You resurrected a post that hasn't seen any replies in almost two days to say that you're losing patience with it?

Pretty much.. cause he didn't add anything to the discussion either.

I so dearly wish this was true about game design. If it was we could just crunch a bunch of numbers and make the best game ever. But until you tell me how to quantify fun, game design will remain a fuzzy domain and one that can use numbers, but can't rely on them.

The data suggests that QoT needs to be buffed. Which buff do the numbers suggest? Increasing her health, mana, auto attack damage, spell cooldowns? Which spell do you buff? Do you need to nerf others to account for the increase in this one area? You can't tweak just one value and know what will happen. Changing on spell might completely change that character as well as change how all the other characters relate to that character!

Poke around here for a while to read more about why you can't balance by numbers, especially in a asymmetrical game: http://www.sirlin.net/.

No offense, but I think some of you are really overthinking this.

erebus isn't op if u die to him u got out played simple as that

I didn't add anything because I've made the point over and over again, and have yet to have someone actually make a valid argument against what I originally said.

heres some more proof that erebus wasnt op, look at the stats after the nerf already he dropped several spots an is jus above sedna and QoT. now if stats didnt matter then shouldnt erebus have stayed roughly the same? ppl must not realize that its based off win % if a demigod was op he would a higher win % than the other dg's now to start off with he was ranked 4th pre nerf, now after nerf hes dropped down to jus aboce sedna an QoT 2 majorly support chars so he is now the lowest ranked none support dg congrats the nerf wasnt needed. another interesting note pre nerf dark side was winning by roughly 1% now after nerf not only has light side caught up but they are now ahead by roughly 1%.

really dont care what people were saying they had no facts that erebus was op beyond "omgz he killdz me so ez" whereas the stats show differently. guess maybe dark side players need to take a tip from light side and whine till they can win easier. sigh guess im done, thanks again for reading my post.

I wanted to open with how cool the link you posted is, i bookmarked it, and it looks like i have a new read. That being said, game design does subsist in a fuzzy domain, im a philosophy major and games of abstract strategy are one of my main interests. What makes a game fun? All of us can point to examples, or sight instances, but what is the 'fun making property'? That is a scary hard question to answer and one i have put a great deal of time, thought, and study into; and i as of yet have no answer.

How to balance a pre-existing game is a different sort of question, and statistics are the answer. Pure win loss ratios can tell us where balancing needs to be done, and they can do a much better job than or own intuitions; but, as you said, not how to go about it; to do that requires a much more comprehensive set of metrics, but i believe that it is possible and that SPR's are the way to do it.

What would we need? All variable data for each demigod relative to their win/loss percentage, and a large sample. This is a very general answer; and now that you have me thinking about it i hope you will grant me some time to come up with a more precise response.

I think my [/thread closed] command is broken, but im happy that it is as now i have a new project.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm unsurprised that he dropped. Although to play devil's advocate, some of that might be from less people playing him due to the nerf.

Lol statitics in the pantheon? No one plays pantheon, and if they did, there are a lot more funner Demigods. Erebus doesn't take any thinking to play as.

Um, you clearly haven't noticed the thousands of people playing pantheon. All you have to do to see them is to click pantheon and then look at the big, big numbers.

Also, I'm not trying to say which demigod is "more funner", or if he takes skill. Only if he needed a nerf, which he didn't.

Considering that he's in the bottom three...

QFT. This was not a knee-jerk reaction. Erebus simply had far too many options available - damage dealing, mobility, lifesteal, and disabling his opponent... plus minions. He needed a nerf. To what degree that nerf should be taken, we will see. Balancing is a constant process; just wait.

I also agree that QoT needs a buff. Although her shield is very strong, she completely fails to meet her "original intention". If you notice, her strengths listed on the hero select screen are "heavy siege damage" and "powerful area damage". There is no mention of healing at all. Consider then that her AoE/siege damage is pitiful compared to TB/Rook and this makes me wonder why those things are even listed on the hero select screen.

If Erebus needed a nerf, I'd argue that Oak may need one too. But above all, QoT needs a buff.

Oak? Now this I gotta hear. Considering how pathetic his shield is i'd like to hear a reason.

I have to say, I agree with TGS here.  I considered Oak the most powerful DG before the Erebus nerf, now it's not very close.  Oak takes a high level of skill to play successfully because he's weak up to level 5 (at which point the SoF/DJ combination greatly increases his staying power and creep farming ability), but there is no demigod that can hang with a skillful, well-built Oak in the mid-to-late game.  His spirits are by far the most useful minions in the game, and his skill tree synergizes extremely well with a heavy minion build - SP, DJ and SoF combined with 3/4 levels in Raise Dead ward is just sick...not to mention the awesomeness of Penitence in the hands of a skillful player.  Then there's Last Stand kamikaze Oak if it comes to that late game.

I actually agree with you that Shield is pretty weak, overall.  I often buy only the first level when playing as Oak and use it exactly once per combat.  The first level is quite useful and the 3rd level is also worth the investment for the debuff remover, though the 2nd level is basically a waste and the 4th level/Purity is a joke.

There aren't a ton of really good Oak players out there because his best build has more moving parts (micromanaging the minions can be hard) than that of other DGs, but a skillful Oak player is damned near unstoppable unless you can gank him very early in the game.

none of the dudes  need nerfs there all easy and fun to play  so stop  with all this needs a nerf crap and counter it

All right, since I've heard this argument before, I'd like to hear your opinion on Sedna and heal.

The biggest downside in panth/skirmish to a no-heal sedna is your allies screaming at you for never healing.

a sedna without any heal is stupid  and is a shit build  sedna needs atleast lvl 1 heal it gives her that little boost  that is needed