Well, I did it.  The OP is now MUCH shorter and Aurora Games has the statistics of all things that have been finalized.  Things without proper statistics such as SotL's, TT's, and UC's are not yet included.  The backstories have also been moved to AGF.

Click on the external link to go to the new home of these things.

mine detonations- that takes a little explaining.

Mines have two abilities, a passive with a delayed activate that phases out the mines, and also applies the invulnerable bool modifier to the mine, and an active ability that can only be used once the mine has been cloaked. When a mine has been cloaked, it is now activated.

The active ability is what does the damage. A mines' active ability however is not disableable (to my knowledge, and it wouldn't make sense if it was), though the ability to deploy mines can be disabled (can't set 'em up in Magnetic Clouds). The detonate ability is different for each races mine, but accomplishes the same objective. There are some differences-

Advent homing mines do 1050 damage to the target, and also a 150 damage AoE (forgot the range)

Vasari Gravity mines do no damage, but instead the slow down enemy warships and disable phase drives. Gravity Mines are like emplaceable Eggs with Gravity Warhead. Except cheaper.

TEC Proximity&Vasari Explosive mines do not have an AoE damage, but only do a single-target damage. This is likely because Advent Homing Mines can actually HOME IN on their targets.

Ahh.. Well, by violently shoving the mines into PS, let's say the abilities on them get disabled (and thus their ability to go boom).  Ability deactivation ought to work just fine for this.

unsure, as boolmodifier 'PhaseOut' disables abilities. Alternately, you could have a phase space inversion system, that sends mines into normal space. When a mine is in normal space it is vulnerable to EVERYTHING.

No, it deactivates abilities first and then sends it into PS...  And have you gone to AGF?

Forums Go Boom!

[double post]

[triple post]

oh man, i just wrote the entire below post, then the forums went boom, and i was like OH NO YOU DIDNT!!!

thank god for the Back button and temporary files... anyway...

Gosh! thankyou that was always a headache to scroll through that...

So, to answer some previous questions:

UCGW = UnColonisable Gravity Well, so like Magnetic Clouds, Plasma Storms, Gas Giants, even stars.

Mines: TEC only build at controlled planets, in clusters of ten. you have a big green circle and it arrays them out in some sort of random order. (though, for some reason, every 1 in about 30 mines gets thrown way out on the other side of the GW, i have no idea why...)

Vasari Minelayer can be set on autocast, but generally lays the mines in a line (at least the last time i played it, which, given, was months ago. its possible nowadays you click an area and it deploys them in a circle like TEC)

Advent use their Light Carrier to build a Homing Mine Squadron, which is built and flies around harmlessly, until it is deployed. the squadron is then 'destroyed' and a new one is rebuilt by the LC (at least, thats how i believe its done)

um... minesweeper weapons dont destroy mines... the weapons only detect the mines and the secondary ability destroys them? am i getting that right? =P

ive heard about that idea but i cant find the original post he made...

isnt it basically like a Lancer but with splash damage? thats fine... will that also double as the vasari minesweeper?

because:

so if we do make them frigates, we dont need to bother merging them with Assault Cruisers...

Fair enough, im usually of the opinion its just easier and better to keep it simple, most people dont have the vocab we do, and there is no need to overcomplicate it, but meh, its all good.

The way Mines are cloaked, is they are 'hidden' in phase space, just not moving. Scout equip does two things: 1. when in a grav well with mines, it shows the location of all mines in the entire well. and 2. when in range, it pulls them out of phase space so they can be fired upon. In the game, when you mouse over a cloaked mine, it says

Invulnerable
Phase Engines disabled
Sublight Engines disabled
Regen disabled
weapons disabled

or something like that.

then when you come close enough to a mine, it decloaks, comes out of phase space and blows up near you. so Phase Involusion would be best described as keeping mines 'cloaked' even when they want to decloak to detonate. an even better ability would be to have them detonate, but 'while still in phase space', so they detonate, clearing the field, but dont actually cause any damage. im not saying it should be implemented, just that it would be cool.

