Terminator Salvation

Why people are missing the message

from Elemental Forums

So I saw Terminator Salvation over the weekend.  I have read many early reviews about the movie and the main critcism goes something like this: "The characters are too dull and lack emotion" (except for Marcus Wright).

Spoilers Below

When I left the movie theater I thought the same thing.  I thought that John Connor was a let-down.  I thought the world was too bland.  I thought it was really strange that nobody talked about Kate Brewster being pregnant.  I agreed with most people that the movie was all action and no heart.

Then it hit me...the word "heart".  I suddenly realized that all of the lack of emotion and "heart" in the film was intentional.  The underlying story is all about how the one character with real love and heart was the machine, Marcus Wright.

The characters, including John Connor were designed to be dull and lifeless throughout the movie.  Let me emphasize: THIS WAS BY DESIGN, not a mistake by the director.  15 straight years of war had made all the human beings lose their humanity.  Marcus Wright did not grow up in a post-apocalpytic world and even he, a criminal in his time, was more human and had more "heart" than anyone living in the current world.

John Connor had not yet become the great hero portrayed in visions of earlier movies because he had yet to learn to discern what real humanity is.  He finally learned this at the end of the movie, and gained Marcus's "heart", both physically and metaphorically.  This is the final enabler that will prepare him as the true leader of the resistance, unlike Ironside's character who gave up his humanity and, in the end, his life and position in the resistance.

The drab, gray landscape, the quarrel between the gas station tribe about giving food, the ignorance of Kate Brewster's pregnancy and the lifeless characters (other than Marcus) were all designed to describe what mankind lacked to succeed: "heart".  I'm sure there are even more metaphors in the film, they just need to be found with close examination.

When I walked out of the theater, I thought the way most reviewers do, "oh what an uninspiring, mess of a movie".  Now, I've begun to understand the hidden message here.  In my revised opinion, I now believe this movie is the best of the entire Terminator series because it has a deeper message than the previous films.  To me it is not a popcorn thriller like T1-T3, but an intense examination of the heart of a human being.  T1-T3 did not require deep thinking to "get it".  They were fun on the surface.  It's a crying shame that most reviewers are missing or ignoring this, because it means Salvation may not even make enough to break even, meaning we may not see another sequel.

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100,437 views 29 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

T2 >>> T1 > T4 >>>>> T3

Even if it was design to be heartless, then it's a boring movie. 

With the transformers2 preview in the movie and having watched tranformers 1 recently.   I actually thought I was watching transformers, especially at the gas station scene with the giant robot. 

The movie isn't bad, but it's not great either.  It's a movie I want to see, enjoy the action scenes, and forget soon.  Maybe I'm just old and jaded.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

If any movie continues after 3, you know that they are desprate and couldn't think of new ideas except of course star trek, 11 or was it 12 movies and going strong

I think Star trek is different in that at least ever movie has a different plot than the one before it unlike terminator which is still based on John Coner and machines.

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Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Blitz64, reply 1
T2 >>> T1 > T4 >>>>> T3

Even if it was design to be heartless, then it's a boring movie. 

With the transformers2 preview in the movie and having watched tranformers 1 recently.   I actually thought I was watching transformers, especially at the gas station scene with the giant robot. 

The movie isn't bad, but it's not great either.  It's a movie I want to see, enjoy the action scenes, and forget soon.  Maybe I'm just old and jaded.
End of Blitz64's quote

That's pretty much my opinion too.  Your theory is fine, and I like it.  It adds a bit more to the movie.  I really wanted to like T4, but after seeing T2 I found it to be a great disappointment.

Bara

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

T4 was pretty nice if you just wanted to see things explode. I got what I paid for, not terribly surprised I didn't get a cent more.

 

And I think you might be overanalyzing the intelligence of the plotline, particularly in relation to the target audience.

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

but the Bond movies reboot is good, so how come terminator movies can be a disappointment.  

Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

The characters, including John Connor were designed to be dull and lifeless throughout the movie. Let me emphasize: THIS WAS BY DESIGN, not a mistake by the director. 15 straight years of war had made all the human beings lose their humanity. Marcus Wright did not grow up in a post-apocalpytic world and even he, a criminal in his time, was more human and had more "heart" than anyone living in the current world.
End of quote

Hmmm....

Interesting idea; I even agree with you to a certain extent, but if the point was that everyone "lost their humanity" why not rally drive it home?

For example, when the prisoners are being loaded into the aircraft, instead of having that one guy have a meltdown, why not have him ramble on about what would happen to the humans in a creepy, dead-calm voice? Wouldn't that he can talk about their impending doom nonchallantly have better impact than, "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!"

Just my $0.02; maybe I'm ovethinking this, but the above is just my opinion.

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting General, reply 6

The characters, including John Connor were designed to be dull and lifeless throughout the movie. Let me emphasize: THIS WAS BY DESIGN, not a mistake by the director. 15 straight years of war had made all the human beings lose their humanity. Marcus Wright did not grow up in a post-apocalpytic world and even he, a criminal in his time, was more human and had more "heart" than anyone living in the current world.


Hmmm....

Interesting idea; I even agree with you to a certain extent, but if the point was that everyone "lost their humanity" why not rally drive it home?

For example, when the prisoners are being loaded into the aircraft, instead of having that one guy have a meltdown, why not have him ramble on about what would happen to the humans in a creepy, dead-calm voice? Wouldn't that he can talk about their impending doom nonchallantly have better impact than, "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!"

Just my $0.02; maybe I'm ovethinking this, but the above is just my opinion.

 
End of General's quote

I see your counter-point, but I think perhaps the loss of humanity applied more to those actually in the resistance fighting the terminators rather than the rest of the surviving population.  They had to learn to think like machines to beat them.

Another example I thought of is the fighter pilot (what was her name, Moon?).  When she first crashed and was stuck in the telephone pole, she was acting very unfriendly.  I remember that she got agitated when Marcus tried to help her out of her parachute.  Later, however, as she got to know Marcus, she recovered some of her humanity (which led to her helping him escape).

Maybe I'm just reading too much into this, but it seriously makes the movie more interesting for me to believe that there was a point to how dry the major characters were.  It also seems to fit nicely with the heart transplant event at the end.

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

What I would like to know is why the machines captured the teenager (can't remember his name for the life of me), realized who he was, and then, rather than execute him, used him as a trap for John Connor. Killing him right then and there would remove John Connor from the timeline, thus solving their problem.

 

And how did they know who he was, anyways? Did they send a terminator to themselves to warn them that he would travel back in time and impregnate Sara Connor? I dunno. The plot was a wee bit silly, but still a pretty nice movie.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

I just finished to see this movie like 20 minuts ago
and i must admit, this is a shit movie!
it starts and ends with a man who is a mashine but with a heart and brain or something like that
now as i undarstand he was PROGRAMMED for spying operations and spacial missions
yet somehow hes like "FU i am a human and ill do whatever i want" and then he just shoot things.
which is wierd considering the fact that if he is PROGRAMMED then he cant nor wont resist it (why should he?)

Now at the end they say that the only thing that makes us to who we are is our heart
well considering the fact that our hart is just a blood pump, it could be the same
as if they just said "we are better then the mashines because we have a pump and they dont" (lol)

Now YES i undarstand that its about more then just our heart, its about spirit and will and all this crap
but mashines can have it too, and we see it from the half human half mashine cheracter,
so in fact there is no differance at all!

If any of you ever read some phylosophical articles about who we are and all this
then you will undarstand that we are just a bilogical mashines and the only diffarance
is that we are biological while robots are mechanical.

anyways, this movie may seem like its a good deep movie, but it is only for people
who dont know shit about biology, phylosophy, or programming.
unfortunatly those who do know this stuff, like myself, this movie is a shallow piece of crap...

