Saved game - difficulty level

Is there a way to tell the difficulty level of a saved game?

I do not randomize AI intelligence.  I can tell from the Intelligence report that the AIs are "Genius" but I do not know if that means I was playing "Suicidal" or not?

I ask because I've been trying to win on "Suicidal" and have this one won, but I forgot what the difficulty I selected back when I started!  <Grrrrr>

(I want to play it out if it's "Suicidal" but not otherwise.)

44,841 views 41 replies
Reply #1 Top

You can look in your debug.err file and compair it to the intelligence levels on the Wiki page:
https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Difficulty_level

Difficulty = (AI Level) (AI Intelligence)

  • Cakewalk = 15 (Fool)
  • Easy = 20 (Dunce)
  • Simple = 30 (Beginner)
  • Beginner = 40 (Sub-Normal)
  • Normal = 50 (Normal)
  • Challenging = 65 (Bright)
  • Tough = 80 (Intelligent) *Full AI capability from here on*
  • Painful = 85 (Gifted)
  • Crippling = 95 (Genius)
  • Masochistic = 100 (Incredible)
  • Obscene = 120 (Godlike)
  • Suicidal = 150 (Ultimate)

In the Debug.err file you should be able to find the AIs by a simple search:
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Terran Alliance who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Drengin Empire who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Altarian Resistance who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Arcean Empire who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Torian Confederation who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Dominion of Korx who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Thalan Empire who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Iconian Refuge who has intelligence 150
Debug Message:  Loaded Civ Korath Clan who has intelligence 150

Reply #2 Top

Ah!  Thanks.  That was just a "Crippling" save game, then.

I can beat it on "Tough", "Painful", and "Crippling" but the jump to "Suicidal" is proving to be hard for me.

I play gigantic plus abundant everything with max players and all victory conditions, with Research on "Slow".  What I'm finding is that the AIs sustain the colony rush longer going right through Extreme Colonization with hardly any delay and still bludgeon the research tree of everything by brute force better than I can harvest the things I want by careful choice.  They pick up the weapons and invasion techs even as their ships get better engines and range.

The choice of the race that get multiple colony techs seems to let me hold my own in the colony rush long enough to set up a useful perimeter, but I'm left with not much in weapons and warships and nothing to bribe them to fight each other.  Yet, if I pick a race with the manipulator trait, the AIs swamp me in the colony rush.

This is tough!

Reply #3 Top

Trade them Influence points for cash, then use the cash to bribe them to attack eachother, then buy the cash back with more influence. Net effect is you spent influence to make them goto war. You can also buy some techs from them using influence to get in the tech lead.

Reply #4 Top

I have often seen references to using Influence in trades and selling Influence.  I have tried that many times and have yet to have an AI agree to any such thing.

I have tried selling Influence for cash.  In fact, I tried a great many variations, including 990 through 999, as one poster reported success with those specific values - - no luck.

Even using Influence as the last little bit to close a deal has not worked for me, let alone trading just Infuence for techs.

I will certainly try it again, though.  It is most clear that I need every wedge of cheese I can scrounge at "Suicidal"!

Oh - I'm playing DA, if that makes a difference.

Reply #5 Top

I can beat it on "Tough", "Painful", and "Crippling" but the jump to "Suicidal" is proving to be hard for me.
The jump to suicidal is definitely a big jump. There are many different strategies that work it's mostly a matter of finding one that fits in with your current play style.

One of the best ways to keep the AI's off your back until you're strong enough to want to start facing them directly is to go up the diplomacy path to Total Majesty and build the Spin Control Center (SCC). You can then put up ten cargo hulls full of the best weapon you currently have in orbit around the planet with the SCC and your military rating will go through the roof. This will instill fear in the AI's and keep them from attacking you. You can also use the diplomacy advantage gained by this to get the best of the AI in tech trades. There's a lot you can do with a diplomatic lead in this game that you can't otherwise do.

Another thing you can do is to pay a nearby AI to fight with another nearby AI. It's usually pretty cheap to do this particularly if they are of naturally different alignments. If an AI is busy in a war they are more likely to leave you alone. Also you can wait on the sidelines and pick off random mining resources that are usually the first thing to get killed off in battle.

