AI cheats rather plentifully in this game.

Played quite a few 4x games and the Gal Civ AI is among the best cheaters of the lot.

The whole minor races setup is there as a cheat device. I've tried on various levels and almost always find that I'm still researching the science when the Kiwis announce they have Tri-Strontium. Or the Carcinogens or Alexs announce they have Afrodesiac. None of these races have any use for it....the AI just wants to keep it from you. And they were building this from your very first turn. This game should have a disable minor races button. And disable sharks. Just like MOO2 had a disable Antareans button. I don't care about the score.

Also, I've tried modifying my race. Is that cheating? No...you have only so many points and you can't go over. How you distribute them should be irrelevent to the AI. Right? But the minute you modify your race, the starting point on the maps that you get will be a horrendous ones. I was actually once placed in the last square in the corner, with three habitable class 15 planets, but nothing else within 10-12 sectors. Did I play that game? No, I'd rather open up my wrists. Its like playing Civ where it would set you up on a tiny island. Forget it, AI. Give me another map.

I'd like to suggest to the designers that they modify the cheatin' AI a bit. Especially on the lower levels. I, like many out here, have a real job and will never become an Avatar class player, or whatever you call it. Don't have the time. Life and work kind of interfere with it. I know that's sad, but that is how real life works. But I would like to sometimes come home and release the tension by kicking the universe's butt. As the Xbox commerical says, I'd like to play in your world.

Just in case someone says I'm bitter about losing, I'll say I've won every game I played to the end. Three of four, I think. But I dislike being cheated on general principle. It irritates me to no end. If the AI played poker like this at one of my parties...well, I think it would get the snot kicked out of it. My brother used to play football and has too short a temper and takes a very dim view of cheating.

Thanks. (Oh, and when you update this game, make one month mean one month! It is a turn based game where each turn is supposed to be one month. But one month is often two months. BS. If it won't be ready next turn, it should say two months, two turns. This is irritating, and you don't need to make the game irritating just to be cool. Be more like MOO2.)

Thnks again. A pretty cool game. Some real flaws, but still pretty cool.
1,595 views 46 replies
Reply #1 Top
The Ai does not cheat. God, how many times does this have to be said? The AI does not cheat. Your starting point is independant of all race modifications. Some have suggested luck plays a role, but the developers have hinted that luck only prevents bad things from happening rather than having good things happen. The jury is out, but it is possible that increased luck will get you a slightly better starting position. Not that it matters, though. Press CTRL-N at the start to regenerate your map if you have a really bad opening position.

The minor races are not meant to be cheaters. If they build trade goods, that means they actually have constructed it as you would. They get the very same bonuses you would get. They play the same game you do.

Again, the AI does not cheat. It is good at what it does, but at all levels below Genius, it plays the same game you do, at least. Actually, at the lower levels, the AI is penalized compared to you, not given artificial cheats.
Reply #2 Top
I personally dont know if the AI cheats or not. Since i dont know, I'll take the designer's word for it. However..IF IT DOES CHEAT...so freaking what? Name one computer strategy game, RTS or TB, that doesnt. And, you have won some games. So you dont like being cheated on (by a COMPUTER GAME for heavens sake)? T.S.
If anyone cares, just drop me a line, and I';ll give you a list of all the things in this world I dont like. But I still manage to get along. I daresay you'll make it too.
Game on.
Reply #3 Top
I chose the Universalists my last (current) game and Sol ended up being on a High-Influence (purple) star. Before this I haven't even seen one since v1.02

~SDC~
Reply #4 Top
I've heard that minor races beat you to trade goods because they still have that big pile of cash they started with, and haven't spent it all on colony ship production (as we do), and they tend to buy/lease those trade goods. I don't think they can start construction on the trade good/wonder before they get the tech, or at least I've seen nothing of the sort.

Re: getting a bad start when altering starting picks... I've always modified my starting picks, so I wouldn't know the difference, but I've gotten some *very* good starts even on the first try (my first gigantic game put me in a sector with 5 yellow stars, some with multiple 15+ planets around them, and a galactic resource, with a good number of other star-filled sectors nearby)... but even if you don't get a good start and don't want to play it, just hit Ctrl-n at the start and it will give you a new map (rather quickly, I've noticed).

As for the killer minors like the sharks and fundies and draginol... I don't think they show up on the low levels and only rarely on the medium levels. I've played several games on normal all the way through, and only in the last one did I encounter such a race (the fundies). I think you can disable them by modding out the associated events or perhaps tone them down by modding their race files (I don't know how, but I imagine it's not terribly difficult). It would be nice to have an easier way of dealing with that, but I don't think it's all that unreasonable as is.

