Populous in EWOM, how exactly do you want it?

Frogboy mentioned Populous

3D engines for doing very very nasty things to the game world when you have enough magic -- think Populous


To me it sounds like either one of the following:
1.    Magic that uses essence create/destroy map terrain
OR 2.    Map builder UI shows up allow gamer create/destroy map terrain tile & tile.   Cost is paid by essence.

The question is how powerful you want?  In good old Populous, you can sprout a volcano under your ememy’s city to destroy it.

What kind of effects you want?

It also sounds like some variation of material physics may exist for the game.

35,503 views 51 replies
Reply #1 Top

As powerful as possible, but not without cost: I want to be able to sacrifice half my essence, and sink an entire continent, etc. Having a mapeditor UI in the game itself would be WIERD, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.....

Reply #2 Top

Sounds like the "Ideas for global mayhem magic" thread.

But I'm with Scoutdog, although in relation to the OP, I don't think I'd want a in-game 'map editor' that spends essence.

But yeah, general Poulous-level magic. Raising and sinking of land. Earthquakes. Tsunamis. Raising Volcanos underneath the feet of my enemy's city.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 2
Sounds like the "Ideas for global mayhem magic" thread.

But I'm with Scoutdog, although in relation to the OP, I don't think I'd want a in-game 'map editor' that spends essence.

But yeah, general Poulous-level magic. Raising and sinking of land. Earthquakes. Tsunamis. Raising Volcanos underneath the feet of my enemy's city.

What he said.


It also sounds like some variation of material physics may exist for the game.

I'm having trouble following the reasoning behind that conclusion. Being able to alter the world through magic does not imply the existence of material physics.

Reply #4 Top

Yeah, the two are actually quite different: terrein types, by my understanding, have little to do with any part of the graphics engine (aside from the obvious look of the square itself): units and generally buildings too look the same on ice, sand, grass, etc. The only part of this that could be involved with material physics is if the terraforming was governed by realistic geological principals, which I think would make it a bit less fun.

Reply #5 Top

I like spells wrecking havoc on terrain and such.   In theory a lot of 2D work (and I mean a LOT) could mimic what possibilities exist in a 3D world.

I don't really see how he used that example to explain why it wasn't MoM2... but whatever.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 3

It also sounds like some variation of material physics may exist for the game.
I'm having trouble following the reasoning behind that conclusion. Being able to alter the world through magic does not imply the existence of material physics.

Populous spell can be done in at least 2 ways (maybe there are more ways).


Old way:  Cast a spell, terrain A is switched to terrain B, tile by tile as defined by the spell.  The graphics engine represents this change.  For example, a new hill is created by elevating a hill’s height across many land tiles.  The area affected is defined by the spell.   Another example, a spell start a forest fire, the spell has to tell how the fire is spread tile by tile.


Material physics way:  Cast a spell, material contained in the tile is changed/added/removed.    Material physics engine then determine the materialistic result of such change. The graphics engine then represents this result.  For example, tons of soil is dumped on 1 or more tile.  The semi-liquid soil will spread to surrounding according to the physics engine.  A new hill will then be formed.  How high the hill is depends on how much soil is dumped by the spell.   Another example, a Fireball spell is cast to a forest; the material physics engine will know how to handle fire with the material of wood.

Of course, this new way is more complicated to program & run.  But fire can spread regardless whether the fire is started by a fireball spell or campfire; and the hill may be still submerged if the spell is cast into the ocean.

The old way requires scripting spell by spell.  The newer way requires adding functions on how to handle various material interactions.   If Populous like spell is truly moddable, I’ll prefer the newer way.  It feels more OO, less hard-code like.

Quoting landisaurus, reply 5
...  I don't really see how he used that example to explain why it wasn't MoM2... but whatever.

Landisaurus, are u referring to me?  Don't understand.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Climber, reply 6

Old way:  Cast a spell, terrain A is switched to terrain B, tile by tile as defined by the spell.  The graphics engine represents this change.  For example, a new hill is created by elevating a hill’s height across many land tiles.  The area affected is defined by the spell.   Another example, a spell start a forest fire, the spell has to tell how the fire is spread tile by tile.


Material physics way:  Cast a spell, material contained in the tile is changed/added/removed.    Material physics engine then determine the materialistic result of such change. The graphics engine then represents this result.  For example, tons of soil is dumped on 1 or more tile.  The semi-liquid soil will spread to surrounding according to the physics engine.  A new hill will then be formed.  How high the hill is depends on how much soil is dumped by the spell.   Another example, a Fireball spell is cast to a forest; the material physics engine will know how to handle fire with the material of wood.