The thing with Suicidal is that there is no way that you can keep up and simply take the AI out on an equal footing. The suicidal bonus is just to huge. You basically have to use stealth and guile to use the AI's force against themselves. Sort of like GalCiv2 jujitsu.

One final piece of advice is to join a credible empire. There's a lot of information that folks have accumulated that is not necessarily public knowledge. I recommend the Tyranny of Evil although there are other fine empires out there as well.

Reply #6 Top

I would think the AIs would colony rush swamp me if I put the vast bulk of my resources into running down the end of the diplomacy tree.  That is, until one has more than a handful of planets fairly well along in development, one has a very small base for research and the rest, and meanwhile the AIs are piling up Influence, etc.  If I put lots of points into Research traits, my economy suffers, etc.

I've read a Suicidal AAR or two and have been at this game for maybe a year, and am still learning.  I was able to use my basic All Factories approach up to Crippling, with just a few tightening tactics or efficiency gains.  Suicidal remains my challenge.

Reply #7 Top

I would think the AIs would colony rush swamp me if I put the vast bulk of my resources into running down the end of the diplomacy tree.
Not necessarily. Yeah the AI's would definitely outcolonize you by a substanstial margin however the point is, is what you're doing allowing you to win at suicidal? If the answer is no then you might want to at least try a suggestion from someone that's been beating suicidal for about 3 years now. :)

This game is not unlike a whole raft of other 4X games in that at the highest levels there is simply no way to legitimately compete against the AI in straightforward heads up play. There's no doubt that the suicidal AI will be ahead of you in virtually all categories. The thing is that the AI tends to research in a uniform manner spread across a wide range of areas. If you try and emulate that approach all you will accomplish is to be behind in *all* areas of research within a very short time.

The only way a human can compete is to identify a very limited area of research and focus exclusively on that. This allows the human to gain an advantage in at least one area of research and if they've correctly identified the most critical area of research to focus on then they can use that to gain advantages elsewhere. This can be tough to do. There are a whole lot of techs that are "nice to have" but you can't afford to research them. You must identify the techs that are "absolutley critical" and focus only on them. If you do you can easily get to Total Majesty within 6 months and put up a SCC and then be virtually immune from attack allowing you the time to build yourself up and pick and choose your targets.

Diplomacy provides at least a two fold benefit. While you most certainly can't out research the Suicidal AI you can with a sufficient diplomatic advantage trade to get the techs that they have researched on favorable terms to yourself. So with a diplomatic advantage you can actually use tech trading to get yourself into the number 1 technology spot simply by researching virtually nothing but the diplomacy techs and gaining everything else by trade.

Secondly you are almost totally safe from attack at least as long as the colony rush is in progress. It's only once the colony rush slows down that you have to start worrying. In a large enough galaxy it's no problem finishing the diplomacy branch before the colony rush is over. This gives you the time you need.

Like I said there are very many ways to play and very many paths to success against the suicidal AI. But one thing I can guarantee is that trying to outcolonize and out research them and then take them all on in a straight out battle is *not* one of those methods.

Reply #8 Top

Well, okay.  I've beaten SEIV and MOO2 on the highest difficulties many times, so I am familiar with what you said.

Still, surely one cannot do what you said with just 3 planets, can one?  That is, one starts with one, and one colony ship, and one miner that can be converted into a colony ship.  So, at Suicidal, how many colonies does one go for?  Can you do All Factories?  If so, one needs several planets and/or Manufacturing Centers to get a decent Research rate.  Yet, to get more planets than 3, one must build colonizers.  To get more than basic Factories, one must research them.

To use the standard sliders approach, the absence of planet-specific sliders seems to make it even tougher.  Maybe if one started with a 700% research tile, or something, one could do it.

Anyway, if you're beating in on Suicidal, how many planets do you Rush for?  What Factory tech do you settle for if you use All Factories and Focus?  What Research tech do you use if just sliders?