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

If any of you ever read some phylosophical articles about who we are and all this
then you will undarstand that we are just a bilogical mashines and the only diffarance
is that we are biological while robots are mechanical.
End of quote

LOL

This statement contradicts itself. We are not merely biological machines because we have the capacity to philosophise and think etc.

Your statement is philosophy which proves that we are not merely biological machines, but have conscienceness.

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting JuleTron, reply 10

If any of you ever read some phylosophical articles about who we are and all this
then you will undarstand that we are just a bilogical mashines and the only diffarance
is that we are biological while robots are mechanical.


LOL

This statement contradicts itself. We are not merely biological machines because we have the capacity to philosophise and think etc.

Your statement is philosophy which proves that we are not merely biological machines, but have conscienceness.
End of JuleTron's quote

wtf, dude do you even know what "philosophy" means?
let me guess, you think its all about spirituality or some other crap like that?

Actually i am corrently writing a book (yes i am the author)
where i will explain that your "conscienceness" or self awarness is no more then an illusion!
for excample, the only reson you like girls is because your high testostorone levels combines with some other hormons
that effect the way you see the world around you, NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE A BOY! (i.e someone with a dick).
Your brain automaticly seeks for sighns such as the female body structure, when it find something suitble enough,
a long sequance of electric, hormonalic, and chemical reactions starts which then it forces you to "exmine" this
girl for longer time, to "find interest" in her and so on...
Your boddy also prepares itself for sex without you even knowing it, by rising the blood preasure
and incersing the levels of some hormons (which results in a wierd feeling in your tummy).
Those acts also effect your heart, that is why people tend to think that love is comming from the heart

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

let me guess, you think its all about spirituality or some other crap like that?
End of quote

No. The mind is simply a part of the brain.

Anyway, what is the point of that rant? You continue to prove my point becuase machines and other animals do not question the meaning of their existance.

for excample, the only reson you like girls is because your high testostorone levels combines with some other hormons
End of quote

This means nothing. I can interpret that fact any way that I like. Its a pointless statement. Your example is merely instinct, not thought.

The fact that you claim that self-awarness is an illusion proves my point yet again because that means we had to come up with the concept of an illusion in the first place. We had to think to come up with that.

Humans seek to understand themselves which is unique. Wow, you are writing a book. Fools and frauds write books. It does not make you smart or prove that you are right.

All these processes are chemical reactions in the brain, but so what? that only proves that are minds are the product of very complex chemical reactions. It does not support your point at all.

Your "counter-argument" actually supports mine, LOL. The fact that you came up with that idea proves what I'm saying.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

It was sub-par. 

If you have to think and puzzle out the good about it, then it was sub-par.  Sorry.

And I HATED that "Blair" needed to be saved, thus propelling the love story aspect.  Damsel in distress.  Barf.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting CocaColaAddict, reply 11


"...it starts and ends with a man who is a mashine but with a heart and brain or something like that
now as i undarstand he was PROGRAMMED for spying operations and spacial missions
yet somehow hes like "FU i am a human and ill do whatever i want" and then he just shoot things.
which is wierd considering the fact that if he is PROGRAMMED then he cant nor wont resist it (why should he?)..."

"...Actually i am corrently writing a book (yes i am the author)
where i will explain that your "conscienceness" or self awarness is no more then an illusion!
for excample, the only reson you like girls is because your high testostorone levels combines with some other hormons
that effect the way you see the world around you, NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE A BOY! (i.e someone with a dick).
Your brain automaticly seeks for sighns such as the female body structure, when it find something suitble enough,
a long sequance of electric, hormonalic, and chemical reactions starts which then it forces you to "exmine" this
girl for longer time, to "find interest" in her and so on...
Your boddy also prepares itself for sex without you even knowing it, by rising the blood preasure
and incersing the levels of some hormons (which results in a wierd feeling in your tummy).
Those acts also effect your heart, that is why people tend to think that love is comming from the heart..."

End of CocaColaAddict's quote

With spelling/grammatical errors like that (and the highlighted are just a very few of them), if you are an author then I am Mickey Mouse!