While the Material Physics way would definitely be a new twist and maybe pretty cool, it wouldn't just be more complicated to program and run, it would be a bitch to program and run. Asking havoc to simulate a hill's worth of soil being dumped on a tile and spreading out is more than excessive, and the end results probably wouldn't look good. It would make such hills look like mounds of loosely packed dirt (and why couldn't my channeler simply push the ground up from underneath? why does he have to conjure ten-thousand tons of soil from thin air and drop it?). And shooting a fireball at a forest... That's almost as bad. It would have to simulate how fast the fire should spread, and how far - and to do that it would have to take into account distances between trees, and probably more.

And even still, there is as much hard-coding, in a way, going on in the material physics method. After all, something has to be hardcoded to allow for your spell to drop this massive amount of dirt from the sky.

And frankly, your description of the "Old way" is a bit simplistic and not entirely relevant. The terrain in Elemental is not comparable to the terrain in games like Civilization. There each tile is one terrain, be it plains, hills, mountains, etc. In Elemental, hills and mountains don't appear to just span one tile, but rather are contiguous features spanning larger areas, etc. The terrain is actually 3D. This means you can dynamically alter terrain without simulating overkill physics and without hardcoding. You want a spell to make a hill, make a spell that raises elevation of a target area. If you cast said spell in the ocean, your hill will probably be submerged just like in your material physics method but without the enormous programming and run-time excesses. As long as spells are capable of accessing and altering terrain parameters you could mod in any terrain-altering spell that your heart desires. Work would have to be put in by the devs if they want such spells to be animated (trees growing, terrain rising and sinking, formations forming and breaking, etc). But then they'd have to do that in most cases in the material physics method anyways, as the physics engine isn't going to be able to figure out how trees should grow all by itself - especially if it just considers trees and forests to be piles of wood.

Reply #8 Top

I agree. That level of material physics would probably take a supercomuter to run.

Reply #9 Top

I hope that these ultimate spells, whatever their effects, will take a few (or even many) turns to take full effect.  So...terrain would change steadily but a few tiles at a time.  This will allow the player who cast such a spell sit back and enjoy the growing damage inflicted on the world.  It would also allow other players a bit of time to mount a last ditch effort to dispell such a uber-spell by either pooling resources into some sort of magical sheild or counter-spell, or a desperate attach on the enemies capital, wizard tower, or critical resource.  This cold make for a real compelling end-game with lots of heroic gestures rather than the typical slugfest that signifies the end of a lot of Civ-type games.

Reply #10 Top

PigeonX2 & Scoutdog, I am raising a point that Populous spells can be done in another way & I prefer that way.   Whether it requires way too much time/CPU cycles to do it, it is not me/us will know. 
PigeonX2, my description of old way does not imply it is 2D.  The map is tile based, tile data still needed to be updated tile by tile regardless of the graphic engine is 2D or 3D.

Quoting bleeba, reply 9
I hope that these ultimate spells, whatever their effects, will take a few (or even many) turns to take full effect.  So...terrain would change steadily but a few tiles at a time.  This will allow the player who cast such a spell sit back and enjoy the growing damage inflicted on the world.  It would also allow other players a bit of time to mount a last ditch effort to dispell such a uber-spell by either pooling resources into some sort of magical sheild or counter-spell, or a desperate attach on the enemies capital, wizard tower, or critical resource.  This cold make for a real compelling end-game with lots of heroic gestures rather than the typical slugfest that signifies the end of a lot of Civ-type games.


This is cool!  In old MOM terms, these Populous spells are “global enchantment” that harm/change your land turn by turn.  You opponent can cast the “Disjunction” spell to have a chance to dispel that.    I will say the amount of essence/mana needed for this “Disjunction” spell should be a large portion of the Populous spell.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Climber, reply 10
PigeonX2 & Scoutdog, I am raising a point that Populous spells can be done in another way & I prefer that way.   Whether it requires way too much time/CPU cycles to do it, it is not me/us will know. 
PigeonX2, my description of old way does not imply it is 2D.  The map is tile based, tile data still needed to be updated tile by tile regardless of the graphic engine is 2D or 3D.

So then what's your point? If you are against having to change terrain type tile-by-tile, your material physics method doesn't fare any better. If the tile terrain isn't updated when you drop a mountain of dirt on it, how is the game supposed to know that the terrain has become impassable? And what about differences between terrains like rough/rocky terrain vs. open plains? You want the physics engine to figure all that out dynamically?

I can't say much for how long such things would take to program, but I can tell you that the resources required to run such a game would require the best commercial computers on the market, if not more, to run. Physical simulations are very intensive processes. And considering that Stardock wants this game to run on as wide a range of machines as possible, I can guarantee you that such computational complexity will definitely not make it into the game.

Reply #12 Top

Player casts: lower terrain (Drown, infadel)

CPU cast: raise terrain (grrrrr)

Player casts: lower terrain (die)

CPU cast: raise terrain (What?)