so:

doesnt apply, because mines are already in phase space...

but whatever, its all semantics

lastly:

you can deactivate the mine's 'Detonation' main ability... its set on autocast, and activates on any target within range. it can, however, be set on manual, and you can wait for a certain ship to pass by and tell it to blow up manually. you could render an entire minefield harmless by selecting all the mines (alt+click) and de-activating autocast.

i did it once in a game, i deactivated all the mines (by accident actually) then an enemy fleet came in and passed the minefield with no damage. i freaked out, checked it, realised the problem and rea-activated them. when the enemy fleet tried to retreat, they got caught between my fleet, and the mine field. combined with a PJI (Phase Jump Inhibitor), that guy wasnt going home to his wife and kids *evil laugh*

actually, i was thinking about this just now... why not mix the new UC with this flak cruiser? even if we dont mix the two, this ship is pretty good at supporting a fleet, both with its anti-SC capability and standard anti-ship weapons, and if we do merge the two, the fleet supporting abilities would make it a fearsome support vessel...

this way, we arent exactly making a Flak Cruiser to outdo the Flak frig, but a well rounded combat fleet support craft... i like the idea, it feels very sophisticated to me, rather than most units you see in RTS that do one thing and one thing only...

(i had to remember what PBs and WC were again... man, the acronyms are getting heavy...) anyway, i want PBs because i can imagine them as an Anti-SC weapon, while Waves seem too big and bulky. i know we can shrink the effect and speed up refire rate and projectile speed... still... it doesnt feel right... i feel like im back in the 1985 version of Asteroids or Missile Command where im firing my nuclear triangles at the evil bad guys super squares of doom, backed up by his dreaded hexagons of domination...

whereas Pulse Beams reach the target instantly, can be seen, and look cooler than the evil 'cresent-shapes' of destruction (waves) at least in this context... idn, lets see how it looks in the alpha and i might change my mind... just the way i see it now...

and no, i dont believe mines destroy your own units... as in they dont detonate when you fly your fleet over them, nor when the detonate, but its best be safe and move your constructors out of the way because if the mines dont get them, the enemy could.

i think the only thing that causes friendly fire damage is the Orkulus Big Red Button ability (the starbase goes kamikaze, destroys itself and causes massive damage to all ships within range)

back to Artillery Cruisers briefly...

are they long range or short range? are they basically like destoryers but with heavy splash damage weaponry? are they mainly anti-structure or also anti-fleet? if they are anti-fleet, why not just replace the advent and TEC assault cruisers with Artillery Cruisers (i just realised they both use AC as their initials)? i never really liked Assault Cruisers anyway, and only grudgingly used them for a quick way around (or through) starbases...

so then shall we start giving them values?

[EDIT] Wow... triple post... thanks FGB... (Forums Go Boom)

Well, I would have responded sooner, but the stupid forums didn't alert me that there had been a new post in this thread, so I'm answering now that its midnight here...

Anyways, in my book, there is a form of interstellar travel called "Breaker/Rift Space."  What you do is you manipulate gravity so strongly around your ship that you actually pinch off your little piece of the universe which then begins floating around in the Bulk/Class III multiverse.  The universe tries to stick you back on and by altering the particle/energy patterns, you can trick the universe into sending you somewhere else.  Upon "reconnection/reweaving," the universe tries to deflate your bubble and send all its volume into itself.  When this happens, any life would be obliterated, but by increasing the Gravity Dampeners (things that manipulate graviton movement in the book) power, you can survive "decompression" which is the exact moment that your bubble "pops."