Translation: LOLWTFSCRUB! YuO lOs3!!! AHAHAH!!!

My advice? Hire an extremely patient editor before you ever decide to publish.

-Itharus

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

Wait...

Quoting Itharus, reply 15

Quoting CocaColaAddict, reply 11

"...it starts and ends with a man who is a mashine but with a heart and brain or something like that
now as i undarstand he was PROGRAMMED for spying operations and spacial missions
yet somehow hes like "FU i am a human and ill do whatever i want" and then he just shoot things.
which is wierd considering the fact that if he is PROGRAMMED then he cant nor wont resist it (why should he?)..."
"...Actually i am corrently writing a book (yes i am the author)
where i will explain that your "conscienceness" or self awarness is no more then an illusion!
for excample, the only reson you like girls is because your high testostorone levels combines with some other hormons
that effect the way you see the world around you, NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE A BOY! (i.e someone with a dick).
Your brain automaticly seeks for sighns such as the female body structure, when it find something suitble enough,
a long sequance of electric, hormonalic, and chemical reactions starts which then it forces you to "exmine" this
girl for longer time, to "find interest" in her and so on...
Your boddy also prepares itself for sex without you even knowing it, by rising the blood preasure
and incersing the levels of some hormons (which results in a wierd feeling in your tummy).
Those acts also effect your heart, that is why people tend to think that love is comming from the heart..."

With spelling/grammatical errors like that (and the highlighted are just a very few of them), if you are an author then I am Mickey Mouse!

Translation: LOLWTFSCRUB! YuO lOs3!!! AHAHAH!!!

My advice? Hire an extremely patient editor before you ever decide to publish.

-Itharus
End of Itharus's quote

Wasn't that a sarcastic post? I think the mistakes were on purpose in relation to the nature of the post he quoted...

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting pseudomelon, reply 16


With spelling/grammatical errors like that (and the highlighted are just a very few of them), if you are an author then I am Mickey Mouse!

Translation: LOLWTFSCRUB! YuO lOs3!!! AHAHAH!!!

My advice? Hire an extremely patient editor before you ever decide to publish.

-Itharus

 

Wasn't that a sarcastic post? I think the mistakes were on purpose in relation to the nature of the post he quoted...

End of pseudomelon's quote

Or perhaps english isn't his first language. There are a lot of people on this forum who speak different languages.

 

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

I wanted to make the font large so you'd know
; I thought although I disagreed on many parts, this post was very insightful.  +1 Karma

Reply #19 from Demigod Forums Top

By the way a book like that has already been written.
I forget what its called but it examines the need for duelism, and conciousness in creatures who's genes are driven by sexual selection.  In Los Vegas Institute of Sexology (yes a real school) it is a required read.  It claims that we believe we are fully concious of our actions instinctively.  And that we are instinctive duelist (scycological term referring to the belief that we are seperate from our bodies) often to help overcome the challenges presented by sexual selection.  (The need to sometimes do stupid things)

idk a scyc teacher suggested I read it for college a couple of years ago.  I got through the whole thing but most of it was boring so not much of it registered in my memory properly, but the parts that were interesting were very interesting.

Reply #20 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Texas, reply 13
It was sub-par. 

If you have to think and puzzle out the good about it, then it was sub-par.  Sorry.

And I HATED that "Blair" needed to be saved, thus propelling the love story aspect.  Damsel in distress.  Barf.
End of Texas's quote


I disagree, a movie you dont have to think about is uninteresting.  For example; most of the american pie movies are just guys doing gross stupid shit to get laid, very uninteresting.  The original terminators often degraded into just a robot chasing after a kid, really does not stay entertaining long.  Mirrors, some bitch got trapped in a mirror somehow and is angry.  Any Pixar movie, pretty much someone mean meets someone nice, learns something, and is happy in the end, but not before being chased around by some rediculously unambitious villain.
Although I'm not one who sees movies just to chase after the depth of their meaning.  Its boring if you dont have to think about the directors intent a little bit.  Really how much has to be just presented for you to understand and enjoy it.  Its like Angels and Demons if you ever saw that, every 10 minutes Tom Hanks would have to stop and explain some rediculous theory for you to follow that begun to get so long winded it began to become a monologue.

