Zechnophobe

Shamblers and Yeti's aren't good enough

Shamblers and Yeti's aren't good enough

Overview:

  • Their stats are not necessarily any better than nightcrawlers or spirits
  • They cost significant mana to keep up compared to a 200 mana ward or FREE
  • You can only get a very limited number of them
  • Shamblers are a prerequisite for too many skills for them to be anything but 'great'.
  • Yeti's have no synergy with Sedna's play style.



Further thoughts on each main point:

Their stats are not necessarily any better than nightcrawlers or spirits


Minion Hit points Damage  
Spirits 630 50
Nightcrawlers 730 20
Yetis 810 30
Shamblers 675 30

Yetis have a slightly larger number of hit points, but not much more damage (per yeti). Shamblers have the second lowest hit points of any minion. Considering the cost, and maximum amount possible, of each minion type, the shamblers and yeti's should be significantly greater. As it is, it is very VERY hard to justify the shambler or yeti skills when other minions easily defeat them.

They cost significant mana to keep up compared to a 200 mana ward or FREE


Yetis: Cost per yeti at each rank. 550/375/475/287.5

Shamblers: cost per, at each rank.  450/312.5/312.5/213.25

The biggest hits are at the first rank of the ability. Compared to a single rank in oaks spirit ward, or 0 points in Erebus' conversion aura, they have to pay a massive 450 or 550 mana for just a single summon, where as oak spends 200 for 3 (or more!) and Erebus gets his for free.Even at it's best (Rank 4) the effect is still significantly more costly than either of the other two, and doesn't grant units that make up for the plethora of 'weaker' summons you get for basically no mana. Heck, even the spirit ward at rank 4 has a +400 armor aura, and can generate dozens of spirits, if placed well. The cost to effect ratio is way out of wack.

 

You can only get a very limited number of them


In addition to the general mana problem of summoning these minions, you also just don't have that many. Even if the stats were generally better, it is hard to ignore that having 10 spirits is much better than 4 shamblers. You get more value from enhancements to minions, like damage upgrades. At level 4, a +10 minion damage item gives you 100 more minion damage with Oak, but only 40 more with Sedna or QoT. Also, neither of these two has to go out of their way to replenish their minion number. So while Oak can have 10 minions at a time, in the middle of a battlefield with a ward in it, they are quickly replaced if they die.

 

Shamblers are a prerequisite for too many skills for them to be anything but 'great'.


Specifically talking about Queen of Thorns and shamblers for a moment. Shamblers have an additional problem, that extends out into the way people 'build' the queen. That is, that she has two and a half skills that are dependant on you having points in shamblers. Even if shamblers were a valid way to play her, the whole system is significantly worsened by the fact that if she chooses not to use shamblers, he skill tree suddenly becomes significantly more narrow.  Even worse, if you think shamblers are weak, and so is Uproot, you end up with literally a 3 skill tree that she has to max out. No other character has so many skills dependant on another. In fact, most characters have skills that synergize instead, meaning they get better in the presence of other skills.  That's a good thing.  Making them dependant on other skills, though, is a bad thing.

 

Yeti's have no synergy with Sedna's play style.


While shamblers have their problems, One thing they have going for them is synergizing with how the queen plays (aoe, debuffs, etc).  Yeti's don't even do this.  Sure they get a bit stronger, but what value do they really have with Sedna? As a strong support caster, she really doesn't want to waste mana on a weak summon, or really any summon. Putting a yeti in combat with the idea that you can heal it is simply ridiculous, since you could be in combat, with greater armor, and doing much more damage.

 

 

Final Thoughts:

Decrease QoT's skill dependency on shamblers, and make Sedna's synergize with her play more.  Make them both more mana efficient, or make them very obviously a strong assistant. Heck, even just having more minion buffing items that could somehow benefit them more than other minions, would be nice.  Whatever happens, these DG's will have at the least a more limited skill tree until their minions are brought up to par.


Thanks for reading.

21,668 views 43 replies
Reply #26 Top

Pounce damage is front loaded, which is *ALWAYS* better than slow, continuous damage.  You can pounce and run away.  You can pounce someone before *they* run away.  It interrupts.  It has super low cooldown.  It can't be frost nova'd or stunned or killed by aoe.

Rank 1 pounce does all of the above.

