Well what about a combination of things...MB is definitely overpowered, I think most of the people here can agree with it.  So what I'm thinking is take (dolynick's suggestion I think) and give MB a cone-type radius but with an unlimited number of targets in that cone and maybe 10-15 waves of missiles, each wave doing 125 damage.  This means that positioning the uber-gun will take a little skill  and will give the player defending against MB a chance to counter/kill the Marza before it gets into the position to scrap your whole fleet.  It also makes this less of a "push button, kill everything" ability.  Also, add in some flair so that the ability is more like fireworks going off than little tiny poofs of missiles that somehow manage to own the crap out of your painstakingly assembled ships.

Overpowered or not - it definatly needs a change.Though target cap is already rational enouph I propose it also to hit both friend and foe

(well,just the second is enouph for me)

You're suggesting that a capped missile barrage would be SO powerful that you have to block it with the cheapest unit possible! You can make that scout argument with ANY ability in the game, not just missile barrage. Why not put more scouts in your fleet and try it out a bit?

In Entrenchment it would not be out of the question to have 8 to 10 scouts already built. Why? Mines. So Missile barrage could be countered by fast moving scouts moving toward the Mazra before it comes into position. An arbitrary limit of 24 units would then have 30 to 40% wasted on the scouts. Not a full counter but it would be a ready made meat shield on units that contribute little to head-on combat.

So back to the question that remains unanswered. Could scouts be excluded from an ability effect? Does anyone, perhaps a modder, know if that's possible?

 

Yeah, but that doesnt seem right that way....

@mbaron888, I dont really think its possible.  Each ability has a number of "constraints" that include things like "NotSelf" or "HasAntiMatterPool".  I dont know for sure if there's an actual way to make it avoid scouts, since they fall under the headings of "hasweapons" and are frigates as well as technically being considered combat ships but I'm pretty sure that no other ability has constraints that allow it to target only a specific ship.  I wish I could definitively say yes or no but in my trolling through the gameinfo files I haven't come across anything that lets you avoid or target a specific type of ship. Class of ship (capitalship/frigate/noncombat) yes, type (scout, HC, LRF, etc) no.

The Regicide has the solution....did anyone notice?  Change MB to deal a fixed amount of damage...  Cap the damage, not the targets.  Then a large enough fleet would survive if all the damage is shared between each ship equally.  That would make me happy.

 

I'd still like to see some of the other cap ships get a buff..  Not to game ending proportions, but just a little buff.  Some of the abilities just seem a bit underpowered....either that or I've just not learned how to use them successfully yet. 

No, it cannot be done.  Target filters work on ship classes.  Scouts are frigate class vessels and you definitely wouldn't want to exclude frigates as valid targets, since they compose the bulk of a fleet.

30%-40% wasted on scouts?  That all depends on how big your fleet is.  As I said, targetting is random and would not prefer to fire as scouts.  Unless your fleet was actually 30%-40% scouts (which seems awefully excessive just for mine detection) that wouldn't happen.

If I misconstrued your meaning by bringing up scouts as a "block" for MB then my apologies.  Mine scouting would account for some scouts being in the combat fleet.  There are others, however, who suggested that building scouts or other chaff specifically to counter MB would be a tactic if a target cap were introduced.  I was pointing out the flaw in that idea.

His proposition was to make it fire a fixed amount of missiles.  That is exactly the same in effect as a target cap.  The way abilities work you cannot say fire "x" missiles (which do x damage) but rather you tell it to do "x effect" (in this case damage) to "x" number of targets in a given area.  So long as it can potentially target an entire fleet the only way to restrict total missiles to any fixed number is to target cap it.

-dolynick

Fixed missiles/targets would work. Nevermind my other idea, it wouldn't work as well. AoE LRMs would work too well with it...

Disciple and Cobalt have abilities to mess with ships am (won't work on Cap).  What if they make it that those abilities work on Caps at 1/2 efficiency?  I am even for giving Ravastra some kind of AM interfering abilities.  Just a thought.

It would have to be more like 1/10th efficiency.  Remember that most support cruisers are in the 4-7 command range, while capital ships cost you 50 command a piece.  Even so, I think the capital ship immunity here is well justified.  It's not like they aren't focus fire magnets as it is.

