AngryZealot

Balance: Please turn down the stupid.

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Balance: Please turn down the stupid.

from Demigod Forums

Pardon the hubris, but lately I've seen a lot of inanely retarded posts regarding balance. Let's set some things straight. First we need to start with the very definition of "balance":

bal⋅ance

  –noun

1. a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.

Note the key words equal distribution. These are very important! The term balance does not directly refer to general strength -- it refers to distribution.

Let's apply this knowledge. In one post, I saw the suggestion that the Rook's towers are balanced because they are strong on maps but weak on large maps. This is an example of what I regard as an "inanely retarded post", because it's the very opposite of balance! There is a clearly unequal distribution in the strength of towers, thus it is appropriate to call them "unbalanced". It makes no claim as to their relative strength. They could be too weak or too strong or too purple or too smelly; it really doesn't matter, they are still "unbalanced". Now, to be clear, it's ok if one ability is weak on some maps as long as another ability is equally better on the same maps.

Additionally, all demigods must be equally potent on all maps, and it's pretty clear that they aren't. For example, one insightful poster noted that Erebus's bat swarm can cross gaps on Crucible and Exile that otherwise require a long trip. He (or she) did not make strong judgement to this, only pointing out that it felt unfair. That's perfectly valid criticism! Yet several people proceeded to flame or offer flawed theorycraft (eg, it's ok because you can buy a $5000+ item to get the same ability yadayada).

So this brings up a second important point. Check your theorycraft at the door. I'm tired of reading about ridiculously contrived impractical counters that never happen in real games. If you can't offer real gameplay experience, then don't post about balance.

Finally, please consider Pantheon in your posts. It is simply not OK if the counter to something on Light is also on the Light side. Same for Dark. If your post contains a contrived theorycraft counter to something on the same side, you have just posted something inanely retarded. Please stop it.

In summary:
- Balance refers to equal distribution. All demigods should be equally potent at the start of the game, regardless of map or team composition. Imbalance should result from the direct stategic actions of players.
- Theorycraft is retarded, but is usually used as the exclusive justification for balance posts.
- Pantheon matters too.

demigod
90,780 views 35 replies
Reply #26 from Demigod Forums Top

True, but there seems to be a widespread assumption that public Pantheon statistics are the only statistics that the balance team have to go on. I'd be very surprised if that were the case.

Public Pantheon stats are probably the most reliable because the random map and win conditions mean that nobody can pick the map that they're most likely to win on.  If it's truly random, then individual demigod/hero imbalances will begin to show.

Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top

Most reliable in determining what, exactly?

I'm curious about the methodology that people are using to equate win ratios with specific character imbalances.  If something was off about, say, the UB's Ooze ability, how would you gather that simply by looking at the fact that he's on top of the ladder?  If the QoT had a horribly overpowered ability but the rest of her repertoire sucked, would she be exempt from balance discussions regarding said overpowered ability?

Again, I'm guessing there are more intricate details being looked at by internal balance teams beyond simple win ratios and who's at the top of the charts on any given day. 

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Reply #28 from Demigod Forums Top

Public pantheon matches are probably totally unreliable when it comes to balance because it only allows a subset of the actual possible team combos... This is no 1vs1 game, its about the combos.

Also just because a Demigod has worse win ratios it doesn't mean it is weaker. If you are a good player you can win a game alone as regulus piling up many kills, if you are a good player playing sedna or QoT you need to rely a lot more on your team mates as you can't win the game alone.

Also some heroes are easier to play than others so as the game is still very new and QoT is by far the most complicated to play Demigod needing the most knowledge of the game and being the least forgiving to mistakes its not surprising she is lowest.

Reply #29 from Demigod Forums Top

You can't judge balance off of Pantheon when your rank, skill, or any factor which will dictate how good you are, is entirely ignored for the purpose of match making. So right then and there the stats are flawed and thus useless for any discussion that has any intention of using solid mathematical proof as it's evidence.


There. Pantheon is out.

Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top

i think you should get a bonus score up if you win with with bots on your team

Reply #31 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting ProximityFixed, reply 4
You can't judge balance off of Pantheon when your rank, skill, or any factor which will dictate how good you are, is entirely ignored for the purpose of match making. So right then and there the stats are flawed and thus useless for any discussion that has any intention of using solid mathematical proof as it's evidence.