Player casts: lower terrain

CPU cast: raise terrain

Player casts: lower terrain

CPU cast: raise terrain

Player casts: lower terrain

CPU cast: raise terrain (ARG)

Reply #13 Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 11
... Physical simulations are very intensive processes. And considering that Stardock wants this game to run on as wide a range of machines as possible, I can guarantee you that such computational complexity will definitely not make it into the game.

Are you perhaps forgetting the difference between making something required for all possible ways to play the game and making something available for folks at the higher end of supported hardware? I was able to run GC2 happily for a long while on a low-end machine just by disabling pretty much all the eye candy. Having options to *enable* ridiculous physics modeling seems a plausible corrollary for their general runs-on-lots-o-boxes design goal.

Reply #14 Top

The problem is, the sort of physics he is talking about is actually an integeral part of how the game handles spells and buildings: it is actually a part of the game engine itself, and therefore there is no way to turn it on or off without destroying the way the game works.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting GW, reply 13
Are you perhaps forgetting the difference between making something required for all possible ways to play the game and making something available for folks at the higher end of supported hardware? I was able to run GC2 happily for a long while on a low-end machine just by disabling pretty much all the eye candy. Having options to *enable* ridiculous physics modeling seems a plausible corrollary for their general runs-on-lots-o-boxes design goal.

What Scoutdog said. You can't simply turn off the "material physics" if your computer can't handle it without breaking the game, because the material physics is what would determine the outcome. Turning off the eye-candy and turning off the actual game-engine are too very different things :P Stardock could put both methods in so people with non-super computers could still run the game, but then things would turn out very differently based on what version you're running and that doesn't sound ideal to me.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 14
The problem is, the sort of physics he is talking about is actually an integeral part of how the game handles spells and buildings: it is actually a part of the game engine itself, and therefore there is no way to turn it on or off without destroying the way the game works.

I took you to be discussing the visuals-based 'integrated physics' thing, so I thought that the underlying 'database' stuff was still just fields, values, and some quick math to determine whether and how to change a field value. I never seriously thought about trying to work something like the 'physics' from an FPS into the game. Hence my apparently misguided eye-candy notion here.

Reply #17 Top

I'm all for physics but I would point out you guys may be taking this a bit to literally. You could easily impose limits and generic values on material physics. This would allow Havok to simulate just about anything easily. Of course, it would be lacking realism but we are talking about a game with magic. 

To use the fire ball example if you set an average distance the fire could spread and average speed based on the type of fire spell used it wouldn't be difficult at all to simulate. If you applied some generalized rules for hill creation it too could be done with out straining Havok or modern gaming computers. 

The only way this would run into a problem is if you wanted real world values for everything which would require a near infinite number of variables. If you reduce every material physics calculation to say 3 maybe 4 variables however I think it could be used with great effect while minimizing resource consumption.

If you wanted to add a random element to material physics to more accurately simulate the real world you could have a variable be randomized within a certain range based on the situation. Using the fire ball example again if you randomized the speed a fire can spread by 1% - 20% you would have a more dynamic "alive" fire. Although I would guess most people wouldn't care or notice such a thing. 

Reply #18 Top

The only way this would run into a problem is if you wanted real world values for everything which would require a near infinite number of variables.

Exactly. And, again, you are referring to graphical physics, as opposed to engine physics.

Reply #19 Top

Goodmorning all,

I would like to see a vast array of temperary spells.

'sudden winter' - renders land into snow scape, all the normal snow effects. lower's farm output.

'heat wave' - same as above but dessertification.

'Splitting the watters' underwatter land bridge, al la Moses. Your troops can pass, if they try you cancel the spell and drown them all. 

'Land bounce' makes a hill, that rises over several turns then falls after some delay over several turns.

The goal for most of these would be that they provide you a temperary benifit (pass under water, make a last stand by defending a temperary hilltop for hight advantage. render an opposing town useless) But the same spells would exist as perminents.  Opposing channeler would have to deside for themselves, or use probe magic, if the spell effect was perminent, long lasting, or temperary and weather or not to dispel the effect or wait it out.

Your town is hit by heat wave, could be natural could be your nieghbour messing with you, do you spend time magic checking? It's magic, is it temperarry, is it perminent?  Wait it out? dispell it now?  if you dispel it and it was temperary you've waisted a lot of energy . . . if you don't it hurts you every turn....


I'd also like to see a spell for moving whole land masses, continetal drift, got an enemy that's bugging you, split the land between you and him and send his half across the ocean till he's butting up against a differnt channlers territory, and hopefully get into a war with them instead of you. 

