Another rage-post (with fair questions asked)

I'm very aware this is probably the 300th post that sounds like a bunch of complaining, but please hear me out. I'd like to describe my personal opinion on the state of this game. I want to give what I think is a fair summation of what the situation has been like from the beginning (well, Beta). And I also have a few genuine and legitimate questions for anyone who might have their answers. First, let me state two things clearly.

 

1) I have strongly supported Demigod from the very beginning, and I still do.

2) I'm not making this post to complain but rather to ask what I think are legitimate questions. I just want some honest, direct answers. I don't see too many among the mess of posts around here, and I'd just like some answers for the things I've been wondering about.

 

Now for the spiel. I'm just realizing this will probably be a long post and I expect the vast majority of people who click the link to get here will look at the length and be like "Whoah, I'm not reading that much, cya." That's totally understandable lol. I don't expect almost anyone to care to read this whole thing. I'm just frustrated enough that I want to finally write the things I've wanted to say, even if nobody will read them.

 

I preordered months before Beta 1 and have been reading around the forums to see what people have been saying about the game. Observations, questions, criticisms, all that. I like to see all the opinions and ideas people have. From the very beginning, from Beta 1 till now (and even still) I have had faith in this game and its developers. I respect GPG. Dungeon Siege is one of the most fun games I've ever played. Simple but addictive. I think DS2 was great too, so I trusted GPG knew what to do with creating Demigod. All the early signs looked good to me. Beta stages started simple and skeletal but with each next stage the game filled out a little bit more. Yes, there were bugs, and of course, a lot of unbalanced things and exploits. This is the first Beta I've ever been a part of but even I know that these things are par for the course in those early stages. The point is that the ideas were there and the gameplay had a lot of potential, and for months and months I was SUPER excited.

 

Release day. Wow. I don't need to summarize that. A lot of people on here were present for it. No more words need to be wasted describing it. Release didn't faze me a bit. This stuff happens. A lot of people blamed pirates. I'm one of those who believe that wasn't the chief problem. Stardock just did not foresee the load their servers would be taking. I forgive them. Nobody's perfect. Their system of connecting players was totally insufficient and just utterly unpractical. Everyone recognized this, including them. They admitted it. I respect Frogboy for apologizing time and again; most companies avoid doing that. They got to work looking for a better solution. This was not a game with a ton of funding and a big team working on it (as far as I've heard). It would take time for a solution to be found. People have been having connection issues from the beginning and it's taken a long time, but bit by bit the system has been modified to work better. I'm sick and tired of people saying 'nothing has improved at all.' That's just ridiculous. The reality is a lot more people have been able to connect. And it's still getting better. Yes, for some it's gotten worse again, but by and large it's all improving. I think a lot of people overlook the fact that the people who aren't having connection problems rarely write posts saying that. Of course you're going to see posts by those who can't play. But those who can aren't gonna just write a post saying that. I hope people keep in mind that there are far more people who are connecting just fine, especially now, than there are who aren't. And Stardock still tries to pay attention to individual problems with routers and setups and such. That's nice. You don't see too many big-wigs caring about individuals anymore.

 

Progress HAS been made. But there is a LONG way to go, too. Everybody here recognizes that. The bitching doesn't end on these forums. There's a lot of nasty useless talk, but also a lot of fair complaints. I've been one of the lucky people who haven't had any connection problems online. Never did. I never doubted tons of people had trouble, but I was thankful that I didn't have any issues myself. That said, the game's problems beyond connectivity still plagued me of course as they did everyone else. We're all using the same build; we're all experiencing the same issues. We've all seen the ability bug and all the other annoying and game-breaking bugs, and random crashes and stupid things that shouldn't be happening. Nobody's happy about it. I'm not either. I've been very patient. I've had faith in GPG and Stardock. I think they really are trying. This business about refunds is really admirable too. Who the hell does that anymore? That said, today I finally blew up. I've had crashes before from lobbies, and some in-game. Lobby crashes were usually due to me alt-tabbing, so I stopped doing that. Never wanted to risk alt-tabbing in-game, so I dunno what would happen there. But for the most part I haven't had too many crashes. The ones I HAVE had in-game though were very frustrating. It broke a fun experience in my day.