The whole 2 month-1 month-next month thing is somewhat annoying... far more annoying is when you fiddle with the sliders to only spend exactly what you need to get the tech by next turn (since the excess is wasted), and it says it will be done by next turn, but when you click turn... no tech, it still says "next month". That only happens to me when I'm really squeezing the slider, though.

About the worst flaw, imho, is that if you select "nothing" in military or social production, you still spend every single bc allocated to production on that planet... this can be a real problem when you're finishing up a high-spending social cycle and there's still one planet that will take 10 turns to build a wonder/TG and the rest of the planets are done with everything on the governor queue... sure, you can put stuff like shipyards and multimedia centers on the list, but if you're not ready for the maintence costs... The other way is to just build each item on the list until they're "next turn" and then switch to another one, so when you do want to build the things they all finish really fast... but that's more micromanagement than I'm generally willing to do.

Aside from that, though, I think this game is quite well made, particularly the mostly non-cheating AI.
Reply #5 Top
Starts do vary extremely wildly in quality. For instance, on a Huge/Tight map, you might find yourself in the middle of a monstrous cluster with a PQ20 Earth and many PQ15+ planets within easy reach... or you might find yourself in a outlier system three sectors away from the next nearest star. Since GalCiv doesn't have an option for you to save/load maps, and the variance is pretty high, that's likely why you can use Ctrl-N rather than the usual exit game / set up another game / restart situation frequently used in other games. If you find yourself sandwiched between the Yor and the Drengin, and they're both headed your away, again, feel free to hit Ctrl-N.

On levels below Genius, the AI majors receive only a few deliberate major advantage that I know of: it knows where all the yellow stars are, and likely where the PQ15+ planets are. It also has somewhat more diplomatic options available, such as being able to demand tribute that's larger than your current treasury or being able to send warnings about specific starbases, military build-ups et al. If memory serves, it may also know where resources are. Minors start with a considerable amount of money -- a few thousand BC, methinks -- and operate at Intelligent level, although with substantially less expansionist drive or bloodlust than majors.

On the other hand, they don't hit Ctrl-N. They don't appear to exploit "cheese" tactics to the same degree that human players do, such as using a tiny, doomed invasion force just so you can slap some devastating invasion tactic without incurring PQ damage or facility destruction, or repeatedly colonizing a planet until a +PQ event shows up, or radically swinging in alignment in order to get a full set of techs. They don't save/reload, either.
Reply #6 Top
The Game doesnt cheat, I suck but I know it doesnt cheat. Methinks Perhaps the Game is just a Tad Hard for you? ;p
Reply #7 Top
It looks to me like you all need to join the G.R.O.S.S. empire.

The minor civ doesn't have much to do except build these things. It cannot colonize outside it's home sector. So it certainly isn't spending it's pool of money on ships like we are.
Reply #8 Top
Thanks for the generally pleasant responses. I have so little time to hang out here that I didn't even know about Ctrl-N. Thanks for informing me of that. I've been doing it the long way.

(Except those that implied that I'm a drooling idiot) thank you, gentlemen.
Reply #9 Top
What? You're not a drooling idiot? Then we in G.R.O.S.S. may not want you then.

;)

~SDC~
Reply #10 Top
Starts do vary WILDLY. In the game before my current game, I got a start which was simply jaw dropping. It was on a medium map with common habitable planets, all AIs set to intelligent. I am a fairly agressive expander, and it was about an average expansion for me. My initial empire was as follows (all PQs natural, before any improvements):

1 PQ 26
2 PQ 19
1 PQ 18
2 PQ 17
8 PQ 16
3 PQ 15

For a total of SEVENTEEN worlds near enough for me to grab them first (medium map!), including a natural PQ 26. I still have a saved game of the game right at the end of my expansion phase, if anybody wants it. You have to use the good ol' control-n a lot in this game. I would say about every other start or so is an automatic loser, and only 1/5 to 1/10 are what I would call "solid." But this one was a doozy.

-Drake

~SDC~
Reply #12 Top
The AI *does* cheat in some ways. Knowing the location of colonizeable planets is one example.

Bruce
Reply #13 Top
The AI *does* cheat in some ways. Knowing the location of colonizeable planets is one example.
End of quote


For the 10 billionth time: it's explicitly stated in the rules of the game and even the back story that this is so - how then does it become cheating? Cheating is not following the standard rules of the game and this is clearly part of the standard rules.

The only explicit cheats in the game are the economic bonuses the AI receives for free at Genius and above (and this is only "cheating" by virtue of it being a difficulty dependent edge as opposed to a standard rule of the game).
Reply #14 Top


#11 by Veteran wampyre - 5/31/2003 1:03:27 PM Drooling is ok. I draw the line at being an idiot
End of quote



Whew! (Quickly wipes chin.)

Elrikk

~SDC~
Reply #15 Top
The AI *does* cheat in some ways. Knowing the location of colonizeable planets is one example.
End of quote


...and to expand further on what Code Monkey has stated - the AI DOES NOT know individual planet quality - only where yellow stars are at.

