TheRezonator TheRezonator

A change to Capital Ships - Research Required? (BACK ON TOPIC)

A change to Capital Ships - Research Required? (BACK ON TOPIC)

Making Caps more powerful without destroying the early game

So i was just thinking about carrier caps, and how they are largely useless (and, seperately, how other cap ships could become more powerful).

I read one post that proposed (in addition to new abilities/weapons etc) Carriers carrying many more squadrons of SC initially, and ultimately leveling up until it had like 12 or 15 squadrons at level 10. Then alot of people said (correctly) that that would kill the early game because there would be no counter to it. Everyone would have to choose the carrier first, or just rush and tech up to carriers and flak super quick.

This is a very valid point. But the idea was nevertheless quite good, and unless you turn it into another Utility Cap or Battleship Cap, I personally can't think of any way to make it more useful. After all, its a Carrier Cap, its supposed to be very strong SC combat.

So. Im getting slightly off topic here. What i was thinking is, atm, all Cap Ships are available from Day One. However, if we made it that certain capital ships (say the carrier, the dreadnought and the utility/support caps) required research before they could be constructed, then those caps could be made much more powerful without throwing off game balance. For instance, you could only bring out the Carrier Cap once Flak and/or Light Carriers are researched, or even just at the same time.

This would also open the door for a few things:

1. Early game caps (lets say the battleship and the coloniser for the moment) can have their powers and abilities made much more powerful as they level so as to scale better with the more powerful later game cap ships. A lvl 10 Kol lvl 3 Gauss Railgun Blast (sic) could punch right through a LF or LRF etc, and be bery powerful vs heavier ships, for instance.

2. Each race can be given a weapon equivalent to the Missile Barrage, some level 6 ability that will only come out mid-late game once enemy fleets will be more likely to survive it. Also, standard weapons and abilities can be boosted to really reflect the role of a Capital Ship.

3. As an alternative to the first point, the existing early game caps (lets say Kol and Akkan etc) can be left as is, and new caps can be added to the menu with greater firepower, speed and abilities etc, and once researched (lets say tier 5-7? maybe both Civilian and Military research required?) will be available. This was you can have some smaller 'destroyer' type caps, which act basically as weapons platforms and give basic abilities (colonisation, targeting computer, basic interrupt abilities, heavy weapons (gaus railgun) etc), and then late game bring out the REAL capital ships, with much greater/more powerful/more useful(?) abilities and, of course, greater firepower.

I know this sounds like another quest for Super-Cap ships. I assure you, its not. I just think caps atm give you a little bit of use with their abilities until someone focus fires on them and they evaporate. And i also think carrier caps need to be given a place to belong. something they do exclusively. perhaps co-ordinating the fleet (sorta) and giving extended range, or better mobility, or higher damage output, etc etc something fitting and useful... rather than missile platforms that get left behind anyway

So. These are some ideas. I know at times the community can get iffy with big changes, so I just hope this isnt too radical.

103,303 views 74 replies
Reply #51 Top

The back engines i just drew there to make and end the ship is actuly a bit longer has a rear flight deck unde the rail gun and the engines look nothign like that. But it does in part resemble a KOL as for the KOL is the first purpace built warship of the TEC. All of the other ships were civilian craft modified into combat ships. So I brlivr if TEC were to start creating new ships they would trya nd copy off a succesful desing. The front blocky section is bigger/larger then the rest of the ship to represent the extra armor that will give it 50% reduction in damage from the front as me and volt discused. Advent and Vasari ships won't have this frontal block feature since Vasari will use a smaller version of their SB deflector and Advent extra sheild emiters.

And yes it'S TEC takign a ship they had and modifed it, or a ship in developemnt who sudently underwent radical changes. It looks alot like the destroyer I am also drawing with looks liek a KOL and a JAV combined. So for lore story ti could be a 2nd destroyer in production but then Advent and Vasari rolled lancers out into combat and TEC modified in a hurry their new destroyer desing into a lancer desing using allready existing technologies and straphing them onto the hull. It's why the rail gun looks like it was bolted on the top of the ship.

The arm like things are just that arms So that the auto cannons can fire forward because fo the super extra armor on the front. So they are all that stick out from the frontal armor when you look at it from the front.

Reply #52 Top

Ok... but erm.. I can do this...

Ultimately, mine will look much like a Kol as well, but I'm just saying, that it won't look like it did...  I messed with the model today just to see what it would look like with the new ideas, and it won't look like the Orgov.  I assure you of that.

 

Also, I've drawn ships in my spare time for my book...  They are just rough sketches, but there is one in there, the "Hercules" that also has a large buttress on the front of it...

 

In short though, once all is said and done, I think both ideas could work, so its a matter of opinion which people would have to vote on in the other (still nonexistant) thread...



Oh, and I am currently drawing the sketch.  Its really rough, but ought to give the general idea behind it...