 

Today it happened again. First time in a LONG while. I was in a 2v2 on Crucible and my teammate and I were losing since the beginning. We were up against a Rook and Regulus that were working together pretty well. I actually expected my teammate to quit after a few of his deaths (as so very very very many do) but he didn't. That was pretty cool. I felt pretty sure we were going to lose, but I don't like to quit on a teammate who hasn't quit on me yet. So I stuck it out. And so did he. And holy shit. The tide started turning ever so slowly. They'd been slowly pushing us back and were now assaulting our set of towers just in front of our valor flag, but finally we got a couple key kills on them and we started to push out again with our reinforcements. I can't describe the next 15 minutes. They were insane. It was back and forth. All four of us died a few times. We were barely holding our own but at one point my teammate and I (can't remember his name) killed both guys and we sprinted out to recapture the artifact flag and we each bought mageslayer. When we came back to fight the game was really getting different, and we began to force them to retreat more and more and we got a few more kills in (we still died a few times along the way). It was just so intense. Oh, if anybody's curious I was a Beast and my partner was a Regulus. Eventually I got Ashkandor (enemy Reg had one too) and then we really picked up the pace and were pushing them steadily back to their towers and busting down tower after tower. It was so exciting. I tp'ed back to base for a few potions and more scrolls, then went back to join in again near their valor flag. We were just coming up to the Valor flag together, my teammate and I and I was feeling that epic comeback feeling rising up in me and then my screen blinked a couple times, my resolution changed, my desktop background came up, and I saw a giant box of text and read Unhandled Exception. I blinked myself. And then I sat bolt upright and ran my hands through my hair and groaned angrily the way I imagine cavemen did long ago. I was so fucking pissed. For a whole minute there I was angrier than I've been in a long time. Actually I was going to write this post hours ago, right after that happened, but I decided to force myself to wait and cool down and write something reasonable instead of a rant, because God knows we've all seen enough ranting on these forums. It was just so extremely frustrating to just suddenly be torn out of a game that had been and would still be so good. I only ever had one other comeback that was about as extreme as this one. This match was incredible. And suddenly, before I could see it through and feel fulfilled in achieving what I had fought so hard for for 45 minutes, it was just suddenly gone and I was staring at a bunch of text that to me equated to the computer saying "LOLOLOL YOU JUST GOT PWNED FOR NO REASON HAHAHA SUCK ON IT LULZ."

 

Anyway. You get the idea. A bunch of questions started going through my head. I'll try to put them coherently, because at the time they just flooded so fast and violently I didn't know which ones were important or fair. Please, anyone who thinks they have some insight to these things, please tell me what you think. Let's see...

 

Why do random crashes like that happen? I haven't had an in-game crash in a long while. Why then? Some extremely specific scenario happened, some series of events happened right in succession that the game didn't know how to handle and it died instantly? How does that happen? I did some Java programming a while back but I don't know how large-scale clients like this work. Can someone give me a general example of why this stuff happens? Why now after so long without any trouble? What could possibly have happened that game to make it crash that didn't happen in others before it? If I have no idea what I'm talking about and there's some other reason these crashes happen, enlighten me. I'm not proud. I don't presume to know much. That's why I'm finally posting these questions. I'm frustrated enough now to take the time to ask them.

 

This is the one that really bothers me. As soon as 1.01 was released people were clamoring about TONS of stuff that was still broken, and even some stuff that was now broken that wasn't before. Wtf? I actually noticed the update just minutes after it went live, and immediately started playing to see if anything was noticeably different. My very first game my question was answered. I was playing UB and the very first spit I tried on someone didn't work. I didn't understand what happened. As the game went on I saw the pattern. I made a post about it here (don't worry it's tiny and a quick read) so I won't waste more of your time describing it in this post. There were other things that were immediately obvious about this new build that were wrong that weren't wrong before. This is the kind of thing that boggles my mind. How the fuck do the devs not see this stuff if they're testing the build before releasing it? 1.01 was an important build. It's the first big one by GPG since launch. It's the one that was supposed to fix a lot of glaring issues. Everyone was waiting for it to finally get made and be released. I got a very clear impression that Stardock/GPG recognized that this build was important and that it was important to get it right and not to rush it out. There were a few signs. Last Thursday Brad said something in a journal about them having the build almost completed and said that he didn't know whether they'd release it tomorrow (Friday) because they wanted to test it more fully. Sounds good! Test away! Get it right! I assumed that because he said such a thing about Friday that it would probably come out on Monday if not Friday. Monday rolled along. Nothing. 'That's fine,' I thought. They must still have been looking at it. Fine by me. I'm patient. This build is big and very important. I'm perfectly willing to wait for it so they can get it right before releasing it to the community. I'm sure they'd like to avoid as much bitching about broken crap as they can. So another day of waiting didn't bother me at all.