Reply #9 Top

I can't speak about Suicidal difficulty, as I've been playing on Masochistic for awhile now. Planning on jumping upto Obscene next game since I'm having too easy of a time. Might try Suicidal just for fun. (TA version btw)

DL Basic Factory: 6 production, 1 maintenance, 50 cost
DA Basic Factory: 4 production, 0 maintenance (is that true?), 50 cost
TA Traditional Factory (Human): 4 production, 3 maintenance, 50 cost
TA Basic Replicator (Iconian): 3 production, 1 maintenance, 25 cost

I don't know which version (DL / DA / TA) you play on LTjim, so included all the lowest factory units there. I play on TA as either Human or Iconian, so compairatively it looks like like my starting factories are worse off than the DL/DA ones. With _no_ production / research bonus tiles, and filling in the starting planet with just factories and 2 moral buildings, plus the 3-4 asteroids nearby, I'm able to sustain a colonyrush for quite a long time. Using Mumblefratz's advice he posted a long time ago, I don't build anything on any planets (except a starport, takes 5-8 turns) until they're max or near max population. That gives me the money to sustain my empire until I'm ready to start building things other than colony ships. Most of my ships will come from my home planet, normally at the rate of 1 ship a turn or every-other turn. At around turn 40 I'll start rush-buyng colony ships near the borders and use those to expand. After my home planet is filled with factories, I'll set the sliders split between military and research.

Typical game on a Gigantic / Immense galaxy, abundant everything:
Turn 10 about 3 colonies.
Turn 20 about 6 colonies.
Turn 30 about 10-12.
Turn 40 about 18-24. Start rush-buying.
Turn 50 about 35-40.
Turn 60 about 55-60.
Turn 70 about 80-85.
Turn 80 about 100.
Turn 85 - Buy up all Economic / Research treaties from all 9 major and all 8 minor civs, as well as all the Extreme Environment techs they have. Research those techs for myself. The AIs are also just now starting to finish researching weapons. Bribe each empire to attack eachother, as insurance they'll be too busy attack me.
Turn 90 about 120.
Turn 100 about 160.
Turn 110 about 200 colonies. About this time there's no more colonies to colonize, so it's time to start building up each planet for war. I'm actually able to go upto turn 200 or sometimes well past turn 300 without building a single combat ship. And my home planet still only has Traditional Factories or Basic Replicators for production at turn 100ish.

Rereading this before I post... and I think I'll postpone the game I'm on and try suicidal. Should prove to be entertaining.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting LTjim, reply 4
I have often seen references to using Influence in trades and selling Influence.  I have tried that many times and have yet to have an AI agree to any such thing.

I have tried selling Influence for cash.  In fact, I tried a great many variations, including 990 through 999, as one poster reported success with those specific values - - no luck.

Even using Influence as the last little bit to close a deal has not worked for me, let alone trading just Infuence for techs.

I will certainly try it again, though.  It is most clear that I need every wedge of cheese I can scrounge at "Suicidal"!

Oh - I'm playing DA, if that makes a difference.

Don't expect massive returns, just pick away at them. My usual trade is 991 influence (fewest keystrokes to set it, no other reason) and I can usually get up to 400+ bc for it from some races, as low as ~240 from the Terrans until they start researching diplo tech of their own, then it drops further. Note these values are for very high treasury values, more than 2k or so. If the target AI's treasury is lower than that, trade for lower amounts of influence - 91 is a common amount for me, for the same reason as 991. The exchange rate is inversely related to the amount you are trying to trade.

The biggest hint of all - ALWAYS enter your influence trade before selecting what the AI will trade for it. Even if you know it is overkill, add the influence even before the tech you are trading for, then add bcs to make up the difference. If it was overkill, ask for bc or even influence points back from the AI. There are trades, mainly with minors, that I trade 991 IP for 40+ bcs and 1200+ IP in return - yes, that's free money and IP. Note this is with MASSIVE diplo bonuses, your results will vary.

As I'm sure you have discovered, the value of IP offered 1000 or more at a time is essentially zero. Don't even try.

 

Reply #11 Top

So the Influence points trade games cannot begin until after all the Diplomacy techs?  Don't the advanced gov'ts give Diplomacy bonuses?  Do you build the Translators improvement?  Even when it has said I have "Incredible" advantage, I have been unable to get any Influence points trades.

