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Getting back to Elemental

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Getting back to Elemental

from JoeUser Forums

Midleavel_Farm_Test2 As Elemental players know, I had been on Elemental since early this year. Then…Demigod was released and the online experience for that game has been a total cluster.  So I had to “assign myself” to Demigod to figure out what the deal was and make sure it got fixed.

In my view, too many moving parts. I’m not a huge fan of multiplayer-centric games in the first place. I’m particularly not a fan of peer to peer multiplayer-centric games on the PC because on the PC, unlike on the console, the developer is stuck writing this stuff – or in Demigod’s case, the publisher had to go out and license stuff which turned out to be a disaster. 

But now my time on Demigod is starting to come to an end – at least in terms of it dominating my life.  I’m looking forward to working on a game that we’re both developing and publishing so I don’t have to take a beating for things I can’t really do anything about.

Ramifications

I had to assign both Cari and Jesse (our two top game developers) to Demigod to largely rewrite the multiplayer system. This will have an impact on Elemental’s schedule. Sorry. People paid good money for Demigod and you know me, I am not about assigning blame or caring whose fault something is so my attitude is that the problem had to be solved quickly.

They’re still on Demigod this week working with developer Gas Powered Games on a slew of new APIs that will let the game be expanded well into the future. Then they can get back to Elemental next week.

Demigod’s impact on Elemental

The good news is that because we ended up having to develop our own multiplayer module to help with Demigod, we can use that on Elemental.  Now, to be crystal clear: Elemental is a single player centric game. It will have multiplayer but to be honest, I’m not willing to sacrifice a single feature of the game for multiplayer.  So if multiplayer is your main thing, you might as well stay away from Elemental.

That said, here are a few things that multiplayer in Elemental will have:

1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.

2. I’m killing off the bots concept. People hate them. I thought they were cool but they’re too much work only to be hated. So there won’t be artificial players.

3. We will support empires (clans), scheduled games, and group join from the start since those features will get added (by us) to Demigod.

Fewer moving parts

We are revisiting the way the economy works in Elemental to simplify it.  There’s been some positive developments that I can’t talk about yet. The short version though is there will be likely be a lot lot lot more story to Elemental than anything we’ve done before.  Each sand box game should feel like an epic story if we do it right. We’ll see.

Release dates

I can say that Beta 0 is not going to happen in June now.  We might be able to do an Alpha then but that will only go out to a very tiny number of people (maybe 100 tops).  I’m reserving 10 places and the rest will come from the pre-order pool as a lottery with points given to those who have GalCiv II + Sins + Demigod.  Beta 0 would likely be July at this point but I’ll know more at the end of the week.

255,294 views 150 replies
Reply #51 from Demigod Forums Top

Let's be clear on the bots:

You can have AI players in MP if you CHOOSE.

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

Reply #52 from Elemental Forums Top

So....we can have our cake and eat it too?  Cool.  I was about to add another "but I liked the bots concept", but what you describe works functionally the way I had hoped.

I was really sorry to hear about the Demigod fiasco - hopefully it won't make you reconsider Stardock's stance on DRM.  One of the chief reasons I buy from Stardock is that it's easy to play the games: no disc, no corrupting rootkits, no silly install limits after I rebuild Windows for the umpteenth time (hey, I wanted RAID-0 on my laptop, okay?).

Here's hoping for an alpha slot - cheers!

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

I kinda expected the Bot thing not to work out well.  It would be great to have bots that weren't obviously bots, but we really will hate playing with anything less even if we like seeing the work.  Even perfect might not cut it, since most humans are herd animals.

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm heartened to see the maturity of the Elemental gamers' community. On almost any other game forum, I'd have expected to see a huge outcry, wailing and gnashing of teeth over this, but you guys have taken it pretty coolly and calmly assessed the things you like and dislike about it. Kudos.

 

I hardly ever play multiplayer, so I don't think the bot issue is something I have any stake in. Depending on the economy, the simplification may or may not be a good thing, we don't really have enough information to judge. For example, if it's made into having classes of items rather than specific items in storage (say, Simple Weapon, Good Weapon, Advanced Weapon rather than club, sword and magical sword) and that the exact nature of the item is determined when it's taken from the storage in the creation of a building or unit, that sounds like an entirely satisfactory compromise between the original idea and the new for simplification. Or perhaps it's the logistics of item transport that have been simplified. We'll have to wait and see, but the extensive beta testing process gives me hope that we'll see an exceptional game come out of this. I believe the biggest single risk is the beta testing pulling the game in a million different directions, which would naturally be harmful for the coding process.