Tuesday. I'd read Tuesday's journal and went on to play Demigod not long after the journal was out and the game already asked me to update. Awesome! It's out! I quit, open Impulse, update, and load the game. I get online and start a custom game. I play. And within the first three minutes of gameplay I run into an extremely obvious and glaring bug. See above link. I couldn't believe it. 'Seriously? That quick? I just started playing and already I hit a bug?' And this is a very monumental bug. And I went on forums soon after to see if I was alone. I wasn't. I read that the Sedna bug and others were still being experienced. Wtf? Seriously? How does this happen? I almost see 1.01 as a make-or-break build for a portion of the Demigod community because people have been clamoring about all these problems since the beginning and this build was promised to solve many of them. I fear that a fair number of people who were already really frustrated about the game will ditch it altogether after seeing that the build they hoped would solve their problems has solved a few, has not solved a few, and has made a lot of new ones. Again, I fear this. I don't want it to happen. I don't want people to quit on Demigod. I love this game. It is so much fun. But in a way I can't blame them too much anymore. I've always stood by this game. I hardly ever made posts, but when I read people losing faith in the game and GPG/Stardock I would silently say 'Aw, please just hang in there, they're working hard on it, they'll get it working right eventually, just give them time.' But now, after 1.01, it's very difficult for me to continue thinking that way.

I'm still going to play Demigod. I love this game. And I still believe it will get better. But I am extremely disappointed in GPG for releasing a build whose brokenness became apparent to me and many others within our first few minutes of gameplay. How do they not see these bugs if they tested before releasing??? I know they tested. I'm not doubting that. But how do they miss this? I just don't understand it. I'm not the only one who's disappointed. Many others are too, and I'm sorry to see that some are already saying they're fed up entirely now and are going to leave the community.

 

I apologize for the length of this post. It prolly got pretty redundant in a few places. I apologize for the cursing. I'm sure it doesn't help my argument when people see that. I apologize for the very pointed and fierce criticisms. I don't mean to offend anyone. I don't think I'm perfect and I don't think I could do a better job than any of them. If anyone could address some of my concerns I'd really appreciate it. And you can go ahead and flame me too (as I'm sure many would if they bother to read all this lol). I don't mind the flaming. I'm not perfect. I might be completely off-base and biased and unfair here. Go ahead and tell me. I don't want to necessarily hear that I'm right. I want to hear the truth. Cold hard facts. I want to get a more objective picture than my own inevitably skewed perspective on things. Please help me out. :D

12,547 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top

Dude gimme the coles notes.    There are posts that are too long, and then there is your post.  That is a short story.  I read a few lines here and there and it sounds like you got solid points but theres just no way in hell I'm reading all that.

Reply #2 Top

Right on Tiduz, reading on the internet is so damn uncalled for!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:thumbsdown:  

Reply #4 Top

Best of luck with Demigod!

If nothing else....remember the LAN parties man, I believe the instruction booklet even calls for throwing down some old school gaming and you can supply the only copy of the game necessary.

Reply #5 Top

Zehdon since your keen on reading maybe you can read all that and pm me the abridged version.  TYVM in advance.

Reply #6 Top

Agree with most everything the OP has to say. +1 for taking the time to articulate fully how you feel. I'm glad not every post is that long B) but I appreciated this one.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting TiduZ, reply 5
Zehdon since your keen on reading maybe you can read all that and pm me the abridged version.  TYVM in advance.

I'm hoping your mental retardation doesn't prevent you from understanding.

+1 Loading…
Reply #8 Top

I'm hoping your mental retardation doesn't prevent you from understanding.
k1

 

 

Back to the post, i also love Demigod, but some details are hard to excuse, the connectivity mess was largely unpredictable and stardock worked hard to solve it, i can't honnestly ask for more. But bugs like the ability not activating were known during the beta, and releasing an online game with such a bug is hard to excuse.