If the game has a mirror world, or underground, picking up a full town and shifting it to the other plain.

if you want to talk about massive magic,   Close your borders,  enclose your entire empire in a seperate universe till you dispell,  all your towns and map are removed from the cloth map and world, entering your teritory 'teleports' walkers to the other side, you can develop grow free from interfearance war till you dispell, with an army of bigness waiting at your border towns to suprise your opponents. (who may have developed on the far side of your land, Devide and concure!) 


just some thoughts.

robbie price

Reply #20 Top

if you want to talk about massive magic, Close your borders, enclose your entire empire in a seperate universe till you dispell, all your towns and map are removed from the cloth map and world, entering your teritory 'teleports' walkers to the other side, you can develop grow free from interfearance war till you dispell, with an army of bigness waiting at your border towns to suprise your opponents. (who may have developed on the far side of your land, Devide and concure!)

Of course, there is the matter of what happens to the people and things in the territory you "land" on when it's over, but the idea sounds interesting. I was thinking that if there was a unit under or over a building, the unit dies, unit-on-unit does (equal) damage to both, and building-on-building destroys both.

Reply #21 Top

I was thinking that the teritory you lock off would vanish from the map,  the squares become inaccesable, walking on to one of them warps the walker to the other side of the territory. 

_____________________
      \                 \
       |                 |
   A  |    B           /   C
_____\__________/____

B casts the spell,  B becomes locked off, Borders A and C are treated as if they were in contact, until the spell is turned of / destroyed.

If Civ C extpands taking over half of A

___________
   |   |\
   |   ||
  A|  |/   C
__|__\/____
     ^
    now owned by C not A

then after ending the spell


_____________________
   |   \                 \
    |   |                 |
  A| C|    B           /   C
__|___\__________/____

would be the new situation with C cut in half by the regeneration of B.

+1 Loading…
Reply #22 Top

Quoting Robbie.Price, reply 19
Goodmorning all,
if you want to talk about massive magic,   Close your borders,  enclose your entire empire in a seperate universe till you dispell,  all your towns and map are removed from the cloth map and world, entering your teritory 'teleports' walkers to the other side, you can develop grow free from interfearance war till you dispell, with an army of bigness waiting at your border towns to suprise your opponents. (who may have developed on the far side of your land, Devide and concure!) 

Cool idea! I would love to see a spell like this make it into the game! And if you want to make it even more powerful, units could be able to leave the area, but not reenter. So, for example, if your ally is getting beaten to a pulp you could send forth your armies to help him (but they wouldn't be able to return to your land until you dispel it). 

Reply #23 Top

Looks good. I missed the warping part, but now that I have thought through the way "landing" would work, I am beginning to wonder if it might be better to make it work that way...

Reply #24 Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 22


Cool idea! I would love to see a spell like this make it into the game! And if you want to make it even more powerful, units could be able to leave the area, but not reenter. So, for example, if your ally is getting beaten to a pulp you could send forth your armies to help him (but they wouldn't be able to return to your land until you dispel it). 


That would probably be a higher level version of the spell, or a combined spell, (a seperate world spell, and then a transdimentional transportation spell, that allows you to send units out bubble. [also transporation spell would work for a counter spell. rather then dismantle the spell, teleport in a strike team and wreck maham, or have the spell have a source object visible on the map (too powerfull to be near a town) and have that be destroyable by strong wisards able to penetrate the barrier just long enough to get a team threw. ])


Just so everyobdy knows i stole in part the idea from a Terry Pratchette novel. but i don't remember which one, (had matmatically gifted cammels, and a prince who came to ankmorkpork to become an assasin) then had to return to be king. Might have involved pyramids....

Reply #25 Top

Agreed completely with what Darkodinplus said at Reply #17.  The physics engine is integral part of the game, but the specific physics code will not be there until there is a need for it.  In all games I knew, fireball is only a spell exist in tactical combat.  However, if EWOM make this spell available in Cloth map map tiles, SD coders need to program the fire-spreading mechanism similar to Darkodinplus described at the physics engine level, instead of at the spell level.   Physics engine actually allow more code reuse.   Say if there is lightning as weather effect (or as a spell too) that can causes forest fire, the same fire-spreading code can be reused.   All material physics code should also account for the scale differences (if any) when the same effect happens in tactical map, i.e. fire should also spread in tactical combat, although its rate might be different.

A specific effect/rule of the physics engine should be built as per need basis, piece by piece. If there is no circumstances that there will be fire-spread in game atm, no code will be there.

Robbie.Price does have good ideas for Populous spells, I like most of them.  These spells should scales, i.e. the more mana/essence you spent casting them the longer/the larger area should be (in my previous thread’s term, it means it increases the Damaging Strength, DS).   Most, if not all spells casts on other player’s border can be dispelled by Disjunction.   For spells that are permanent, they should still offer your rival a chance to disjunct; but this window of opportunity disappears after a while, then a raised hill is a hill raised.