There. Pantheon is out.

And someone crying about Erebus' bite killing them is solid mathematical proof?

Reguardless of matchups not being based on 100% player capabilities at the momment, an almost 50/50 split in wins/losses gives pretty good idea on demigod balance.

How would you find out whether a demigod is balanced or not? Its a game, with item variables, skill variables and playstyle/strategy variables. But if you want to draw up a giant spreadsheet and "mathematically" proves this, then go ahead.

Reply #32 from Demigod Forums Top

I can't believe all of these people are saying basically "you can't prove anything with numbers."  As if their anecdote about getting creamed by Erebus because they ran into the middle of his towers when he had 10 night-walkers up and he bit them so they couldn't escape fast enough has any weight...

Fact is that if you take thousands of matches by thousands of players over weeks of time, and average out the win/loss ratio, a balanced demigod should come close to 50%. Erebus comes closer to 50% than most other demigods, so Erebus is not o/p.

QED.  Anecdote is not data.  Back up your accusations with facts or GTFO.

Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top

Fact is that if you take thousands of matches by thousands of players over weeks of time, and average out the win/loss ratio, a balanced demigod should come close to 50%.

Abilities aren't rated on the pantheon.  One abilitiy overperforming isn't necessarily going to put a DG over the top in rankings. 

'Erebus' didn't get nerfed.  Bite did.  Basically, what you're suggesting is that the UB and perhaps Regulus are both overpowered at the moment and that they're the only ones who should be looked at for balancing purposes.  But what exactly is it that makes them overpowered?  How would you tell by simple win statistics?

I don't think anyone's suggesting that the numbers would lie.  Many of us think that you're just using the wrong numbers.  The fact that they're the only ones made public doesn't automatically mean that they apply.

Reply #34 from Demigod Forums Top

I will be using the general meaning of balance for my post. As in all DG's are balanced as long as they have equal chance to win all gametypes on all maps. I have no idea what the OP means by balance since he contradicts (sp?) himself in the definition.

To the OP. You are being naive (sp?). Do you honestly think that people complain about things without seeing them in action? "Hey I read somewhere that the bite has these things and sure thats op!" They are doing precisely what you are saying they should do. Suggesting balance changes based on what they have seen in the game.

The main problem with what you suggest is that if you go with experience as the guide for balancing, not only do you get lots and lots of differing data, but you will also react to the effect, not the cause. Theorycrafting even with its flaws is still better then going with feeling. Naturally you have to take all things that actually happen into account for that tho. As in if something works in theory, but not in practice, the theory is wrong and you have to test it to find out what part of it is wrong.

Btw ignoring the fact that the towers have drawbacks (such as the small thing that you have to be virtually immobile if you want to have a respectable farm) is true theorycrafting. You are ignoring some parts of reality to make your theory have merit. Now I'm not saying that the towers are fine (they are too powerful when there is no way to get around them), but I AM saying that you shouldnt nerf them based on experience of some people. Nerfing them would also be rather complex since they are the only thing holding rook up imo. I mean have you tried playing him without them?

Also about the bat swarm teleporting over impassable terrain. I think that is something there should be more of. Actually diffrent mechanics for DGs. Best would be to give it to someone else too and start making more places on maps that you can teleport over. Was going to suggest giving regulus the ability to fly over things as a similar system, but ranged DG+ability to get somewhere melee dg's cant follow would be op. This is btw a theorycrafter talking here - I dont have to have lots of experience about that - I can tell right away that giving giving regulus several places to get away from melee in all maps would make him overpowered.

One last balance thing: I'm not skilled. I am ranked like 9000+. Yet despite this, I want balancing to be done for high skilled play. Now you should naturally also try to make things balanced for the beginners too, but you cant balance things for people who dont (yet) know how to counter things. You can try to make counters as obvious as possible, but there will always be DGs or abilities that are balanced for skilled and totally OP against unskilled. If you balance them for unskilled, they either become useless or broken in skilled play. Structure transfer is a great example of this: newbies dont interrupt it so it is a LOT better against them while a good player will prevent you (well me - I said I suck..) from using it when they are in sight.

Reply #35 from Demigod Forums Top

This is what i've been saying for over 9000 years now.