Since the last update, my favor is correctly recorded, so i started playing a little again, but i am still waiting for some improvements before really coming back to the game.

 

 

Reply #9 Top

"Why do random crashes like that happen? I haven't had an in-game crash in a long while. Why then? Some extremely specific scenario happened, some series of events happened right in succession that the game didn't know how to handle and it died instantly? How does that happen? I did some Java programming a while back but I don't know how large-scale clients like this work. Can someone give me a general example of why this stuff happens?"

I found a question so I will attempt to answer it.

An unhandled exception is where you have made some logical error while programming something. In the case of Java, an exception you would no doubt have come across would be the "ArrayIndexOutOfBounds" exception (iirc, it's been a while).

You would know that once you hit this, you program will promptly stop and spit out something akin to a stack trace to your console.

When using C++ under windows, an exception will make a dialogue box saying what it is, and also a stack trace and a printout of the program's address space. This means absolutely nothing to most people, but if you're the developer you can see from the stack trace what conditions led to the exception and you can thus start to debug with some idea of where the problem is.

The reason for the "unhandled" keyword is that in Java you would have seen the syntax 

try

{

}

catch

{

}

this is going to attempt to execute the code in the try section, and if an exception is raised the code in the catch section will execute (again, iirc I don't use Java).

In this case, the exception has not beeen handled using a "catch" equivalent so it is unhandled.

Most of the time these errors are going to be memory access violations (or at least thats what I always get) which is roughly the same as a Java null pointer exception (you tried to access some piece of memory before initialising it).

You asked for an example, so here is one

Code: c++
  1. int main()
  2. {
  3. int myArray[3];
  4. <span style="white-space: pre;">myArray[5] = 0;</span>
  5. return 0;
  6. }

This would raise an exeption for accessing past the end of the address space most of the time.

(pls don't flame me if I've said something stupid about exceptions, I've only started using C++ this year)


Why now after so long without any trouble? What could possibly have happened that game to make it crash that didn't happen in others before it? If I have no idea what I'm talking about and there's some other reason these crashes happen, enlighten me.

Since there is no simple answer WHY applications crash there is no simple solution to stop them from doing so. The tiniest of errors can manifest to break execution fatally in very rare circumstances, and the multithreaded nature of modern games such as Demigod only serves to exacerbate the problem.

EDITS*15 or so: Quote didnt work :(

 

Reply #10 Top

C/C++ don't really care if you go off the end of the array.  Hence, buffer overflows.

Reply #11 Top

Just so you know, I read the entire post!

To sum it up:

New patch introduced new bugs, didn't apparently fix the Sedna bug.
No mention about the corrected bugs in the latest patch but acknowledges improved connectivity.
Wonders how devs could miss those bugs.
Still loves the game and hopes that people don't desert Demigod because of that bad patch.

That's about the gist of it.

Well, I can say that  connecting to others works better. I encountered some strange behaviour with Oaks penitence and a big slowdown in some games, but that can have different reasons. However, I personally am still quite happy with the superb quality of the game ... the connectivity was a problem but the rest of the game was incredible stable. I have seen so much worse, guys. Demigod wouldn't even make the top 100 in the most-bugged-games-at-release-list.

Introducing new bugs while "improving" the game is no new phenomenon either. Like the OP says: Stuff happens. I occasionally play UB, too, but I didn't notice the bug he described in his other post ... although I got stuck sometimes, too, which I attributed to the bad pathfinding algorithm.

In forums it's quite hard to say if the written outrage is to be seriously or not ... even the most cowardly worm suddenly develops an ego a mile wide and dares to scream out his frustration in ways unacceptable to civilized people when shielded by anonymity.  However, no one in their right minds can accuse Stardock of not caring for their community. And if those ragemongers still go on about demanding their money back because frogboy didn't personally come over to give them a blow-job as apology, then fuck'em. 

I like the game, too. I'm having a blast with it. Well spent money and I hope that more people will come to that conclusion. And I'm not afraid of lack of support at all.

Cheers!

Reply #12 Top

Even Diablo2 still has exceptions sometimes, and it's like 10 years old.

Reply #13 Top

Doesn't make it acceptable.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Sly_Squash, reply 10
C/C++ don't really care if you go off the end of the array.  Hence, buffer overflows.

