Nerfs UN-FIXING the game

Sadly it is turning to that.

Both repulsion and illums have alraedy been nerfed.  They dont need yet more nerfing.  Subverters do pretty good breaking up a battleball.  It should also be mentioned that assailants outrange illuminators by a decent margin and should be able to kill them even with push.  Plus they have a decent chance of skipping shields with their phase missles to hit advent's already thin hulls.  It is annoying to get pushed around yes but also annoying to have a couple of subverters neutralize your entire fleet except for strikecraft and caps.  If you are gonna nerf guardians you might as well nerf subverters too and make them more in line with the near useless domina(single target, channelled disable).  Nerf nano too so my caps dont tear like tissue paper against assailants and strike craft.  Also nerf marza cause such easily widespread destruction is too powerful for one ship and the hoshis too since they keep it alive for much to long and easily.  Nerf everything thats made me lose in the past!!!  That way I don't have to think too hard to win.   Ohhhh but wait.....that wouldn't be any fun.

Every race has their overpowered spots and weak spots that can be exploited.  It can be annoying for someone to beat you black and blue with what seems like relative ease.  Some things do occasionally need a tweak here and there.  Illums and iconus already had their beat down and don't need it again.  They are beatable.  I should know since its happened many times to me.   Its not impossible to beat subverters, repulse or marzas.  Its just damned annoying at times.

[_]-Greyfox

here's an idea, how about axing the whole concept that makes certain units spammable?

or at least put in a new mechanic that overrides current weaknesses, such as flanking a ship - lets say a LRF (i.e. attacking a single ship from 2 diff sides) will makes its shields drop twice as fast, and does more damage/quicker than a fighter attack?

cause i seriously have to say, thats whats stopping me from playing MP, the stupid exploitation of 'loopholes' (for lack of a better term) winning games.

if it was micromanagement winning a game, i wouldnt mind, thats just skill and kudos to you, but spamming certain units to win cheaply and easily... bleh

True true ture,

Tec doesn't have subverters at all think about what they should think.  It's counterable with like 250 lrm's... 

Serious now, it does need a nerf. The basic thing bout illums is also that they can just keep running through your fleet and you can keep turning and turning and turning... But grey has a point too every race has it's overpowered things.

Grtz,
Flipkik 

For TEC their is almost nothing you can do ecept have a force atleast 3 times the size but even then it'S not very likely youll win. And even a Marza will not be able to help.

They need to undo the carrier nerf. Game was much better then then it is now. At least you could counter and murder carrier spamers.

SC won't touch a descent battleball. You'll need lrms or something else that takes it appart. In the hands of a skilled it will even slaughter skilled players that know the counter.

For the vasari guys... Vasari starbases are imuune to repulsion I think.

Grtz,
[_]-Flipkik 

What if they just put a spam penalty into the game, like Rise of Nations did?  Seems to me LRM spam has always been a problem with this game, as not much can handle them when spammed in large numbers.  However if costs started to go up after your Xth LRM, people would be forced to start diversifying or suffer from a smaller fleet.  It wouldn't stop people from spamming if they wanted to, but would punish mindless spam.

And before and 'pros' say, "but you can beat spam.", obviously there isn't enough of a deterrent to spamming if people keep going it every game.

"People" don't keep going to it every game.  I couldn't tell you the last game I spammed only 1 unit.  This post isn't about spam anyways.  It is about Tyr thinking illums and guardians together in a battle ball with other stuff is overpowered.  If there were no carriers or flak in with the battleball then carriers could end it easily.  

[_]-Greyfox 

YEAH!NERF REPULSION!!! REDUCE ITS RANGE TO 5000!!!

This is taken from the unit reference charts on the strategy page.

Illum range - 5520           Javelis range - 9800       Assailant range - 7820

Iconus push range - 7500

As you can see, assailants and javelis outrange what the iconus can push.  Illums have to be a little farther out to hit anything but even at maximum range for the push other race's LRF can still hit stuff.  Push works best against HC and caps.  Even pushing away maximally marza missle barrage can still hit and have lots of room left over at 10k range. 