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

A pity the beta won't be til at least July now, but I'd rather it be late and *playable* than "on-time" and still broken.  Besides which, I'm probably going to have too much going on this summer to pay much attention to the game anyway, so it's pretty easy for me to be patient.  :P

 

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Let's be clear on the bots:

You can have AI players in MP if you CHOOSE.

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

Frickin' sweet!  Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.  :thumbsup:  

Granted, while I probably won't play MP a *lot*, I do like the idea of playing a match from time to time.  So this is still very good news. 

 

Reply #56 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

Thank the fuck christ that you scrapped that. I for one would hate to have AIs butting into my MP games without the players explicitly asking for them to be there.

Phew.

 

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Let's be clear on the bots:

You can have AI players in MP if you CHOOSE.

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

I think this is a smart move. Put the resources into a better AI, more people will benefit from it.

If you really want to tinker with the bot tech, which is really interesting, you can do that always after release. You could develope it as update, part of an expansion or DLC. More options for you and you would have a clearer picture of what your customers want.

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm going to be relatively content-free and say "thank you for the update."

Reply #59 from Demigod Forums Top

UPDATED : Edited due ot Frogboys last post.

 

Good to know and thanks for the sitrep! As always they are greatly appreciated. :andrew:

Reply #60 from Demigod Forums Top

I had a chat with Landisaurus on IRC about this quote last night:

1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.

To me, this sounds like you mean Online games will be hosted by you. To him, it sounds like all Multiplayer, meaning that LAN will not be available since if only you can host there can't be LAN.

I gave him a tin foil hat for now, but is there any chance of clarification on this? I don't really imagine that you'd kill off LAN capability and figure this basically just means it's a strict client-server model which wouldn't prevent someone from hosting a LAN..

Reply #61 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 10

To me, this sounds like you mean Online games will be hosted by you. To him, it sounds like all Multiplayer, meaning that LAN will not be available since if only you can host there can't be LAN.

I couldn't decide what they meant either. Hopefully they will clarify.

Reply #62 from Elemental Forums Top

Yea, I'm pretty sure he's referring to online games only, but clarification would be nice.

Brad, as much as I know you don't care for multiplayer, I have to say thank you a million times over for including it in Elemental.  I have a regular weekly LAN group that absolutely loves TBS games and it kills us we can't do GalCiv2 :)

 

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Let's be clear on the bots:

You can have AI players in MP if you CHOOSE.

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

Glad to hear this, Frogboy.  That's not really how the posts in this thread read (bear in mind I'm only just starting to follow Elemental seriously; up until now, I'd been reading only what Tridus pointed out to me specifically), at least without context external to this journal.  What you've just stated, though, is more than enough to calm my worries.  I actually like the old bots idea now that I've heard a bit about it, but I have to agree with you--I'm a minority that's not worth the effort to cater to on that one.  You've made the correct decision.

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

I love these updates Frogboy. Keep them coming.

 

As for the date of the release it takes the time it takes. No worries there.

 

As for the other news I'm gonna wait and see what more info you provide. Keep up the good work.

Reply #65 from Elemental Forums Top

Knowledge is king and we just got a ton of info from this update. 

Reply #66 from Elemental Forums Top

I was really looking forward to p2p & hotseat! Bummer news...

Reply #67 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

That is good arranagement.

One more feature is needed though.  Gamer should be able to ask an AI to join the game replacing any existing player.  Sometimes, your on-line friend stop playing and we'll need AI as substitute player for MP games.

Reply #68 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Let's be clear on the bots:

You can have AI players in MP if you CHOOSE.

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

Whew, glad that's been clarified. "Ye olde team comp-stomp" is an ancient and respected tradition in my circle of (online) friends. :cylon:  :banhammer:   

Edit: Though with Stardock's typical AI level and our typical skill/focus level it's more likely to become a human-stomp for the AI players. ^_^'   

Reply #69 from Elemental Forums Top


We are revisiting the way the economy works in Elemental to simplify it.  There’s been some positive developments that I can’t talk about yet. The short version though is there will be likely be a lot lot lot more story to Elemental than anything we’ve done before.  Each sand box game should feel like an epic story if we do it right. We’ll see.

I don't want 'more story' for EWOM.  I don't necessary want Campaign.  These things are icing on the top, not something really we want.  With extended sandbox play, story will be repeated and become boring, something that we skip right away.

