. There was a maxinum number of spells, and in some cases there was more spells then that limit. So you could get to a point where the really strong spells (the only reason to go as a pure school rathern then a hybrid) just don't appear at all.

Other games you get them fast, and it lets you totally mow down everything in your path.

I don't know about something like that..... I rather enjoy the predictability of a planned tech tree: you can choose to research an important or crucial technology, and not mess around with getting random crap instead. Imagine in GC2 if you wanted to counter the enemy's missiles with, say, ECM, and you wound up with a bunch of low-level armor that is little to no help. Of course, there could be some randome elements added, but there would be a definite tree that was only slightly deviated from.

That's why I am for a static mundane tech tree. It makes sense that if you are trying to find a way to strengthen your armor, you are not likely to develop a catapult (although you might find a way to improve weapons as well).

The bad thing about a predictable tech tree for spells is that you learn the optimum path to victory and never deviate from it (much). Stale. Boring. "The Rut". Seeing as how some people like a set tree maybe they can make it an option - that seems unlikely though, if they have a set tree I doubt they would add the option to create a new tech tree each game.

Well, good, unpredictable AI can help A LOT with this, but one thing I thought of was having the techs move "around" in the tree to a certain degree: each tech has a number of possible prerequisistes that it COULD have, and one or perhaps more would be chosen as a true prereq before each game (if more, they would have to be "weighted" in some way to prevent there being an absurd number of them), allowing the tree to change to a certain degree. There would still be a danger of getting a bad tree, but a well-designed weighting and balance system could remediate the problem to a large degree.

That's a nice idea. It could change things up enough to keep things interesting but still allow us to look ahead rather than plow along blindly. If they do go down the linear road, I'd love to see something like this applied.

However, I think I still prefer a semi blind system where you aren't entirely sure what you're going to get or when.

The problem with blind systems is that after the first time, they are no longer blind. You know what to expect, and research accordingly.

...Only if it's a retarded blind research system. There is absolutely no point whatsoever to have a blind system with a fixed linear research tree. But once you add randomness or take away the linearity all together, no matter how many times you play you won't be able to tell beforehand what will pop up when. The best you could do is figure out probabilities for how often and when different researches show up.

I normally just "lurk" here on the forums but I feel I must give my input on this topic.

Out of all the games I've played so far I like Master of Orion's tec system the best.  It may not have been perfect but it was fun.  Some of the technology you missed while teching gave me a reason to use spies and also a reason to negotiate trade with other races.

That is all. 

That would be a blind static tech tree which would be retarded. I am pretty sure that everyone that wants a blind system also wants a degree of things getting moved around, possibly even completely different spells available from one game to the next.

Yeah there would be the possibility of "being dealt a bad hand". I don't want it so you can be totally screwed by the RNG - but maybe enough difference that it would cause you to rethink your strategy. Thats the real plus a dynamic tech tree is you can't just win with the same strategy over and over..

I don't particularly care either way but if a blind research system was used I would at least want to control the general direction research takes. 

Once you play it enough times, you know every possibility given what you've already seen. So you will get to a point where there's only a few techs you can get before getting the more powerful ones, and those are what you'll get. It becomes more annoying then surprising very quickly.

Let's say I'm trying to mine diamonds or something. So I try to get the research done to do that. How much other stuff will I wind up randomly getting before I get what I want? If there's a lot of random options, who the hell knows, but I'll get fed up pretty damn fast. If there's only a couple of options, it won't be very long every time, and  then why bother with the randomness at all?

Yes, getting RNG'd is quite infuriating. Even worse when you don't see it coming. Plus, it's not how real research works: say you are trying to build a faster car. You would get a bunch of engineers, and physicists, put them in a lab with wind tunnels, engine prototypes, and tell them the specs. They might fibnd out some new stuff to help with later projects in the process, but in the end you get what you decide to research. It's not like you are going to get a vaccine for ebola, or smaller cell phones. The fact is, a linear tech tree is actually the CLOSEST thing to scientific development I have seen, provided that there are "breakthrough" ooportnities.

I would agree with you as far as knowing the next thing down the line. I do not agree that you always know what is down the road two or three jumps down the tech line. I mean if you did know that in real life, you would just research that and bypass all they steps in between.

I would also point out that a good many discoveries are made while researching something unrelated. Microwave ovens are a good example of a pretty much accidental invention.

At any rate for the mundane tree I think a static linear tree makes sense. But for spells, I think more randomness and a blind tree would both be more fun and is a better fit

While you know exactly what techs are in what category and what the prereqs are, you can never be certain as to what you're getting, unless there's only a single tech left in that category (which does, and should, happen). It's hard to explain how this randomization works, short of playing Alpha Centauri.

From what I've heard about MoM, I think I'd like that for spell research. But still definately GalCiv-influenced 'blind' "Alpha Centauri"-styled tech research.

Having only played AoW:SM but read about MoMs system I think I prefer Master of Magics system.

The issue with there being too many spells so you don't get the rare "World of Darkness" spell that you really want can be solved with you learning the spells you want first. But then again I'm not sure.

I think I want a system like this:

• Research 3 common spells unlocks an uncommon spell
• Research 5 common spells unlocks a rare spell
• Research 3 common and 1 uncommon spell unlocks a rare spell
• Research 3 uncommon spells unlocks a rare spell

This way, you can unlock rare spells both by researching many common spells OR by a mix of common and uncommon OR by focusing on the uncommon ones exclusively. You still have to research many common spells though but this system will allow you to get a rare spell quicker. I find this system to be a great way of having to use many basic spells but you can also save up for that superspell really early (not that you would be able to cast it very soon because of the extreme costs of those spells).

I believe that common and some uncommon spells in my system will be used the first 50 turns since the rare spells are to expensive in the beginning. It is however possible to get rare spells if you want to.

I kind of agree, but the microwave oven was more of an accidental product than a tech. They were researching microwaves and found out what else they do, not researching microwaves and then discovered integrated circuits.

"Researchers, I command you to develop improved bows."

"Oh dear leader, we have researched away and developed what you asked for: improved wheels!"