By doing the same thing with Phase Involution, you get a similar result.  The universe will eventually reattach you in the same spot if you don't do anything, and Compression Dampener Cannons are very common weapons which fling the target out of the universe.  This is what I mean by PI's violent shoving into PS.  When doing it so suddenly and violently, you can prevent them from activating.  In my book, warp/phase drives were created using dampeners, but far more powerful ones allowed for breaker drives.  I know this is a little convoluted as far as my explanation goes, but simply put: Vasari are masters of PS.  Vasari ship fires a graviton pulse.  Gravity wells become far more than the mines can take and get yanked out of the universe temporarily (not just into phase space, but all the way out) where they can do no harm.  Eventually, the universe wants to reattach the bubbles and they pop back into existence.  For the sake of lore, that is what PI does.

Anyways, you are right about PB's/WC's.  I'll go with PB's as that is a valid point.

And the Vasari AC would have wave cannons only.  Its ability would be to fire a huge volley of fire at enemy ships with its phase cannons.  For lore's sake, the plasma is not just hot plasma, but fusing hydrogen plasma.  Upon impact, it acts as a small supernova and deals AoE damage.  This would also add a big incentive to buy WC upgrades.  I'm working on a way to prevent it from firing at ships within a minimum range, but it is proving difficult.  I'm thinking that by adding in a passive, I might be able to do it, but I'm still working on it...

And yes, we need to come up with proper statistics for them.

Remember the Vasari Destroyer "Invasion" ability? we were discussing instead of making it 'Invasion' as such, we said change the name and make the effect like a massive Wave Cannon Blast that the entire shape of the ship generates and fires at the planet...

sounds like an idea in my opinion, but yeah, just an idea, im cool with a new ship.

as for minimum range... didnt the Flak Ability on the Kol a few updates ago have a minimum range as well as a maximum range?

yeah... unless you can write some sort of new code for the engine to reference for minimum range... i dont think there is any precedent...

as for the PI ability, i can respect your want to bring something of your own into the mod, so im cool. it is, after all, just names. I think its a bit unneccesarily complicated, but im fine with it.

as long as the ability works

do you have any concrete ideas re: the Artillery Cruiser? and will other races get one or no because they have Assault Cruisers?

hey Rez,

Just a note, the Orky doesn't have a suicide button. That's the TEC Argonev.

and Volt, I've looked on AGF. Thinking about joining too.

I am working on a buff that the target would instill on everything in minimum range which would be like a reverse animosity, but I'm still trying to figure out how to make it local so not every single ship's fire is drawn there.  At this point, it is looking bleak, so I may just end up giving it the same firing mechanism as Phase Missile Swarm, but I don't yet know how to make it so it will ony aim forward...  I suppose the other option is to do something completely different...  You would fire a single wave pulse which would explode.  Its just I'm trying to make a volley work and its not looking good...

It depends on how many cruisers the other races have.  That is really what it comes down to.  If the other races have slots for them, then yes, but if not, no.  I would tell you one way or another now, but I don't know what other ships there are in entrenchment.  You'll have to answer that one...

I actually made a little text doc about this.

Basically, in Entrenchment, Advent/TEC have 2 new cruisers each (SB constructor/anti-structure cruiser), while the Vas only get one new cruiser (minelayer)

So, the Advent/TEC have 3 open frigate and 3 open cruiser slots (technically 6 open frigate, as frigate building is over two pages), while the Vasari have 4 open cruiser slots/3 open frigate slots.

Okay, and we are adding Flak Cruisers to all, TT's to all, and a Utility Cruiser to all.  That does leave one slot for the Vasari, so I guess they are the only ones getting it...

Also, who created the binary>text decompiler?  I've been looking for it, but I can't find it, so if you could provide a link, that would be very much appreciated...

there are two-

harpo's sins txt binner (search it on the forums)

and the Dekhranic SoaSE Mod Tool GUI (search it on the forums)

I'm pretty sure harpo's tool can go both ways, and I know Dekhranic can go both ways. harpo's tool doesn't work for me ATM so I use the Dekhranic tool.

Also, check my two posts in the modding forum- HOW DO I- and [MOD IDEAD] Semi-Freeform-Style.