I'm still having trouble envisioning enough Research gains out of three planets.

I can duplicate something like the Colony Rush Kontana mentions up to Crippling, but not in Suicidal.  There, I end up overextended and meat on the table for the first AI to go for my throat.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting LTjim, reply 8
Well, okay.  I've beaten SEIV and MOO2 on the highest difficulties many times, so I am familiar with what you said.

Still, surely one cannot do what you said with just 3 planets, can one?  That is, one starts with one, and one colony ship, and one miner that can be converted into a colony ship.  So, at Suicidal, how many colonies does one go for?  Can you do All Factories?  If so, one needs several planets and/or Manufacturing Centers to get a decent Research rate.  Yet, to get more planets than 3, one must build colonizers.  To get more than basic Factories, one must research them.

To use the standard sliders approach, the absence of planet-specific sliders seems to make it even tougher.  Maybe if one started with a 700% research tile, or something, one could do it.

Anyway, if you're beating in on Suicidal, how many planets do you Rush for?  What Factory tech do you settle for if you use All Factories and Focus?  What Research tech do you use if just sliders?
A lot of questions here.

The best answer is, it depends. As I said there are many different ways to play. In actuality I can do it with one planet and All Labs, or 3 planets and All Labs, or perhaps a dozen planets with an old fashioned mixed labs/factory approach, or go for all out colonization getting to about 50 planets but then simply cutting my rush short to do a burst of research before the AI's finish their colony rush.

I have seldom used All Factory but clearly with All Factory you're going to need a *lot* more planets than with All Labs. I tend to use either All Labs or a mixed approach, but even my All Labs is usually a mixed approach but with most attention paid to research, I'll still plod down a factory on a juicy 300% bonus tile. With a mix of both labs and factories I generally find myself switching back and forth between all research and all production.

All of these methods and combintions thereof can work but at first they all might not work for you. There really is no single path through this game nor is there a simple formula that anyone can just give you. People can suggest the outline of an approach and hopefully give a few details about how to get around a few major sticking points but there are just so many details and so many "what-ifs" that no one can simply *give* you *the* method.

Like I said you don't have to be able to generate more research points than a Suicidal AI to simply focus on one narrow range of reseach and be able to out research the Suicidal AI in that one area. Using only one planet you may very well want to use ctrl-n until you get a precusor library on your home planet. That might even be necessary if you limit yourself to 3 planets. But a lot of these options are six of one and a half dozen of another. Colonizing a decent base of 12 planets or so before shifting over to "research" mode can be as effective or possibly even more effective than sticking with one planet with a precursor library on it and exclusively doing research. A lot of things come into play. Like how do you support huge amounts of research from only one or a limited number of planets? There certainly are ways you could do this. Typically tech whoring or selling the same techs to multiple AI's is one way. Spamming survey ships for cash anomalies is another. Usually a combination of both works best.

The problem is that each answer tends to engender even more questions which require yet more answers. Trial and error is the best teacher because no matter how much someone tells you or explains, what gets said is the tip of the iceberg and what is left unsaid is the 90% that you have to figure out for yourself.

The question is how much is enough? The answer is how much do you got? If all you're trying to do is to win sooner or later then you can probably accomplish that 100 different ways. If you're trying to win *and* get the maximum possible score then that probably eliminates some of the more brute force methods, but even then what's the best path is the subject of debate.

The first and most basic way is to simply do your best to compete and keep up with the AI colonization rate. You should probably be able to do that at least until you reach the point of needing the extreme colonization techs. At that point you can no longer compete so you may as well stop colonizing and buildup what you have to research as best that you can and simply focus on what it is that you need. If the AI's come and kill you before you can research and build the SCC then you need to pull up a little earlier. 

I always keep a save game from every quarter of the game. In cases where there is a lot going on at any one time then I might keep a save game from every month. I start out with a method I'm going to try out and I see how far I get and if things are going well then I push forward, if things aren't doing so well I go back to a breakpoint where I was satisfied with how the game was progressing and start again only this time trying something different or perhaps doing the same thing but just a little more efficiently. This results in a lot of backing up a retrying and backing up even further and retrying some more but in the end you will know what works for you and then it will be your turn to try and explain that to someone new.