Watch angels and demons some time and you'll see what I mean.   Not thinking becomes very boring>

Plus the action seens were saweeeeet

 

Reply #21 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Texas, reply 14
PS - plot holes
End of Texas's quote


I resent this comment only because most movies have plot holes.  Its kind've pointless pointing that out unless their actually large enough to completely ruin the movie.

Reply #22 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting CocaColaAddict, reply 9

anyways, this movie may seem like its a good deep movie, but it is only for people
who dont know shit about biology, phylosophy, or programming.
unfortunatly those who do know this stuff, like myself, this movie is a shallow piece of crap...
End of CocaColaAddict's quote


roflmao....   I watch alot of movies
And I have to say if you cant get over the fact that you really need to ignore you previous knowledge to enjoy them.  Then maybe your just not equipped to watch them.

Watch Angels and Demons and actually look at the physics behind antimatter

In the movie it explodes in some rediculous scene that I cant even explain.
If you look at the real life facts.  As soon as you let antimatter off its reins it immediatly combines with the closest matter it can come in contact with and dissappears.

Let it go, enjoy the movie, its entertainment, not philosophy, why not watch family guy as a substitute for religion?

Reply #23 from Demigod Forums Top

While I can understand your thinking Ilumino, even if this was intentionally done the movie still fails because it didn't present this in an entertaining way. All movies must entertain otherwise they fail at presenting what people go to the movies for; entertainment. Movies like 1984, Soylent Green and even Equalibrium present what this movie was possibly trying to present in a far better way.
Personally, the Terminator series ended with number Two. I refuse to acknowledge Terminator 3, Salvation and the god-awful TV series because, frankly, they're a mess of ideas and words attempting to milk what money they can from Cameron's original concepts and they completely fail to grasp the underlying message present in the first two films; the future is what you make it. Nothing is set in stone.

Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting ZehDon, reply 23
While I can understand your thinking Ilumino, even if this was intentionally done the movie still fails because it didn't present this in an entertaining way. All movies must entertain otherwise they fail at presenting what people go to the movies for; entertainment. Movies like 1984, Soylent Green and even Equalibrium present what this movie was possibly trying to present in a far better way.
Personally, the Terminator series ended with number Two. I refuse to acknowledge Terminator 3, Salvation and the god-awful TV series because, frankly, they're a mess of ideas and words attempting to milk what money they can from Cameron's original concepts and they completely fail to grasp the underlying message present in the first two films; the future is what you make it. Nothing is set in stone.
End of ZehDon's quote


I couldn't agree more
but what is entertaining is a matter of opinion in the end
and the general concesus of reviews tends to be 50/50
and if thats enough for a complete fail then this game is beyond fail...  Maybe amongst epic fails
I would say that makes terminator decent, and this game sub-par.

Reply #25 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting ZehDon, reply 23
While I can understand your thinking Ilumino, even if this was intentionally done the movie still fails because it didn't present this in an entertaining way. All movies must entertain otherwise they fail at presenting what people go to the movies for; entertainment. Movies like 1984, Soylent Green and even Equalibrium present what this movie was possibly trying to present in a far better way.
Personally, the Terminator series ended with number Two. I refuse to acknowledge Terminator 3, Salvation and the god-awful TV series because, frankly, they're a mess of ideas and words attempting to milk what money they can from Cameron's original concepts and they completely fail to grasp the underlying message present in the first two films; the future is what you make it. Nothing is set in stone.
End of ZehDon's quote

*drool* did you not see the explosions in that movie?! :drool:

 

Yeah, ok, let's put it to bed one last time.

Terminator Salvation is not a particularly smart movie. The plot holes are numerous. The characters are flat and static. However, the explosions, action, and environmental/robot designs were pretty epic.

Oh. So it's an action movie. Big surprise there.