For the first, maybe some answers to be provided if you happen to know; the 2nd, for input.

Also, the Dekhranic tool can operate the ConvertXSI tool from inside it instead of as a command-line utility. I'd get both tools.

Okay, thanks.  The reason I ask is today is the last day I have before school starts up again and I'm creating ability/buff files galore...

You guys will find that a few abilities have been changed, but hopefully to your liking.  Ie: Active Harmonization will receive a nerf in the actual boost, but it will be an AoE which will allow for synergies.

... i never said it did?

ahh, wait, i see. sorry, i was thinking about the Orky cause i was posting about it right before i came here, so my bad...

as for giving other races Artillery Cruisers, we could always make TT's Frigates... there is nothing anywhere that says it has to be a cruiser... in fact i think logically a Troop Transport would be a frigate not a cruiser.

either way... lets just see how the Vasari AC pans out, it may be beneficial for them to have yet another unique unit... though i think it would have to be made even more unique and useful - rather than just being a moving weapons platform - to be worthwhile as a unique unit...

i havent had a chance to look at the Aurora Forums yet, ill get to it tomoz, as its 4 in the morning here...

Yay time zones...

Anyways, yeah, it could be a frigate.  That would mean that we are adding mlnesweepers and TT's to the frigate tab..  I would prefer it be a cruiser, but let's just see how the V AC works first.

is there a tangible difference other than just giving the impression of these ships being more powerful/expensive? or is it just a label?

if its was such that all frigate types were available at the beginning of the game, while cruisers required research, then i would pay more attention to where ships go. but as it stands, with frigates 'needing just as much research as cruisers', i think its just a label, right?

Well, frigates are generally not seen unless zoomed in really far.  When you can see capitals clearly, you can see cruisers easily.  So its really more of a size thing, but that can be adjusted.  TT's would be the largest frigate if that is where we end up putting them.

Also, what are thinking about EadTaes's balance mod?  I was thinking of incorporating many of his ideas on the existing things to balance some of the things we are not changing.  Sure, we won't use everything, but it would give us a starting point.

Anyways, I was thinking about fleet composition in this mod and how the new things we add will be used.

TT's will likely be very few in number as they are good at taking down caps, but that is about it.

Minesweepers will be used in just about every fleet to defend against mines.

Flak Cruisers...  I'm thinking about changing them to Defense Cruisers and giving them "Capital" damage types.  This way, they would be like you suggested, omni-counters.  They are aren't quite caps, but do have the ability to function as something similar as they are superior to HC's in damage.  DC's would have to be in tier 7/8, but would be the end-game unit of choice.

surely thats just based on the size of the model? if you have a 'frigate' as large as a capital, you would be able to see it while zoomed out no?

i havent had a look at it, i didnt think it was quite ready yet, ill have a look later.

speaking of EadTaes... i was speaking to him the other day, and he expressed concerns that some of our ship designs arent very congruent with the styles of each race. I have to agree to a point, but then again, there are some Advent ships that arent very Advent-y, and some Vasari ships that arent very Vasari-y, so i can live with most of what we have... we might just have to keep it in mind more...

Cool

Well, as i understand it, IC originall intended for Scouts to be at the front of fleets and detect mines in time for the fleet to destroy them (much like the leading edge of a wave front), or, at the very least, for a recon fleet of scouts and flak frigs to move in before the main fleet and clear a path... even if it meant suiciding that fleet...