Personally I have never had any luck selling influence but to each their own.

Reply #13 Top

You can start trading earlier, you just won't get as good results. Diplo translators are a must - build them yourself if at all possible, if you buy them off someone else, chances are everyone else did, too.

If you can't get anyone to trade for influence points at all, there is something wrong. Don't ask for tech or anything, just a straight IP for bcs trade. Even under adverse conditions you should be able to get 1 bc for every 15 IP or so. Ten to one is what I consider the minimum I"ll trade for.

Don't atempt to play with three planets. Don't go overboard on the colony rush, but you need something. If you can manage half to two thirds of that rush without bankrupting yourself, do that.

What Mumble said about the AI always being able to out-research you only applies for the first year or so. The game I'm currently running I was behind for the first year, then started catching up fast, then overtook the highest researcher by about turn 70, then maxed out at about 10x the second place researcher - and that only because I gave then my research treaty. Now I'm 130 turns in and have about finished the tree, so I've started building over my labs in prep for going all factory. My biggest problem is that I screwed over the AIs so badly they never researched some techs I'd really like (healing pools, killzone, the Terran morale tech that gives the +speed tradegood, concepts of malice, etc). At this point only one AI has more than 5 planets, and I'm giving weapons and defenses away in hopes they will research something worthwhile.

Reply #14 Top

Willy -

You are obviously not talking about DA.  Is that TA?

Reply #15 Top

Mumble -

Of course, I both tech whore and survey spam, with quick runs to ion engines and the survey module and one life support gain (depending on initial position).

I have yet to try any variation of All Labs.  I got frustrated with the sliders dance of the "normal" approach, so switched quite some time ago to All Factories.  Up to Crippling, I could keep pace in the Colony Rush, just as you said.  As soon as I have gotten a decent planet base, the focus approach let me match the AIs in Research with no trouble as I knew what techs and Improvements I really needed.

So, you do generally execute some Colony Rush generally before you plunge down the Research track of Diplomacy.  I was not sure of that, on your earlier posts.   It's just a timing thing, to get the Spin CC in time to keep the AIs off you.  Okay, I can see that.

Right now, in my current game, I ran down the gov't track to just before Federation with side-tracks to the first morale improvement, banks, and some diplomacy steps.  I wanted to get the political capital, the eco capital, and the diplo/influence improvements.  I have just managed to bribe the top four AIs into wars with each other, and I hope to use the breathing space to get to the SCC.  I may just have gotten the timing right, this time.  We'll see.

Reply #16 Top

I am talking about TA, but nearly all of it would apply the same in DA. I missed where you said you were playing DA X|

That's the main reason I left out all factory or all lab as a starting strat - it's been mauled by the nerf-bat to the point where balanced is nearly equal in terms of efficiency. In DA just go all factory and beat the shit out of everything. The reason they nerfed it was that all factory made the game waaaaay too easy.

Rereading your posts, I think I found your problem: Research on "Slow" is essentially shooting yourself in the nuts. The AI already has a significant advantage in research output, why magnify it by increasing the necessary output per tech? That's the difference between being able to rush the techs we've discussed and getting run over while attempting to rush them.

Reply #17 Top

Of course, I both tech whore and survey spam, with quick runs to ion engines and the survey module and one life support gain (depending on initial position).
I usually go from New Propulsion Techniques to Impulse II in a single turn, but don't bother with life support

Actually there is a trick specifically in DA and specifically when playing suicidal difficulty with using Altarian Technologist and max ability points to research. In this case you get an "undocumented bonus" to your research that actually allows you to out research the Suicidal AI assuming you used ctrl-n to select a home planet with a precursor library and you quickly plop down your Tech Cap. This undocumented bonus is very dependant on difficulty level and at Obscene is less than half that at Suicidal and almost negligible at Masochistic and below. The big trick is in paying for all this research and in deciding where to apply it.