The funny part is that by "countering" missile barrage with scouts, you intentionally cripple your fleet so that your opponent doesn't even need to use MB.

Many of the target cap ideas have already suggested the Marza reacquires targets, so that no waves can go to waste, even if scouts are sacrificed into the mix. This means the Marza will try to do the maximum damage, which is in effect a form of smart damage cap.

Making antimatter abilities work against capital ships is sketchy, because caps have a very different scale of antimatter compared to normal ships. 50 antimatter for a petty support frigate is nothing, but can be devastating to a cap. Starbases have an even more skewed scale, storing less than 200 AM for some of the most devastating abilties around. It's not so simple to make frigate AM attacks work against caps.

it turns out that way, but his suggestion inclined that targets are chosen randomly with each salvo, so that the damage is spread out against large fleets.

The thing is, some of us just want MB to become crap so they don't have to worry about it. But I and many others believe that it should not be nerfed too badly, but instead 'brought in line' with other abilities.
In fact, whatever you set the hard cap to, it will still be either crap or the same MB that can kill 10.000-credits worth of ships without any help, fleet or thinking on the Marza user's side. That's just how I feel about it. The most important imba-ness of MB is that it doesn't scale with the fleet, but in the wrong way:
- most abilities that don't scale are good with zero fleet and just as good with a big fleet (which means useless in big fights)
- MB is imba with no fleet and it is imba with a huge fleet. It doesn't scale, it's over the s**t regardless of what the enemy or you have.

That's why I feel hard target cap is not a genuine solution to the problem, but more of a nerf. Marza should dish out a lot of damage, it's made for it. But it shouldn't be able to deal 25*100*50 = 125.000 points of damage to a 50 ship fleet, without any support whatsoever, with just a single click. It's just lol.
It's like having an ability that kicks a player from the game if he doesn't write a verse from shakespeare in 15 seconds.

to be or not to be, that is the question. 

 

done. took less than 15 seconds. 

Shakespeare is too easy. what you really need to do is play "Huxtables", which is where you have to name at least 5 members of the Huxtable family (including the actors that played them) excluding the obvious one (Bill Cosby). 

 

if you can't name the Huxtables you can audible it and instead recite the lyrics from a sitcom opening theme song of your choice. loser has to drink. 

 

i mean...wait, what game were we playing again?

Forget all this "target cap" crap and everything else.  What would be wrong with simply turning MB into a "better" radiation bomb?  It could keep the same animation, it could still be called "MB."  But instead of annihilating an infinite number of hit points in a huge radius, it would damage 1 ship plus everything around it in a much smaller radius with an effect not unlike volatile nanites or similar abilities (actually, with an effect not unlike radiation bomb, just better), and it would have to be aimed instead of the current "just press a button and nuke everything on the screen."

Anything wrong with that?

Seeing as missile barrage is the ultimate damage ability for the Marza, it doesn't really matter HOW the damage is dealt- Smaller area, fewer targets, less damage, etc.- as long as it doesn't scale to infinity like the current MB.

I don't like the idea of limiting the angle of missile barrage. The missiles launch out of all sides, and missiles are designed to seek their targets. It wouldn't make sense to have MB limited to a tiny cone of effect.

You missed the comma.
Originally, the sentence is:
To be, or not to be, that is the question

You lose.

@JJbuck2 and dolynick

Thanks. I was wondering what the variables for abilities are. I am trying to learn to mod Sins but I'm still learning. I haven't even been able to bring unedited versions of the GameInfo files into a mod and get it to work without a minidump. But that's for another thread.

Also from another thread Bobucles was saying the Mazra's Incendiary Shells ability is bugged. "This ability is bugged to keep cancelling itself. You can't affect multiple ships with incendiary rounds, as the previous ship will lose the debuff as soon as the next one hits."

It would be nice to see that fixed along with any other changes.

Ouch, if that's true...that definately needs to be fixed.  Incendiary shells should work properly..

 

What if we left how missile barrage works alone and just decreased the damage?  Being able to completely annihilate an entire fleet is a bit over the top when compared to other abilities.  Lowering the damage would change it from a fleet buster to a fleet softener....

Another option would be to completely change the effect.  Make it do something else other than area effect damage.  It's ultimately up to the devs what route to take, but after reading everyone's posts and doing a bit of experimentation, I have to agree with the nerf.  Bringing all the other cap ships up to the same level would drastically alter gameplay.  I say making a change to the Marza is the best option.  Sorry TEC guys... 