[_]-Greyfox

Apparently there are two threads for this...So here it goes again:

Guardians are harder to kill because they are meant to be damage sponges per their main ability.  Considering they have a thin hull underneath the huge amount of shields, kanrak and strike craft from vasari make short work of them as I repeat.....they outrange the push.  TEC have a little more trouble admittedly but javelis outranges everything and easily outranges the push.  TEC hate it because they dont get to use their tough kodiaks and hoshis which are the center of their fleet.  Marza easily outranges push.  Tyr's OP states that nerfs are unfixing the game but suggests his own nerf in the process which to me sounds somewhat hypocritical.  There are already solutions to a battle ball just as there are for lots of things in this game.  A battle ball is a helluva lot harder to get together and make work than a Marza.  It's harder to get working than an egg, kanrak spam, with a few flak or carriers thrown in.  Vasari SB totally ignores the push and starbases in general can counteract it one way or another.  There is no need for a nerf.

[_]-Greyfox

Well Flak are fine. Just need to undo the rebuild penalty on carriers and you'll be fine. When i saw the pena;ty my first reaction was wow their insane, and it was an insane penalty.

Flak are fine against SC, so carriers are not quite obsolete. The build penalty should be smaller though.

I do think that Subverters need a significant boost. Distortion Field has should cost 125 AM, have 8000 range and last 25 secs.The last nerf was insanely big. Vasari currently get no powerful support cruisers.

Overseers are fine imo, except for their upgradeable abilities are horrible. Why spend so much money on Mobile Pase Detection when a teir 1 upgrade does the same thing AND is better? The Overseer's upgradeable abilities need to be redesigned.

im just wondering, what is effective VS the actual carrier? like, flak is good vs SC, but any ship, including SC, can destroy a flak frig, while only flaks and other SC can take down SC, meaning there are already many more threats shortening a Flak frig lifespan. AND, you can destroy all the SC you want, but until you destroy the carrier, it'll never end, so whats is the counter to the actual carrier?

Rezonator--Light frigates--Cobalts, Disciples, and Skirmishers.

Vasari have no problems with Repulse. The weak-hulled Guardians are easily taken down with Assailants and upgraded Phase Missiles since Assailants outrange both Illuminators and Repulse. Advent have a really hard time fighting upgraded Phase Missiles because they effectively counter their main strength and eat caps for breakfast.

And the Vasari starbases are incredibly useful all around and they are quite immune to Repulse.

Still in the end this game is turning back to what it wa sins 1.5. An advent only game.

I still see plenty of people, plenty of experienced players, who play Vasari and TEC.

They didnt meet Tha Advent yet (:

The game has never been advent only.  Even in 1.05 it was far from advent only.  Now and back then there are plenty of good and bad players that play other races.

[_]-Greyfox 

Lol yeah epople who just didn't want to pickt he strongest race because it was the strongest kept playing the otehr races. But it was an advent game. And turning into it again. The balance we had before the carrier was the best balance the game had even had.

The current change is a clear step back in the wrong direction.

It should be noted that one of the reasons for playing Vasari in the past was the possibility of being able to get Returning Armada, but that's been neutered ever since v1.1, making the Advent relatively more attractive.

well, due to a corrupt install and security software, i haven't played yet, but looking at this, im probally not gonna play multi-player. still, looking around, im probally gonna end up a tec player simply because the only times i spam is with something horribly stupid yet cheap and durable, rather than a good idea. tec supports that. but the advent seem like something im gonna fear terribly in my first game (which should be tommorow)

I don't build subverters since the nerf as I get at best one use of them before they die - too expensive for that.

Incidently I haven't used RA since the change to cost based - too hard to get the labs up and research done while I need to put that money into starbases or actually having a fleet to do stuff with.

Apart from the mobile SB, it seems harder to be vassari then it used to be as the flak rips the fighters apart and assailants cost make it hard to outproduce TEC and advent seem to love moving so they can use their side beams... Until you can get a break and get trade (lvl 4), your econ hurts big time (and selling extra resources is not a complete offself - I would rather have 1-2 resources a second less and 20-30 credits extra...