So, you do generally execute some Colony Rush generally before you plunge down the Research track of Diplomacy.
Actually no I don't. This actually has nothing to do with the above mentioned trick because it's a technique that I've used in DL for a very long time as well as DA without using Altarian Technologist. The only thing the trick does is, along with very careful money management, allow you to actually out research the Suicidal AI right out of the gate. Without the trick you can still apply the technique, in fact it's easier to apply it because your research costs are not nearly so high, it's just that your rate of research will not be as high. But even without the trick you can still easily beat the AI up the diplomacy path to quickly gain a tech trade advantage as well as get the SCC before the AI comes and kills you. Without the trick this might take you most of the first year and perhaps a little beyond. With the trick you can do the same in less than 6 months (assuming you're able to fund your research).

Like I said I've beaten Suicidal with one planet, three planets and a hundred planets and everything in between. I've beaten them using the quick dash to the SCC as well as in a straight up planet to planet invasion of the entire galaxy.

I do partially agree with Willy that slow tech is probably not the best to your advantage. I use the fastest tech possible but the way that I view things is that the AI's are really colonizing for my benefit. They're merely doing my leg work for me so I always try to maximize their ability to colonize quickly. But I have also used slow tech as well. In fact when I first started I was adverse to using tech trading at all and intentionally disabled tech trading along with setting research speed to the slowest possible. In those days I would pick out a nice PQ32 to make my tech capital and fill it up with research buildings and surround it with 16 economic starbases which along with my tech cap would give me close to a 500% research bonus to the planet. Using such an uber-research planet was another way of out researching the Suicidal AI. I've just found that the diplomatic path can accomplish the same results so much faster.

Right now, in my current game, I ran down the gov't track to just before Federation with side-tracks to the first morale improvement, banks, and some diplomacy steps. I wanted to get the political capital, the eco capital, and the diplo/influence improvements.
See this is what I mean by "nice to have" versus what is truly essential. You can't afford side trips no matter how attractive they may be. You need to keep focus on *only* what is absolutely necessary. Once you've attained what is truly necessary then you can backtrack and get all those "nice to have" techs.

Plus who knows you could save yourself a whole lot of effort and simply get most of these "nice to have" techs in trade. However one thing is that I never trade techs that have a diplomatic bonus. That means that I do need to have a smattering of techs on hand for trade fodder, but there are usually enough of those to get yourself started and then you gain more the more you trade. Things like Advanced Computing that you need to get your Tech Cap or the engine and sensor techs you need to get decent survey ships out there. Even Xeno Communications, Universal Translator and the like. Also keep a sharp eye out for minors and always put 8 into the game. You can get 800 bc off every minor the first time you meet them.

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Reply #18 Top

I can't leapfrog from New Propulsion Techniques to Impulse II in one turn unless I have a huge Research base that I can't get unless i have a lot of planets, which I can't get unless I colonize them with ships that I need those same engines for in order to beat the AIs to enough of them.

The one life support improvement is something I do not always do, but initial map position sometimes makes necessary, if my survey ships are to be able to reach enough of the map to be worthwhile.  Sometimes, all I need to do is to send out one (or two) constructor(s) and build a base or two at along the fringe.

I think it is the Research rate on "Slow" that may be the source of the commo failure here.  Generally, I have preferred a bit of a slower-paced game in the 4X genre, hence that choice in my games so far.  Also, the slower the Research rate, the more of an advantage in the Colony Rush a race has that initially begins with Ion engines - and I like that - or rewards quick research into getting ion engines.

Those techs I jumped sideways for were ones I judged necessary tactically.  One, to keep my economy from cratering prematurely and to have a couple things to trade for the same reason.  Also, in the current game, it looks like the Terrans got lucky in placement in that they have several Influence mining bases and I saw lots of constructors heading for them.  I saw the effects and several planets began to show the unhappy face, including a few of mine, so I went the gov't route and got the Restaurant of Whatever before the Terrans could.  I built one cheap spy so that I could snoop and saw the Terrans were building it, and i feared i would lose several worlds before i could get the Diplomacy techs, etc.  It's like fighting off an alligator or two as one tries to drain the swamp, but in this game i seem to be managing it.