If you feel this is the AI cheating then you could modify the tech tree file with notepad or another text editor (it's called GCTech.tech and it's in your data subdirectory) and change the entry for stellar cartography to have a cost of 1 and no prequisite - this will give you the exact same identical ability that the AI has. You will only have to research on your very first turn in order to possess it... it won't even affect your metaverse score.

So if you *truely* feel that the computer has an unfair advantage you can level the playing field yourself. :notsure:


[Message Edited]
Reply #16 Top
I'm used to cheating AI's personally (regardless if it really cheats here or not). I see a challenge, I try to find a way to overcome it (usually by turning the AI's against each other). The idea of turning AI's against each other is a HUGE factor in how I won my last game on 1.04, otherwise, I'd be having problems at some point with the Acreans, Torians or whoever else thought they had a good military.

Even if they do cheat, they're not impossible to overcome

SeanB
Reply #17 Top
Hey, how come the Ai always seems to know where the good planets are?


Hoohar! Just kidding folks..........





Reply #19 Top
Well just as a suggestion, maybe people wouldnt think you a drooling idiot if you didnt open up with outlandish and less than well-informed statements such as these "Played quite a few 4x games and the Gal Civ AI is among the best cheaters of the lot."

Like I said, just a suggestion. ;p
Reply #20 Top
I'll say I've won every game I played to the end. Three of four, I think.
End of quote


May I also humbly suggest that you play some more GalCiv games before concluding that the AI cheats? As you get better you will, perhaps, realize that a lot of those absurd situations are, indeed, accomplishments that can be done.
Reply #21 Top

For the 10 billionth time: it's explicitly stated in the rules of the game and even the back story that this is so - how then does it become cheating? Cheating is not following the standard rules of the game and this is clearly part of the standard rules.
End of quote

For the first time, don't be an idiot. Cheating means many different things in many different contexts. In *this* context... read the previous posts... it's about AI doing things and getting advantages *in gameplay* that the human does not. To fall back on, "Well, if it's programmed in, then it's not cheating" just creates a circular argument.


The only explicit cheats in the game are the economic bonuses the AI receives for free at Genius and above (and this is only "cheating" by virtue of it being a difficulty dependent edge as opposed to a standard rule of the game).
End of quote

Yes, and I almost mentioned this as well. It's a form of cheating, although one very common in games, and one which is actually turned off on some levels in the game. But since it is tried to the difficulty slider, people are pretty much used to this.

Bruce
Reply #22 Top

...and to expand further on what Code Monkey has stated - the AI DOES NOT know individual planet quality - only where yellow stars are at.
End of quote

I never stated that it does. I stated it knows where they *are*. I too believed that it only knew where yellow stars are, but someone in another post said it knew habital planets, so I was purposefully general. Seems like yellow stars almost always have one anyway, so it's a minor distinction.


If you feel this is the AI cheating then you could modify the tech tree file with notepad or another text editor (it's called GCTech.tech and it's in your data subdirectory) and change the entry for stellar cartography to have a cost of 1 and no prequisite - this will give you the exact same identical ability that the AI has. You will only have to research on your very first turn in order to possess it... it won't even affect your metaverse score.
End of quote

Firstly, it would cost me a turn. Secondly, if it doesn't effect one's metaverse score, then that's a major bug, since people could just give themselves all sorts of techs. Finally, it's irrelevant -- I was not complaining (although I do think it's cheap and should be eliminated... it made sense in the OS/2 days but not today) but simply saying the AI *does* cheat in some ways. To claim otherwise is simply muddies the waters for those looking for an honest evaluation.

Next time, instead of being a knee-jerk reactionary and attacking me personally, try to contribute something positive to the discussion.

Bruce
Reply #23 Top
If you feel this is the AI cheating then you could modify the tech tree file with notepad or another text editor (it's called GCTech.tech and it's in your data subdirectory) and change the entry for stellar cartography to have a cost of 1 and no prequisite - this will give you the exact same identical ability that the AI has. You will only have to research on your very first turn in order to possess it... it won't even affect your metaverse score.
End of quote


Game data sent to metaverse contains order of researched techs. So, you'll have some problems with metaverse if you sent game with that changes.

~SDC~
Reply #24 Top
Bobo say allkinds people know AI have advantage. Only way computer beat smart players like Bobo. Bobo know that when him play game. Bobo hear that when him read posts. Bobo also play otherkinds games. Ai also have advantages. Some call cheat. Who cares? Bobo not care. That part of game. When game made for playing with self, need differnt rules than game made for playing with otherkinds people. Mostkinds people smarter than computer. Computer need help. That way it is. Bobo say, not like game with advantages, dont play game. Much simple. Not like, not play. Bye bye.