Let's pretend level 4 rank 1 yeti rank 1 pounce Sedna duels rank 2 pounce Sedna, and they each have 2 other skills.  They can each pounce each other, they can each run away, they can each do pretty much whatever they want.  They certainly aren't going to kill each other as one will always run away first.  Since yeti damage over time can keep up with the 7 second cooldown of 1 extra rank pounce anyway, it will be the high pouncer who runs out of mana.  Those 2 other skills points go into aura and healspeed most likely.  Combined with the obligatory 2 priests, I will heal through your pounce damage without even casting a full heal (which I have yet to skill into).  If somehow I'm completely wrong about the AA damage and there's actually a chance of getting killed by this pouncing, replace 1 skill from healspeed into heal.  Now you pounce, I heal.  I spend less mana, and stay at full health.  Meanwhile, my yetis are still out there whereas your pounce was completely useless.  I'm actually outdamaging you, especially per mana spent.

Let's look at it from another angle.  Is god strength good for a rook?  50 damage...hmmm 2 yetis x 30 damage damn I can't do this in my head but I think it's better than rook right?  God forbid Sedna gets buffed and receive 8 yetis or something insane with 50 damage at 400 mana so a single initial attack would be 400 damage.  Wait a minute:

Yetis : 1710 HP, 51 DMG

They're already that good!  If you decrease the mana and/or increase the count, take cover.  Okay, not entirely accurate, armor will likely cut those values in half at end game, where pounce will still do a "solid" 1/6th of a player's hps (-25% damage however for shield of awesome or whatever it's called).  An amount that will be insta healed by priests unless you picked up counter heal because you have infinite skill points so even though you're implying max the lolskills you somehow fit in a max aura and max speed and max heal and max pounce and max silence?

EDIT:

The bottom line with Sedna is that Heal > Pounce >> Yetis.  If you are spending any points in the Yeti line, those are points you're not spending in the Heal or Pounce lines.

You then mention healing being a primary function of Sedna in a team battle.  Where does pouncing fit into all of this?  How can you safely execute a pounce with the range you have and 1. survive 2. not have to waste heal on yourself 3. have time because you didn't have to heal your teammate 4. have the pounce accomplish something meaningful 5. have enough mana to waste instead of on a heal 6. have one extra skill point make the difference between effective and non-effective pounce that couldn't have gone into yetis because 800 damage was already enough.  Multiply 1-6 to get the chance that it made sense to get that higher rank pounce.

Reply #27 Top

Rank 1 pounce does all of the above

Except kill someone with 600 hp.

Let's pretend level 4 rank 1 yeti rank 1 pounce Sedna duels rank 2 pounce Sedna, and they each have 2 other skills.  They can each pounce each other, they can each run away, they can each do pretty much whatever they want.  They certainly aren't going to kill each other as one will always run away first.  Since yeti damage over time can keep up with the 7 second cooldown of 1 extra rank pounce anyway, it will be the high pouncer who runs out of mana.  Those 2 other skills points go into aura and healspeed most likely.  Combined with the obligatory 2 priests, I will heal through your pounce damage without even casting a full heal (which I have yet to skill into).  If somehow I'm completely wrong about the AA damage and there's actually a chance of getting killed by this pouncing, replace 1 skill from healspeed into heal.  Now you pounce, I heal.  I spend less mana, and stay at full health.  Meanwhile, my yetis are still out there whereas your pounce was completely useless.  I'm actually outdamaging you, especially per mana spent.

This is so loaded I don't know what to say.  Sedna mirror match?  Try some real examples.  You know, with team mates, and other heroes.  For example - 2 Sednas pouncing 1 target (a gank) is infinitely better than a swarm of Yetis descending upon the fleeing target.

Let's look at it from another angle.  Is god strength good for a rook?

I get God Strength last.  Plus autoattacking is free.  It's also one point per 50 damage.  How many points do you need for those Yetis again?

You then mention healing being a primary function of Sedna in a team battle.  Where does pouncing fit into all of this?

Pouncing is damage.  Healing is healing.  You can get both.  Getting Yetis instead of Pounce reduces your damage.  Getting Yetis instead of healing increases your damage at the cost of the healing which is more important.  That's why no one gets Yetis and will continue to not get Yetis.

How can you safely execute a pounce with the range you have and 1. survive 2. not have to waste heal on yourself 3. have time because you didn't have to heal your teammate 4. have the pounce accomplish something meaningful 5. have enough mana to waste instead of on a heal 6. have one extra skill point make the difference between effective and non-effective pounce that couldn't have gone into yetis because 800 damage was already enough.  Multiply 1-6 to get the chance that it made sense to get that higher rank pounce.

Step 1. Pounce

Step 2. Heal

Step 3. Pounce again when cooldown finishes.

Step 4. Heal again when cooldown finishes.

Step 5. Repeat as necessary as mana permits.