Reply #19 Top

I can't leapfrog from New Propulsion Techniques to Impulse II in one turn unless I have a huge Research base that I can't get unless i have a lot of planets,
Nope, you can do it with *three* planets. Actually virtually all of the research does occur on *one* planet but you need three planets to get around the requirement that in any one turn you can only gain one more tech than you have planets.

Like I said, try Altarian Technologist with max ability points spent on research and you *must* be at suicidal difficulty. Use ctrl-n until you get a precursor mine or two 300% research bonus tiles on your homeworld. Research Xeno Research and Advanced Computing and plop down your tech cap on a long term lease and voila, you too can research from New Propulsion Techniques to Impulse II in a single turn.

But also like I said the *real* trick is figuring out how to pay for all this research. ;)

The one life support improvement is something I do not always do
My initial survey ship consists of a cargo hull, 3 basic support modules, a survey module and 2 Impulse Drive II engines for a speed 6 survey ship with a range of 4.7 sectors. Spamming 4 of these along with my flagship seems to do pretty well at finding those cash anomalies that can be critical to keeping you afloat.

Those techs I jumped sideways for were ones I judged necessary tactically. One, to keep my economy from cratering prematurely and to have a couple things to trade for the same reason.
Keeping your economy from tanking is definitely the key issue but there are ways to do it without "going sideways". Half the battle is in knowing a thing can be done. Once you know that something can be done then I'm sure you're clever enough and determined enough to figure it out for yourself. But like I also said you can always join an empire of folks that already know and are willing to help as long as you're willing to show some effort on your own part along with a bit of loyalty.

Also, in the current game, it looks like the Terrans got lucky
The Terrans have an intrinsic diplomacy bonus that can make things difficult. The Terrans AI personality also seems to have a particular immunity to your diplomatic advantage beyond what can simply attributed to their 25% intrinsic diplomacy bonus. But why fight city hall? You aren't required to include the Terrans in your list of opponents. I'd rather include the Drath with their 30% diplomacy bonus than the Terrans, but that's just me.

It's like fighting off an alligator or two as one tries to drain the swamp, but in this game i seem to be managing it.
Each time you try, you learn something new or come up with something to try the next time. Your true goal is the journey itself, not the apparent destination. :)

Reply #20 Top

On survey ships, I do about the same with ion engines and 2 basic.  I think the approach you described involves an All Labs one, or one with that theme at the core.  I'll have to try that once I get tired of All Factories.

In the game(s) I mentioned, I did not build more survey ships or even upgrade them, but just used the range gain from the new tech.  Using All factories, there are some turns where I need to de-focus at a lot of planets for an empire-wide upgrade.  I have found it useful or expedient to use those low-research-yield turns to gain low level techs left temporarily behind.

I let the game decide randomly the opponents.  Since I chose max players, the Terrans are usaually there.  I once saw the high Influence thing before with the Thalians.  The minors seem to snap up many of the spatial mining resources, but sometimes the galaxy geometry groups several of those points almost together.  In DA, the Thalians can grow in population fast and, with some economic and infuence moning bases, it can happen fast that the Thalians get high Influence early such that recently settled worlds with low population are vulnerable.  The game I mentioned was perhaps the first time I'd seen the Terrans do about the same thing.  Somehow, they managed to get three and maybe four Influence bases very early.

I didn't understand your empire and loyalty comment.  Is that a reference to the "Metaverse"?

Reply #21 Top

I've been reading this thread and I think gaining a few gems for future games.  Mumblefratz, as always, your advice is very good and delivered in a respectful manner.  One question on something you mentioned:

Quoting Mumblefratz, reply 17

Also keep a sharp eye out for minors and always put 8 into the game. You can get 800 bc off every minor the first time you meet them.

I always include max minors for many reasons, but I was unaware of the 800bc thing.  Is this by extortion?  Or by selling them certain technologies?  Or some other moneymaker that I cannot think of?

Thanks, KD

Reply #22 Top

I'm not Mumblefratz, obviously, but i am confident that he is referring to selling them techs. 

They generally have many tech and improvement gaps, especially early when one first encounters them.