Reply #53 Top

Cool can't wait. I'll keep working on mine as well. In the end a combination fo feature from both will probably give us the perfect ship.

Reply #54 Top

ahh, i see (sorry, im such a modding noob). you actually gave me an idea in a later paragraph, you said you would implement a unique weapon mount for each ability, and mentioned the cannon for MB (MB = Missile Barrage?) first, i thought the MB was fired from the missile tubes to the left of the ship (if looking at it from above or behind) second, though, you gave me an idea, the Seige Planet ability uses that cannon to fire on the planet. when it fires, there is a massive muzzle flash and you see a small red dot flying towards the planet. That is another visual you could possibly alter for our own needs...

I also was thinking that the laser could be fired from the same place as the cannon, but after giving it some more thought, I have decided that it will be an individual weapon

so the laser is moving or the railgun? but yeah, in general i think each weapon should have its own mount (unless like in the case of the MB, where the marza can fire missiles normally, or as part of an ability, in which case there is no reason not to use the existing weapon mounts)

i do definitly agree that mixing ideas will most likely give the best result in the end =)

oh, EadTaes... do you know of anyone who could do model skinning for us? Volt and i were talking and we havent got a skinner... and now i feel like some psycho murder talking about skinning things... =P

Reply #55 Top

The railgun is staying in place and the heavy laser/beam will be moved above it...

 

In general, a combination of ideas always works out better.  That is the reason people work in teams..

Reply #56 Top

That is the reason people work in teams..

No, thats so there is someone to blame when things go wrong =P

Reply #57 Top

ahh.. that is true too...  I don't know if you guys get the same commercials as us but in one of Direct TV's commercials...

 

"Let's have Blamestorming Session.  I'll start.  I'd like to blame Eileen."

 

Reply #58 Top

Anyways, here is an updated model (with wings!)

 

 

Reply #59 Top

Hey, great models! i really like the improvements.

in the second picture though there is a surface i cant quite identify, its on the bottom of the ship... another wing?

Reply #60 Top

Still need to move the rail gun away from the center I say. Oh also form what I know udnerstand the Sins engine only accept quads ans triangles. But I see a pentagram. Near the front of the ship.

Reply #61 Top

@Rezo:

Thanks.  That surface is an axial vent.  I have an idea for a particle effect which when firing the cannon, exhaust is shot out of it...  If not, it looks cool from a side view...  But you are right, it is hard to see in these pictures...

 

@Ead:

Why?  These things have axial guns...  That means that they should run straight through them...  That is the point behind the lancers...  It is a gun plus engines...

Reply #62 Top

Because it still looks like a tune. And Axial gun doesn't mean it need to be the center of the ship. It mena it eed to be aling and perma fixed into the frontal direction of the ship. So you cna place the gun were ever as long as it is pointing in the rigth direction.

Right now i'll be honest it looks betetr then before. Before it looked like a tube. Now it looks like a tube with wings. So still looks liek a tube only with extras.

Reply #63 Top

Okay...  Well the way it is now, it is permanently attached to the ship as it is the same primitive as the fuesalage...

 

Like I said before, I can't do many of the additions until I get a good response on one of my questions in the modding forum...  Until I can figure out how to do symetry, I won't be able to duplicate complex shapes and thus won't be able to complete it...

Reply #64 Top

@Rezo:

Thanks. That surface is an axial vent. I have an idea for a particle effect which when firing the cannon, exhaust is shot out of it... If not, it looks cool from a side view... But you are right, it is hard to see in these pictures...

yeah, fair enough... sound interesting we will have to have a look at it.

i was thinking about when the main gun fires, all other weapons and engines go offline right?

i reckon (if its possible) either having the ship be pushed backwards when its firing from a stand still, or, if it fires while moving, to give it a bit of rapidly slowing momentum, to sort of look like the engines have been cut off...

im more in favor of the second one, i dont think recoil is terribly necessary

@ EadTaes: i think it looks pretty good mate... maybe do some more work on your design and give us a more refined sketch so we can see what you are thinking?

and remember, we can always do the whole gun bolted on thing for the vasari... i mean, sure, they are technlogically advanced... but where exactly are they pulling new designs from? or even the advent, im sure you could imagine them building some freakish horror of a ship, (due to the taboo experiements they perform)... something that looks sort of like a Solanus Ajudicator, but a bit fatter on the Z-axis, more organic looking... with a big fat gun strapped to the bulge on top... something like that

i just had an idea pop into my head for the Advent Lancer... it would look sort of like an octopus...  but with 6 arms instead of 8. 4 of the arms arch up and away from the center (it would look like an octopus as it is reaching up to 'kick' away) Each of the 4 arms would have a plasma cannon on it. the other two arms im not sure... they could be angled towards the rear of the ship (where the tip of an octopus' head would be) just for appearance sake, and/or they could have the 2 light lasers mounted on them. the super heavy beam weapon would come out of the center of the ship, where an octopus' mouth/beak would be...

idn, if just popped into my head, it needs tweaking

Reply #65 Top

Yeah... all systems go offline...  We might be able to pull the code from repulse to give it recoil which would give it the appearance of firing something REALLY powerful...

