1.04 AI cheats on tech tree, gets free techs from nowhere (bug?)

I'll check into this.

I've seen that several times too, but not been able to nail it down. Nice, Richard!

Does the computer shows you *all* his tech in the trade-window ?

I thought he didn't always showed everything.

My experience is that the computer will show you all the techs that you as the player do not have. So if you both have the exact same techs, then you would not see anything show up for the Altarians

SeanB

And at any rate, you certainly cannot trade a tech to him that he already has. Interstellar tactics not only fails to show up on his list - it shows up on mine as an option for trading to him.

-Drake

~SDC~

Um...

Breakthrough? I've seen the Drengin get battleship techs lots when they are several techs away from BS. I just presumed it was a breakthrough. Of course, my breakthroughs are always HyperWarp or HyperSensors, but...

Have the Altarians chosen the "creative" racial ability? Doesn't that let you skip tech prerequisites?

Then again, they might've wheeled and dealed some. I'm still wondering how on Earth the Acreans on my game somehow got to -2800 bc unless they were rush buying one expensive item or something.

SeanB

I think the wheeling and dealing is out, since no one else had BB tech... at least, no one he knew about had it.

As for the creative pick, is that what it does?

To follow up on the broader idea of the computer getting free techs from somewhere, here are the tech stats at the end of my most recent game. Considering how stingy the computer is about trading techs, I think they illustrate the point nicely.

Player Techs Researched Techs Acquired % Researched

Humans 77 122 63%
Drengin 34 93 37%
Altarians 20 87 23%
Arceans 12 96 13%
Torians 20 95 21%
Yor 21 54 39%

In other words, no single computer researched even close to half of the techs he acquired. Where did they all come from? If you add all of the techs researched by all the computers together, there are 107. That is barely enough to account for the 96 the Arceans scored (I traded them probably around 5-10), and that is assuming there are no redundancies in the pattern - or in other words, no two computers ever researched the same tech (absurd). And even if you assume that, there is no accounting for the Arceans. The entire game they had two worlds. Yet somehow they had the resources to trade for techs to the point where they picked up five for each one they researched themselves.

For reference, here's the tech stats screen from the end of the game.

http://www.restorethepledge.com/rapacity/GalCiv/techs.jpg

-Drake

~SDC~

I went back to the save game and dumped my entire economy into spying on the Altarians, so that I reached Advanced level of espionage in like 5 turns. They do not have creativity, and battleship technology shows up as their most time intensive research. They researched it.

-Drake

~SDC~

Someone else posted their tech scores showing little research done my the ai compared to techs it aquires, but in my games they research 60-90% of thier techs. It might be because you are trading so much, I tend to reseach 80+% of my tech meself.

I don't trust the research stats...

I am VERY stingy with my research. I never trade any of it, or sell it, unless I'm very desperate. I'll generally get research stats that say: 90 discovered 130 acquired.

Having never bought a tech, taken one with military, or traded for a tech, I wonder how I acquired 40 techs? Every tech I have, I researched.

So, I've come to believe that stat meant: how many you researched before anyone else, and how many techs you just ended up with. That seems more appropriate, as I tend to maintain as strong a tech lead as I can, and I usually do so from early-mid game onward, in all all things other then say, Dreads and Battle Ship.

And as I've seen the computer get the techs without getting the pre-requisites, and knowing there isn't a single minor in the galaxy, it has to be by some form of breakthrough.

Don't forget the minor races either. They seem to have a lot of money and production even if they have only one planet, so its possible the AI is trading with them to get advanced techs. They could have traded for the prereq to battleship then researched battleship... hehe. Maybe *I* should do that!

I'm tired of this "AI is cheating" threads. Especially of those that make a bold statement based on nothing but suspicion.

Just because something happened in the game that you don't understand doesn't make it wrong, a bug, or cheating.

Really, if I were a Stardock developer, the use of such strong words on every opportunity (and utterly ignorant of the fact that Frogboy repeatedly stated that there is no designed cheating on the AI's side), and the constant bitching and moaning would kill my motivation to develop the product further.

So, how about asking for a (possible) bug to be investigated, instead of demanding that the "cheating" is turned off?

I've seen your game, Richard and I'm stumped because I can't find anyone else with Battleship and it is obvious that the Alts do not have the pre-req Interstellar Tactics because I can see it available for trade to the Alts on your side.

This requires the big guns to investigate further.

I've seen this many times, but I was always assuming that they took creativity and got lucky.

MadMirko-

You are right about one thing, which is that I should probably give more credit to the developers. If it were any other game, it wouldn't even cross my mind to bother pointing out problems, since there is rarely any expectation that the developers will fix even obvious bugs (to say nothing of undesirable features). So thank you, FrogBoy and everyone else at Stardock. It's easy to get sucked in and emotionally invested in this game because it's so intense, and that makes it easy to want more and more from the game until all perspective is lost. I think I have an interesting point about this battleship tech, though, and I would like to follow it up. I will, however, take your advice and avoid charged words like "cheating" in the future.

In the meantime, I think we have eliminated the possibility of a tech breakthrough. My spies tell me that he doesn't have creatibity and that he researched it, but he doesn't have interstellar tactics.

-Drake

~SDC~

AFAIK, creativity to supposed to give you a chance to get a tech faster, not a tech out of the blue. So don't think it's creativity.

Okay, to follow up.

At this point I can say with confidence that the AI is somehow getting techs in a way which the human player cannot. Here:

http://www.restorethepledge.com/rapacity/GalCiv/techflow.rar

That's my current game. The Altarians are boxed into one corner with only three planets. Their tech graph is pretty much flatline, while mine is way up in the clouds along with the Torians. But the Altarians have every tech I have, plus five or so others. He's not getting them from the other computers, or at least not on terms that are available to me. He doesn't have a military to threaten people with, and trading money for them is far too expensive. Just try it yourself. You have to give an arm and a leg just to get a weeny one that you could research in two turns.

There IS at least one (techs too fast or for free from somewhere) and probably two (techs without prereqs) anomalies in the way the AI gets techs. I think that if you look at the two saved games I have posted, this is pretty much beyond argument.

-Drake

~SDC~

One way the Altarians might have gotten loads of your tech is by invading a newly arrived minor.

KILL THEM. KILL THEM IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT HESITATE.

Or at least, sometimes it IS extremely important to kill them ASAP, because when they appear they will frequently have substantial tech. Once, I saw one appear with *all* of my techs except the one I'd just finished researching, if memory serves. If you're the tech leader and this happens, obviously they're a threat to you. In any event, they're likely to have extremely short lives no matter what you do because every major with the range to do so is going to want to snap up the newly hospitable, lightly-defended (100M pop, no ships) planet.

"I'm tired of this "AI is cheating" threads. Especially of those that make a bold statement based on nothing but suspicion."

Actually, this guy is providing substantial evidence to back up his claims. I, for one, think he's on to something. Keep up the good work.

Richard, have you taken a look at the logs? One of the logs lists every tech trade, and maybe even those researched. I don't remember where it is, but it was discussed in another thread on this subject.

There certainly does seem to be some wierd stuff going on with techs. My last tiny game, I was the first and only race with Anti-matter. Then I get a trade request from the Altarians, they want to trade my Anti-matter for their Warp Drive. I was a bit confused.

Unfortunately, I was so wrapped up in my thirst to rid the universe of all non-humans, that I didn't think to make a save to send in.

If I notice something similar, I will be sure to make a save and keep the debug file.

~SDC~

And to note, techs gained from a sucessful invasion do not appear in the logs, AFAIK.

~SDC~