 Just don't sell them techs that give Diplomacy bonuses, of course.  ;-)

Reply #23 Top

i am confident that he is referring to selling them techs.
Yep.  :)

 Even meeting them almost a year into the game you can usually get sell them things like HyperDrive and Universal Translator. I also always "sell" them Trade so that they put an econ cap on their homeworld. It makes for a better planet once I do finally decide to take them out.

Is that a reference to the "Metaverse"?
Yep again.  :)

The loyalty part is a reference to the fact that there have been people that joined empires just to gain their "secrets" and then quit to rejoin other empires. In reality any real "secrets" are pretty temporary as all the various techniques get widely known sooner or later, so why some folks feel such subterfuge is necessary is a bit beyond me, but such folks do exist.

The metaverse is pretty much predicated on the idea that score has at least some minimal relationship to ability. There are many that could care less and that's fine, I've known many that I've considered to be excellent players that never posted a single metaverse game. But for some the slight element of competition between players that the metaverse adds to what is otherwise a single person game against AI increases their enjoyment of the game. It's all in good fun as long as you don't take it too seriously and you don't make the mistaken presumption that just because you're higher than someone else on the metaverse that it's guaranteed that you're the better player because that's not necessarily true.

I do believe it can be somewhat informative since someones medals in their posts tell you pretty much what difficulty level they play at.

Reply #24 Top

Good morning, sir!  ;-)

I'm still sweating out that first Suicidal game.  Despite my getting all the AIs into fratricidal wars - does "fraticide" even apply to potentially non-gendered aliens?? - and also having gotten all weapon cargo hulls built at and in orbit around a high ship bonus planet with the SCC, the Drath have declared war on me anyway.  <sigh>

They are fighting moi and two other AIs, despite not being very high in the list, but their ships are tough.  I also shifted my two dozen spies onto them.  As soon as they will talk again, I'll get to see what their treasury is, though I can draw inferences from their Treasury ranking, of course.

On spy assaults, do you have any tactics you might recommend?

I generally do not bother until I have enough to hurt an economy.  I wait until I have about 25, then hit every capitol structure and every farm.  After one turn, I shift all the farm spy onto economy bonus improvements, like a banks or stock exchanges.

Reply #25 Top

and also having gotten all weapon cargo hulls built at and in orbit around a high ship bonus planet with the SCC, the Drath have declared war on me anyway.
Hmm ... what is your military might ratio with the AI's in general and the Drath in particular? Your military ratio is listed in the bar graphs under the Stats & Graphs tab of your Civilization Manager.

Generally if you have a 3 to 1 military might ratio or better then you're pretty safe. That doesn't mean that if you do something like leave a transport parked next to someone's planet that they won't go to war with you but even if that were the case they should be very willing to accept a peace offer from you once you get around to talking with them.

If your ratio is less than 3 to 1 then it's not of any benefit. If you can get it to 10 to 1 then when you do decide to go to war and then offer peace you can get all sorts of concessions from the AI along with the peace.

It's all dependent on your military might ratio.

There's also some possibility that the Drath's Super Manipulator ability might be kicking in here. I give all my AI opponents Super Breeder so I'm not used to playing against Super Manipulator. Another issue is the Drath's 30% intrinsic diplomacy bonus. Your relative diplomacy ability also definitely comes into play here as well.

Again I specifically choose my 9 opponents which leaves 2 that I don't usually play against. The Terrans and Krynn both have a 25% diplomacy bonus while the Drath have a 30% diplomacy bonus. I automatically leave out the Drath and the Terrans because of this and leave the Krynn because they're such good colonizers.

Still even with all these qualifiers I would be surprised that with at least a 3 to 1 military might advantage that even if the Drath did declare war on you that you couldn't essentially get them to immediately accept a peace offer.


One thing I should make clear is that I have pretty much exclusively played DL for most of my time playing GC2. It's only fairly recently that I've moved over to DA. I find spies and in particular the speed nerfage an extreme annoyance. I've yet to really have to deal with spies since I pretty much wipe out the AI's before the end of the first year but the speed thing really decreases my enjoyment of the game. It just takes so long for anything to get anywhere particularly if you prefer gigantic galaxies as I do.