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I want to demonstrate carrier counters to you [Updated 2/27]

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I want to demonstrate carrier counters to you [Updated 2/27]

from Sins Forums

EDIT:  Now that flak has been buffed and carriers have been nerfed, does anyone still want to participate in this demonstration?

 

Ok, so apparently people just don't get it (see the replies to this thread https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/340339 and the various threads about needing to nerf carriers). 

So to all of you who think carriers are OP, I am CALLING YOU OUT.  That's right.  Tonight, from 7 pm to 10 pm EST, I will play you in a team game.  I promise to build no more than 1 for every 5 cruiser carriers you have.  I will show you how to counter carriers properly.  At the end of the demonstration, we will then determine if a nerf is really needed.  I invite the developers as well.  My screen name on ICO is "[DT]Howthe?"  Be there or be square.  If you want to reply to this thread and reserve a spot either on my team or the opposing team, just sign up.  I'll then go ahead and make a roster.

EDIT:  When you sign up, make sure to post your screenname, with proper spelling.

Roster for 7 pm game 2/27/09:  ICO updated during the time we had.

Carrier Killing Team   vs   Carrier Spamming Team

[DT]Howthe?  __________________  Agent of Karma

[_]-Flipkik   ____________________  [SP]TheTraviler

ravok2789  ____________________

KEN  ______________________

 

EDIT:  Here is a replay (for what it's worth) of a game I just played against a carrier spammer.  As you can see, carriers are not a game winner.  http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/7/2039910/AutoRecord-02211859.record

strategy
263,439 views 126 replies
Reply #101 from Sins Forums Top

....the purpose of this thread?

Reply #102 from Sins Forums Top

I'm pretty new to Sins. I've played a little bit when it first came out, but the expansion actually made me pay for the base game and the expansion as well. Carriers seem... Well, I've been trying them out and they do seem quite powerful given their speed and durability, combined with the problems Flak units have dealing with the squadrons.

 

Are they really unbalanced though? I browsed the thread and didn't see anyone showing that X supply worth of flak units could beat X supply worth of carrier units, but even that wouldn't be too good. The build rate penalty seems alright, but instead of having the penalty if an enemy unit is in the same system [A single scout triggers it for me], why not set it so the unit gets the penalty when they have their fighter/bombers deployed? Could also give the unit a speed penalty when it has its squadrons deployed as well so they can't kite as well [The AI at least is kind of dim, their frigates often overshoot the 3-4 carriers I was using].

 

I dunno. Gonna watch that replay now. :)

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #103 from Sins Forums Top

Well this test is never gonna take place I geuss. We set a time and stuff twice already each time it didn't happen :S .

 

Grtz,
[_]-Flipkik

Reply #104 from Sins Forums Top

Over powered carrieres won't scare newbs from playing the game online,  this thread will.  haha

Reply #105 from Sins Forums Top

Over powered carrieres won't scare newbs from playing the game online, this thread will. haha

And your avatar...

Reply #106 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Howdidudothat, reply 5

Over powered carrieres won't scare newbs from playing the game online, this thread will. haha
And your avatar...

 

pfft,  what's wrong with Dr. Gregory Freeman?

Reply #107 from Sins Forums Top

You mean Dr Gregory House right??? :D

+1 Loading…
Reply #108 from Sins Forums Top

pfft, what's wrong with Dr. Gregory Freeman?

Considering I don't play half-life, I know nothing about him, other than he looks like a nerd.

Reply #109 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Hack78, reply 7
You mean Dr Gregory House right???

 

Yea lol,  someone photoshopped him with Gordon Freeman glasses and the suit and he looks just like him haha.

Reply #110 from Sins Forums Top

so after some inital testing i can't say that carriers are overpowerd against flak frigs.

in some labs tests i have done you need around 2 flaks per carrier to keep the squads down and have enough firepower left over after killing the inital squads, but killing the carriers takes a bit :p

that is a bit less cash/metal/ore as the carriers cost but far less fleet supply (~50%), if that is balanced is another question.

sure i have lost some flaks to the bombers but less then 10%.

i think it is a problem that the flaks target fighters first but should go after the bombers.

they work best in thight packs and if they are the primary target, so setting them up as a fleet with tight fleet cohesion helps.

 

that flaks are easily killed by other stuff is another problem, but they are very capable of killing and keeping the squads down and kill the carriers after that.

 

all tests have been done in a custom map, with spawned ships, so no tech or other ships involved.

 

Reply #111 from Sins Forums Top

so after some inital testing i can't say that carriers are overpowerd against flak frigs.

in some labs tests i have done you need around 2 flaks per carrier to keep the squads down and have enough firepower left over after killing the inital squads, but killing the carriers takes a bit

that is a bit less cash/metal/ore as the carriers cost but far less fleet supply (~50%), if that is balanced is another question.

sure i have lost some flaks to the bombers but less then 10%.

i think it is a problem that the flaks target fighters first but should go after the bombers.

they work best in thight packs and if they are the primary target, so setting them up as a fleet with tight fleet cohesion helps.



that flaks are easily killed by other stuff is another problem, but they are very capable of killing and keeping the squads down and kill the carriers after that.



all tests have been done in a custom map, with spawned ships, so no tech or other ships involved.

 

Welcome aboard Gort!  Many of us have been trying to tell people this for ages.  The first thing JJ and I did when the new carrier came out was test them against flak, and we found that flak won.  With the last tweaks in Entrenchment to flak range and carrier build rate, it is even more pronounced.

Reply #112 from Sins Forums Top

Finally - Someone saying the same thing as the "pros". They have done some research and this cannot be discounted with the "but a pro will win any battle regardless since they are a pro" argument....

If you have a replay handy, post it. It will help prove this once and for all

Reply #113 from Sins Forums Top

Finally - Someone saying the same thing as the "pros". They have done some research and this cannot be discounted with the "but a pro will win any battle regardless since they are a pro" argument....

The rest of us have done research too.  I personally did research for weeks and weeks.  I even went a couple of straight weeks without building a single carrier, and accumulated many losses on my record because of it, all in the name of doing research.

The bottom line is, it is difficult for the AVERAGE (non-pro) PLAYER to counter carriers with lf or flak.  However, that doens't mean carriers should be nerfed.  In fact, I am on record several times as saying they shouldn't be.  DON'T NERF CARRIERS ANY MORE.  THEY ARE FINE THE WAY THEY ARE.  In other words, I agree with Cykur.  If it's hard for the average player to counter carriers with flak or lf, then "tough noogies" (and that includes me).

Reply #114 from Sins Forums Top

If it's hard for the average player to counter carriers with flak or lf, then "tough noogies" (and that includes me).

As I have been telling people for ages - you have to take your licks before you get good at Sins. You learn more by losing to a good player who educates you then comp stomping. Look at step-a-nich. He is very good. Why? He was tutored by one of the best players that was around in the 1.05 days...

Reply #116 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting JohnJames, reply 6
Instead of calling them out do a simple test.

Make say 10 carriers = 140 supply

Calculate how much resource that takes.

Now build all flak, but only up to 50% resource/supply

then try 75% then try 100%. Dont micro

Try with LF as well.

Post results

 

wont work tht way, the strenght of carriers is they big HP, you can retreat them in time and the fact that strike crafte are still free and fairly replasable.

 

Pure numbers, as you sugjest, wont work with players...

Reply #117 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting KL3MZ, reply 5
well i personaly go for 3 dunov 2 kol 1 marza ... simply because when focuse fire on dunov you'll have 2 other dunov giving shield in, and if they aim an other cap you have 3 shielding on it, kills the experience a lot but i usualy rush for the marza 6 and then spam other caps, since lvl 3 is enough for dunov and kol, lvl 2 shield and lvl 2 flak burst

 

 

 

You could also go for a 3 marza 3 kol 10 dunov fleet i tryed it, 80 focused kodiaks didnt go past shield

 

by the time you get shit to waste on 3 exstra cap, ill be farting novaliths out my ass....

 

3 cap is usualy maximum you see in hig skilled games on medium maps...

Reply #118 from Sins Forums Top


<----SC---->

{-------------KOL--------------}

<-----YOUR FLEET----->

............................<----SC---->

              {-------------KOL--------------}

{------------DUNOV--------------}

...............<-----YOUR FLEET----->

......................................<-----ENEMY FLEET with unmicroed SC---->

 

 

 (____o____)  your ass     <=====my dick===3

Reply #120 from Sins Forums Top

It's like a car crash with Siddy. You know you shouldn't look, but you can't help yourself!!!!

Reply #121 from Sins Forums Top

i knew somebody would finally put my god-awful ascii diagram to good use. cheers to you Siddy. 

Reply #122 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Howdidudothat, reply 19
Welcome back Siddy.

 

im not back, im using t3h internets... from army. 

 

Reply #123 from Sins Forums Top

I played 3 hour game where id idn't build a single carrier lol. Yes I won after over 3 hours.  All I built was kodiaks flak and robos, I also got 2 Marzas, because one wont kill carriers. I double missile barraged quite a few carriers.  Though for the advent ones I probably need 4.

Reply #124 from Sins Forums Top

Astax, while I agree you can still win by not building carriers, you really should have a few, if for nothing else than fighter coverage.  Flak vs Bombers just doesn't work.  Flak vs Vasari SC also doesn't work extremely well.  Also, in the end game, where you have already won, I usually spam the living daylights out of carriers equipped with bombers to make cleanup go quicker. 

Reply #125 from Sins Forums Top

It's like a car crash with Siddy. You know you shouldn't look, but you can't help yourself!!!!

Siddy's kind of like a revolving door...