Now, the second plan works somewhat, but the first one definitly doesnt. unless we can ensure Minesweepers are on the edges of a fleet, i can only imagine them being used while micro managing. i can see them flying in ahead of a fleet, clearing a path, tanking it a bit, then having the main fleet arrive last to back them up...

have you got entrenchment yet? i recommend getting it and playing some games against Hard/Unfair AI Fortifiers, so you get a feel of how the mines work. its alot easier than me explaining how it works and you'll get a better feel or the balance.

i have to say: mines are a fantastic addition, but unfortunately it seems they are rather polarised in that they either work or they dont. That is, if you dont have scouts in your fleet (or even if you do and are stupid or unlucky enough to jump your fleet into a concentrated minfield) then minefields will generally decimate a fleet (although ive noticed that late game i tend to just run my fleet through minefields and i take minimal losses... so perhaps a lvl 7-8 tech that increases the damage of mines by alot, to scale with improved hull/armor/shield technology)

on the other hand, if we have a single unit that can enter a minefield and clear out vast swathes of mines before standard defenses can take it out, allowing an enemy fleet to enter without problems, then mines would become totally useless, as no one would spend the huge amounts of resources on something that is so easily countered...

like i said, play some games first, run a fleet of 10 scouts and 15 flak frigs through a minefield and see how badly or how well they fare vs the effectiveness of the minefield, and decide how to go...

but now that i think about it, a late game damage boost is definitly required. Also... you know how the health of ships in sins drops every second as it tallies the DPS done to it? is there another way to tally damage? a more 'real time' instant effect type thing? because one thing i think that happens with mines, is that ships do kamikaze runs through minefields. as they go, they set off mines, which detonate half a second after the ship passes by. sure, it deals damage, but the ship keeps moving, setting off more mines than is optimally necessary to destroy the specific ship. this results in minefields 'drying up' faster than necessary, and makes them very costly to maintain (as it should be, but within reason...). another thing, is that, the longer a minefield gets assaulted and rebuilt, the less effective it is, due to the way the mines are deployed. for some reason, the computer deploys mines funny and ends up leaving parts of the minefield less dense than others, meaning that well travelled paths eventually emerge...

so yeah, like i said, play some games and you'll understand it better.

Cool... though i think the TEC DC may need to be altered a bit to fit that role...

a question, will the Anti-SC weapons also be able to fire on big ships like the Flak Frig? how will it know to fire on SC when they come by? i know you said something about ships targetting their most effecient target by damage type... but if the ASC weapons are effective vs SC, wont they be less effective vs big ships?

but yeah, im very cool with them being omni-counters

Well, I was thinking of making mines cheaper and dealing more damage anyways...  But yeah, that is interesting..

Fleet+Scout vs Mine: Fleet+Scout wins

Fleet vs Mines: Mines win

Well, that would make my life less enjoyable...  I hate having scouts in my fleet.  By the end of the game, I don't use scouts but rather culture/DE's/Clairvoyance (I play advent a lot) to do my scouting...  It is funny though to watch the AI get pummeled by an entire system worth of Deliverance Engines on autocast.  Oh, the countless schadenfreude you can use on the AI.

I'm looking into changing the way that capital damage effects SC.  Currently they reduce a capital's damage by 70%, but I don't think that there is a capital that actually can target SC, or at least if it does, it doesn't do much.  I was wanting to change it, discover which ones do deal damage to SC if any, and then deactivate their ability to do so.  This would give defense vessels the opportunity to do good damage against SC as well as against other things.

like i said, not necesarily... late game i usually just ignore the mines, and my fleet tanks it with minimal losses, if any...

which is why i recommended the upgrade.

i usually just chuck in 5-10 scouts 1. for the extra damage type and 2. for the anti mine stuff, but meh, its not that important... im sure we could give LF a similar ability to the scouts... though it would rip up IC's vision for the game...

really, if you just put the one scout in your fleet, you can see where the mines are and avoid the worst parts of it... idn, lets have a look at it... if we want minesweepers to replace scouts as the anti-mine ship, then we need to make sure we dont completely nerf mines... the scouts ability is good in that it detects the mines, but you need something else to destroy it... a minesweeper that detects and destroys with a large area AoE could be OP

and i know i recommended the idea, i just want to stress how precarious the balance on this thing is...

Well, given what I've heard from other members of the community, we can't make it worse. 

Now if Stardock would respond to my problem about getting entrenchement...