Fair point. I fixed the example to be more obviously broken. I guess your point still stands that the C/C++ runtime itself isnt going to care, its more the operating system that is catching the error.

Reply #15 Top

C/C++ don't really care if you go off the end of the array.  Hence, buffer overflows.

It does care if you follow pointers and there's nothing there.  Or to memory you shouldn't be touching.  Or memory that doesn't exist.

There are far too many game crashing problems with this game.  You try to join a custom game and you get your first gamble - will the connection information even be retrieved?  If not, you quit the game and try again. 

Hey, you made it to the lobby!  Now it's roulette whether you'll connect to everyone.  Can't connect to that one guy?  Rejoin the game and try it again. 

Numerous exceptions can get generated in the lobby producing the Exception window behind the program in Windows.  Sometimes you don't even know it's happening and you can still chat in the lobby!  Oh you got an exception, game dies.  K, restart and rejoin the game.

Wow, everyone actually connected to everyone and pings are green, let's start the game!  Now the next crash could happen - hanging on the "Waiting for players" loading screen.  This one has probably happened to me the most and is the worst because it's a full freeze and control-alt-delete or alt-tab/windows key won't take control from Demigod.  You have to use not-so-well-known keyboard shortcuts to end the task without even seeing the task manager.  Fun stuff Demigod.

Holy crap, no crashes yet and the game actually started and no one got dropped!  Now you start playing the game.  At any moment for any reason the game can die from an Unhandled Exception.  Rare, but as the OP shows, possible.  Or you could lag out, but that's usually the fault of your connection, not the game.


Or you could get server split suddenly for apparently no reason.  One time a Rook on our team bought catapults from the citadel.  BAM, him and someone from the other team get server split out of the game.  No warning, no connection timeout, they're just gone.

Anytime someone leaves the game (rage quit or disconnect/crash) there's about a 25% chance they'll take at least one other person with them via server splits.  This is just insane.

Oh and then there's the final death knell, desync.  Should this occur the game becomes completely unplayable.

Congrats, you survived all the bugs and glitches and actually completed a game!  Good luck getting the favor and the win/loss to actually stick on your record.  You may find out the next day that you didn't actually win that game.  Those favor points?  Never happened.

Any of these issues alone are pretty much unacceptable in a multiplayer game, as a single crash or connection problem to anyone in the game ruins it.  Yet, here we are.

Reply #16 Top

Fred_Bonaparte and Zehdon, you guy's should get a room.  Just remember to wear a condom - we don't need any more retard babies crawling around, and we've already got our quota of noobs in Demigod.  I sheet on yo couch.

Reply #17 Top

I read it all, just for the sake of it. I understand very well your frustration. I think that thursday i've had a similar experince: was playing 2v2 on Crucible. The match was epic, it lasted 1 freaking hour and 40 minutes. And just when it was coming to an end (we were winning), my partner gets kicked out of the game (not rage quit, as we were winning) and it's replaced by retarded AI. I managed to last another 10 minutes, before losing the game. I was so pissed that i didn't play the game anymore from that day. I've waited for the patch. Patch gets released and i start a SP match to check if the ability bug is fixed. Guess what? I FIND IT IN LESS THEN 20 MINUTES OF PLAY. Not only the ability cast is broken, but my UB gets stuck in the middle of Prison. I quit the game in rage. I've had it. HOW THE HELL DID THEY MISSED THIS BUG?? NOT ONLY THIS, BUT THEY WERE TRYING TO FIX IT SO THEY SHOULD HAVE LOOKED FOR IT! WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY ENCOUNTERED IT IN A WEEK OF TEST PLAYING??? I and many people discovered it in less then a hour from the patch being released, as by the time i quited the game, other people already made threads about it on the forum.

This is really not acceptable, i can only come to the conclusion that no one actually played the damn game in that QA week. I can't explain it otherwise. I simply can't understand why, as the bug was so obvious. The patch barely fixed anything, imo. With this patch i lost almost all my hope that this game can be fixed by these people. I don't know who is to blame, SD or GPG, my guess is GPG, but in the end i don't really care.

Yes, this was also a rage post, but this is only because i love the game so much. This is the reason i'm still active on this forum. I don't care about the 40$, i just want a working game, but with the failure 1.01 patch i think this is not possible.