 

Reply #28 Top

I think by now we can stop debating with Seanner about this. I don't see how else we can demonstrate, aside from a real match, that Yetis is Sedna's worst skill and needs some love.

If he wants to believe that Yetis are good, well, that's his opinion, just don't play with him on your team. LOL

Reply #30 Top

This is so loaded I don't know what to say.  Sedna mirror match?  Try some real examples.  You know, with team mates, and other heroes.  For example - 2 Sednas pouncing 1 target (a gank) is infinitely better than a swarm of Yetis descending upon the fleeing target.

1 target is not obliged to wait for Sednas to approach to basically melee range.


I get God Strength last.  Plus autoattacking is free.  It's also one point per 50 damage.  How many points do you need for those Yetis again?

You're kidding!  1 pt in yetis gives 2 yetis x 30 damage = 60 damage.  I guess when I left off the number of the calculation you screwed it up and got a different number.  Yes, 2x30=60.


Step 1. Pounce

Step 2. Heal

etc...

Your opponent is afk?  Where are his abilities and how do they fit into this?  You go ahead and pounce the invincible Oak while 10 spirits attack you.

And to the person who says nobody can anymore argue with me, I forewarn you this is what happened in the DoW forums.  Ir0nclad, a top player and former WC3 expert, posted a strategy guide with attached replay involving a space marine contain with heavy bolters and snipers after a fast armory in tier1.  There was the mass bandwagon +1 karma equivalent there too, so I immediately jumped in and pointed out how flawed of a strategy it is to buy a heavy bolter instead of a marine when they do the same dps except you receive no hps on a weapon upgrade AND you have to purchase the armory for precious early power resources...an extra marine is straight up better than a HB.  He also failed to get a force commander for 7 minutes, to which I appended no less than 6 thousand exclamation points to emphasize how incredibly awful that was..and would've been destroyed by an AI opponent that typically makes mass marines!  I continued with how mass marines are in fact quite powerful and, with a force commander, can take down listening posts very fast and quickly win.  Of course, everybody disagreed and referenced Ir0nclad's skill and history and the fact that just because marines may work vs the AI (which I didn't actually say, I said the AI would beat him with that, which should be nothing less than hilarious, though mass marines will beat the AI's mass marines because their build order and capping strategy is faulty) or blah blah....anyway fast forward a couple weeks and the forums have posts like "nerf marines" and "mass marines imba" and no strategy because all you have to do is mass marines...

I hate resorting to I'm right because I say I'm right, but since you've stated you aren't going to argue with me anymore, all I can do is mention the above, and the next one:

Back when everybody was claiming that warlocks sucked--VERY LONG TIME AGO--I was winning nearly every world PvP whether I was ganked or vice versa, and tearing up battlegrounds.  Why?  Because chain fearing with DoTs is completely overpowered.  The obviousness of the strategy is what amazes me, that people didn't figure it out apparently even though I didn't even start playing until years after WoW came out.  I dare not say I invented chain fearing, yet somehow they thought warlocks couldn't compete in PvP.  Since then times have changed and between trinkets and skill changes and nerfs and buffs, who knows where balance is--I stopped playing.  But anyone who's played WoW knows how ridiculous warlocks can be.  I guess the earlier days had people stuck on lolnuke with shadowbolt and whining that they couldn't outdps a rogue on them (no kidding).  I mean, a nuke...nothing beats a nuke??  Lolpounce ftw!  North Korea ftw!

Reply #31 Top

Sorry kid, I'm not really in to Pokemon.

Reply #32 Top

Just to state the obvious: Demigod is a game about map control, not killing other demigods. Yetis are good because, combined with sedna's uberpriests and other minions, they're pretty much unkillable (since they can be resummoned, not too difficult once you get mana gear) unless you kill Sedna.

 

Yeti builds are the ultimate in staying power. As long as you can keep Sedna alive (which isn't hard given that you have uberpriests, heal, high hp/s regen, and giant tanks to fight for you), you can stay in the fight. It's a strange playstyle to get used to, but it's definitely viable.

Reply #33 Top

Yeti's are a bad choice because Sedna has so many other, better skills.

QoT minions are fine. Remember shamblers are ranged and AOE, so the concentrated drain they can do over a battle is quite good if you focus on damage output items. I think the problem is people try to do too much with QoT. Pick a build; AoE and Shield + Goddess of Thorns or Minions and shield IV + keep your flower closed the enitre battle.

I do think Shamblers IV is a waste of a skill point though. If you lose 4 shamblers at once you did something wrong. If you lose a couple, fine, but don't pay 975 mana to build 4 when 2 replacements for 625 will do to fill out your squad again, and dont wait until all 4 are dead before replacing. 