Either decreasing the range by about half, or the damage to a little more than half; would all be acceptable in balancing it to other abilities.

Yes and no. Just lowering the damage and leaving the rest of the ability alone would be too much of a nerf IMO. As it is now, it only will kill of LRFs (not countin Illums), and a few support cruisers. It heavily damages HCs, but all the factions have good AoE repair abilities. It's because of these AoE heal abilities that lowering the damage would make MB useless. Just for the sake of argument, let's say that MB would be toned down to deal 900 damage to each ship over the same duration. That's enough to kill an unupgraded Javelis, and not much else. Factor in HP, armor, and shield upgrades, and you won't be killing anything with it. AoE healing means that not only will you not kill anything, but the stuff you just hurt will be back in good shape pretty quickly.

 

I really think this is the way to go. Keep the current level of damage, but confine it to a pretty tight area. It would still be a poweful direct-damage ability, but not nearly OP like it is now. MB would become a more tactical ability, since it would be front facing and have a pretty tight area of effect. It wouldn't be anywhere near useless though, as it would still deal 3k damage to everything caught in the blast area. Perhaps the duration would have to be shortened (and damage per wave increased accordingly) so that someone couldn't simply run away from the blast area with a few scratches.

All of this can be said about any AOE damaging ability. For instance, Phase Missile Swarm. What good is it if it cannot kill anything (600 dmg to 7 targets) and the enemy will heal?
When every ship from a 100 ship fleet in 10000 radius is dealt 900 damage, it's a POWERFUL asset. It destroys shields and damages hulls of the softer targets. It weakens the enemy fleet considerably. LRMS + Cluster rockets and the enemy fleet is going to start disappearing twice as fast. 
And no, Vasari have only Repair cloud as an AOE heal which is nowhere near awesome and requires you to have a lvl 5 skirantra, arguably the second most useless cap in Vasari arenal (followed only by Marauder).

Phase missile swarm is not a good ability, IMO. I never choose it until I have all the other abilities maxed out. Missile Barrage is a level 6 ability, and needs to be more powerful than any of the "regular" abilities.

 

If the enemy fleet has about 100 ships, then...

TEC - will have enough Hoshis and HP/armor upgrades to negate 900 damage per target pretty easily

Advent - will completely shrug off this rather small amount of damage with a healty amount of Guardians and lvl 3 shield restore

Vasari - should have a lvl 5 Skinatra with repair cloud by this point, which will start the healing process. You're right in saying that Vasari have the short end of the stick when speaking about AoE healing abilities, however their ships are just so darn tough. Now, if your enemy is using mainly assailants, than he gets what he deserves. Enforcers have a huge amount of HP and armor, plus reintegration. Overseers can play cleanup.

My point is that, in large fleet engagements like you're talking about (and where a lvl 6 ability is needed to turn the tide of battle), merely hurting a lot of ships isn't good enough. You either need to cripple the enemy in a particular way (disable key capital ship, disable support cruisers, etc), or kill a lot of ships quickly.

They lost all their shields anyway. Even if shields are only 30% of the TEC ship's durability, it is still something they'd rather HAVE than not. And they just lost it.

That's a different story as Advent can pretty much tank MB right now.

Again, Vasari can't regenerate shields, which they obviously lost after even such a nerfed MB. Since shields are a little more important for Vasari than tec (relatively bigger shield-to-hull point ratio), this is again a serious blow.
And you can't assume one should have a lvl5 skirantra with any big fleet. Constructing a second most useless cap ship and leveling it to 5lvl solely to battle a marza is even more of a laugh than building a lvl1 most useless cap ship (marauder) to disable a channeling marza. Repair Cloud is no help in most big battles. Focus fire means ships blow up before the repair starts working.

If all the ships start dying 30% faster because they've just lost 30% health (shields)... I'd say they are crippled.
Advent is a different story cause they ignore almost all AOE in the game.
Vol nanites? One of the ships blew up? 150 shields lost, that's 3 seconds of regeneration. Lul.
Malice? Same story.
Rad bomb, PMS... same story.

So for TEC and Vasari, hurting a lot of ships IS good enough. For advent... they can tank MB as it is.