 

Perhaps you could have four arms forwards which would be heavy plasma cannons.  The other two would be angled backwards and would act as containment generators for the engines and could possible have engines built into their tips...  As for the mouth/beak area, I am assuming that this would be the cannon itself...

Reply #66 Top

yep, thats correct

and the secondary beam cannon (like the TEC secondary laser that is currently mounted above the main gun) could be mounted on the same surface as the main weapon, so it looks alot like the TEC lancer atm... i know thats really unimaginiative... but the way i picture it... there arent too many other surfaces to put it...

unless... we create a blocky swept-forward 'wing', mounted on the top or bottom of the ship, it should look at least like a right angle triangle with the short side pointing towards the front of the ship (with the guns), but i think it would look better if it was swept even further forward than 90 degrees. and then we mount the secondary beam cannon on that wing =)

Reply #67 Top

Hmm.. well.. I'd say we need to work on one thing at a time for now...

Reply #68 Top

absolutely...

also, i forgot to say... on the TEC lancer, behind the bridge, there is a section of hull that is sunken in? did you have any plans for that hole?

because if not i was thinking you could have exhaust come from there as well as at the front near where that weird wing thing on the bottom of the ship is.

i think it would just look cool =)

Reply #69 Top

Yeah... I'll have an antenna system back in there...

Reply #70 Top

Hey i have been looking for the right place to ask some noob questions, hope u guys dont mind.

I wanna just change a few things about the game like weapon types on capitals and allowing all starbases to move. I been reading through Silent's introduction for modding, but the entity files when open for entrenchment 1.03 dont look like the same format as his and i'm lost. I downloaded the forge tools and tried to use the convert data, but i dont get how it works. It just blinks like a dos mode and shuts down sometimes cashing windows explorer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Reply #71 Top

download forge tools.  That will have text files.  Currently, your computer is trying to decrypt something it does not have the encryption key to.

As for crashing, there is a dll missing... Something is telling me 533 for some odd reason...

Reply #72 Top

Ok i downloaded forge tools and now have the text files. After i changed what i wanted to, do i just copy it to the related folder? Or should it be converted or something? If so how?

Reply #73 Top

please send me private messages on the matter, rather than going off topic here please.

Reply #74 Top

okay, so, until i or someone else moves the current theme of this post to the modding forum, we are officially back on topic

so, basically, the idea was to release (using the TEC as an example) the Kol and Akkan at the beginning of the game for immediate deployment and use, while requiring more specialised caps (Carrier, Dreadnought, Utility) be researched before they are deployed.

This would enable certain caps to be buffed in terms of usefulness, power and effectiveness *cough* SOVA *cough*

For instance, using a carrier cap as an example. What would you expect of a capital ship dedicated to SC? Many more SC than any other ship? SC buffing abilities? Flak weapons/abilities? so on and so forth.

At the moment, Sova SC capacity maxes out at 7 squadrons. Okay, for a single ship, thats not bad, but compared to the relatively cheap, mass produce-able, difficult-to-kill* Light Carrrier, meh, 7 squadrons is rather paltry.

(* By difficult to kill i mean to take out 7 Squadrons worth of LC based SC, you need to destroy 4 ships, as opposed to FF-ing on a single, moderately armed, armored and shielded Capital ship)

One solution to increase Sova effectiveness (in addition to a re-work/re-design of its abilities) is to greatly boost its initial and potentially its maxed SC capacity. The issue is, that the Carrier Cap would emerge as the only choice for your first cap, since very few militias could even put up a fight, with only a few squadrons plus frigate support early game, and enemy empires cannot even do that unless they rush hangar defenses/flak frigs/carriers

For this reason, i suggest that each capital ship (carrier, dreadnought, utility) be made unavailable until appropriate research is done. (it would also help prevent MB spam, and could potentially create the opportunity to give each race its own fleet destroying ability)

Appropriate research could entail: Hangar Defense and/or Flak frigs and/or LC (perhaps some sort of armor or shield etc research as well?) for a Carrier Cap (which itself would have to be researched like any other 'prototype'). Armor Research and/or Long Range Weapons research and/or Planetary Bombardment Research and/or Seige Frig reasearch for the Dreadnought. Improved AM regeneration and/or Shield/Armor Research and/or Hull Regen Research and/or Utility B Cruiser (i.e. Cielo, Domina, Overseer) for the Utility Cruiser.

Anyway, that should get you up to speed. Please post your ideas