 

Reply #34 Top

I think the should be buffed

Reply #35 Top

Your opponent is afk?  Where are his abilities and how do they fit into this?  You go ahead and pounce the invincible Oak while 10 spirits attack you.

You got the order wrong then.  You heal when the Oak is invincible.  You pounce when he's not.  I'd think this is elementary but....

And to the person who says nobody can anymore argue with me, I forewarn you this is what happened in the DoW forums.

Back when everybody was claiming that warlocks sucked--VERY LONG TIME AGO--I was winning nearly every world PvP whether I was ganked or vice versa, and tearing up battlegrounds.

Holy crap this guy is some kind of internet superstar or something.  We were fools to ever think he was wrong!

Reply #36 Top

We have no chance to survive IV, we must make our time.

Apparently the reign of the Yetis is upon us.

Reply #37 Top

Where does penitence fit into this whole heal strategy?  Surge of faith?

If this argument were reversed, you'd be winning with Oak vs Sedna because I'd have mistimed my silence or something.

So tell me, when you play your clone with that matchup, which DG wins?

Reply #38 Top

Seanner I got to say you managed to completely destroy any credibility of your arguments :)

 

I think Yetis need a buff, however, I think Sedna can be validly played as a minion general still in the right conditions. There are some positives to the build, however an assassin build will always be preferred by a team. I think it is slightly flawed that heal is seen as so powerful, 1500 HPs towards the end game is not really a lot, Reg can crit that in one shot with Ashkandor. If a team mate is being alpha'd then the heal does very little.

Playing Sedna front line should really rely on stacking HP and armour, however, if you go Pounce and Heal then you have to stack at least 2 mana items.

Heal is really at its most powerful early to mid game. By End game it is like most skills, fairly useless compared to Auto Attack.

Reply #39 Top

Where does penitence fit into this whole heal strategy?  Surge of faith?

If this argument were reversed, you'd be winning with Oak vs Sedna because I'd have mistimed my silence or something.

So he has 10 spirits, invincibility shield, Pentitence and Surge of Faith?  What kind of mythical Oak is this?

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Seanner27, reply 5

Your opponent is afk?  Where are his abilities and how do they fit into this?  You go ahead and pounce the invincible Oak while 10 spirits attack you.

I was under the assumption that we were talking about attacking a non-invincible enemy? Because there is no Yeti build that would be able to damage a shielded Oak either.

Also, while Yeti stats are not completely horrible, it's mainly their pathfinding that's the problem. With Pounce you can go anywhere you want and not get stuck, but Yetis have to find their way around grunts and other minions.

Quoting Seanner27, reply 5

And to the person who says nobody can anymore argue with me, blah blah...

My point was that you obviously feel quite solid about your belief that Yetis are good, and that it doesn't sound like you'd be convinced by any of our arguments, so a debate would be moot.

Reply #41 Top

penitence, surge of faith, invinc, 10 spirits (calculating....calculating....) = 7 skill points

very mythical Oak indeed, especially as by level 10 he will have 3 extra

Please do answer the question though.  When you fight yourself Oak vs Sedna, who wins?  I won't be back until Monday but I already have the clever reply prepared...

Reply #42 Top

I won't be back until Monday but I already have the clever reply prepared...

 

Quick, please Stardock, delete the thread :p

 

When you fight yourself Oak vs Sedna, who wins?

 

I find it pretty difficult to fight myself, however, I would maintain that the better player wins. This game is pretty well balanced as it is, some DGs are harder to play than others. In relation to the topic, I think a minion centric Oak would win against a minion centric Sedna.

The Spirits and the Oak buff will far out DPS Sedna and her minions, assuming they all just focus fire on each other. Mainly because Spirits will be hitting Sedna, while the Yetis will be wailing on some random minotaur.

Reply #43 Top

penitence, surge of faith, invinc, 10 spirits (calculating....calculating....) = 7 skill points

Oh so it's level 1 pentitence, level 1 surge, a 2 sec shield and no damage autoattack boost Oak?  Yeah I'm not worried.  My Sedna has level 3 Pounce and Level 2 Heal.  No problem.

 

Just stop the theorycrafting.

he Spirits and the Oak buff will far out DPS Sedna and her minions, assuming they all just focus fire on each other. Mainly because Spirits will be hitting Sedna, while the Yetis will be wailing on some random minotaur.

Another good point.  The Yetis autoattack suffers from all the same bugs the heroes do due to bad pathing and randomly losing target.  The spirits have no such issues, probably because the losing target is caused by pathing issues and spirits have none.