One good memorable Campaign is already sufficient.  Campaign would serve as a thorough tutorial and provide some backdrop for the races SD offered.  The meat of the game is in the sandbox.

EWOM need to be a great sandbox.  Make it infinitely repayable by some combination of the following:
1) against human gamers in MP
2) against smart AI in SP
3) allow infinite number of races (from user or SD) & these races are unique in the way that how they can be played well
4) make sure each game is different because different strategy is needed; provide combos that sometimes it is great, sometimes it is not; all depending on the map or game options selected.
5) forces gamers to make strategic decisions & provide challenge throughout the game session.
6) make every game different by awesome RMG/scenario, varied game options, trade-off made when creating the Sovereign at turn 0, ability to choose a different path for victory for each game etc.
7) reduce micromanagement, reduce aspects that make gamer feel repetitive in TBS.
8) etc.

More story is not needed.  A memorable one for the Campaign is already more than I want.  Game designs that leads to varied gameplay is more important

Reply #70 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Climber, reply 19

quoting post

I don't want 'more story' for EWOM.  I don't necessary want Campaign.  These things are icing on the top, not something really we want.  With extended sandbox play, story will be repeated and become boring, something that we skip right away.

One good memorable Campaign is already sufficient.  Campaign would serve as a thorough tutorial and provide some backdrop for the races SD offered.  The meat of the game is in the sandbox.

More story is not needed.  A memorable one for the Campaign is already more than I want.  Game designs that leads to varied gameplay is more important

Couldn't disagree more.  There's a reason why names like Cloud Strife, Sephiroth and Aeris are burned into our memories.  How about Kerrigan and Jim Reynor?  Master Chief and Cortana?  2 out of three games I just mentioned have significant MP portions to them, but just about everyone played them first for the storyline.  Storyline gives you a sense of why you're there in the first place, and why do I care about this particular game.  Sandbox is very important as well, don't get me wrong, thats where the replayabilty comes in, but the art of telling a story with a game is getting a little muddled these days.  In my opinion a game without a story can only be good, but never great.

The only thing i'd like to add is though I would much rather not see the storyline be told in a GalCiv fashion.  A page worth of text followed by a pre-designed map with maybe a few pre-selected units to start with isn't the most compelling storyline.  I'd like to see it with in-game events or something more dynamic than a text page anyways.

Reply #71 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Let's be clear on the bots:

You can have AI players in MP if you CHOOSE.

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

couldn't we just kick them though?   I mean it seams reasonable to have bots join a game once, and if they are kicked have the server set not to add more.  (so the 'default' in the beta is to have bots, but players can choose to remove them).    It just seemed too benifitial to miss the concept completely.   I imagine having server based AI would have made it easier for you (SD) to work with the AI and improve them.  Are they now just being hosted on user PCs?

Reply #72 from Demigod Forums Top

Where the AI's not supposed to work in single player as well? Just require an internet connection for the new fancy AI's, that sounded cool to me.

Making those bots, could also be a great way for Stardock to get more experience with making the AI seem smarter or maybe even human?

 

What will make Elemental special now that those bots are outta the question?

From what i can read and imagen, it does sound alot like a "heroes of might and magic" clone

Reply #73 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm more of a story guy than anything else so I like my games to have a (good) story if possible. So campaign option is nice. And if there is the possibility of having some kind of stories going on in the sandbox, even better. I'd enjoy greatly to be able to create my own campaign (heavy scripted to allow branching in its development during gameplay) but also to ministories happening in my game world.

As a side note, i don't know what people sees in Sephirot. He just felt annoying and nothing special. Ammon Jerro kicks his ass anyday anytime.

Reply #74 from Demigod Forums Top

 

Now, to be crystal clear: Elemental is a single player centric game. It will have multiplayer but to be honest, I’m not willing to sacrifice a single feature of the game for multiplayer.

 

well i dont get it

i dont want a multiplayer only game but EVERY game in the 2009 has to be a good multi game

after you play with ia try different races or avatars or whatever YOU WANT to play with friends

every game actually has to tend to multi

 

 

Reply #75 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 23

As a side note, i don't know what people sees in Sephirot. He just felt annoying and nothing special. Ammon Jerro kicks his ass anyday anytime.

Heh, my point wasn't whether you like him or not, but that you'd know exactly who I was talking about. You and probably 95% of the people reading this i'd imagine :grin: