Nephs Beta 2 Feedback - Part 2

from Sins Forums

 

 

System specs: MacBook Pro, XP via bootcamp, 4Gb ram, 8600GT 256Mb gfx card

 

PART 2

 

So, in last few days I went and tested Entrenchment bit more...

After saving my 2.5 hours long SP game on smallest possible map (quick strike - see Part 1 below) I decided to take Entrenchment online and test it there for a change...

Usual number of people online - yes... - but not a single one plays Entrenchment. After spending some time in the lobby with no success to find a game I went back to my SP mission. At about 3 hours into it I saved again and decided to try going online tomorrow evening...

So, evening after I went to ICO again and weirdly enough same thing happened. Few dozens players online but by look of it all playing Vanilla Sins... Bah, whatever...

Last night same thing happened again and since that was 3rd night in the row that I couldn't get Entrenchment game going I spoke with one of the guys in the lobby asking him what is going on and why no one plays beta... Answer was that "everyone" went back to vanilla sins.

Fair enough...

So I said is it because of some beta problems perhaps? He said - no - adding that online community doesn't like expansion and that majority moved back to vanilla sins... Just to confirm this, I asked the guy if he is going to stay "vanilla way" even after the beta. He said - yes so it will vast majority of online Sins players...

Now, question for MP guys in this forums...

Are you going to play Entrenchment online when it finally gets released and if NO why not (please state your reasons)...

 

Last night, failed attempt to get online game going forced me back to my 3 hours long SP game :)

 

After 3 hours and 45 minutes I completed "Quick Strike"

 

It was fun and blast for most of the time but surely was NOT Quick!!!

 

So far, it certainly looks like Entrenchment is pretty much SP mini expansion and I can very easily envision the future now. If you feel like playing against AI you will most likely boot into Entrenchment and in case you feel like going online you will find yourself in Vanilla Sins...

 

Kinda meh really and bit of a shame too... But hey! Sins is still one and only game worth playing these days :p

 

PART 1

I am not sure if I have gone insane or what but game now looks 5x prettier than before! Whatever has changed in regards to gfx / textures it changed the right way so stuff now looks simply awesome! I am running the game on all high by the way...

I have experienced NO crashes, mini dumps or any sort of problem at all - in fact, game on my systems is getting better and prettier with each update and patch. So great news there too... Keep it up!

General changes made to Entrenchment bits and pieces are all great as far as I could see and significant improvement has been made on how things work and play from beta 1... Of course, there will be need for few balance tweaks here and there, but generally speaking things are for sure getting there! And this statement includes mines too! So well done to this part as well... Love it!

Now, I am not going to go into any balance details and suggestions since I simply haven't played it long enough to properly conclude anything, however, I do have one concern based on my single game from last night... Read on...

So I started this tiny 7 planets mission against Hard AI and as you can imagine things went "hot" from the word go. Skirmishes here and there all the way until I secured 3 rather nice planets for myself. Now, since this was Entrenchment test I decided to "dig in" and test the new toys expecting stupid AI to keep on coming on me... But NO frekn way! As soon as I decided to "dig in" AI decided to do the same! LOOOOOOOL! This is awesome - yes - but keep on reading...

At this point, both AI and myself, were around 2 hours into the game fully Entrenched! Since most of my money went into defences my fleet was OK but not exactly extremely powerful... Same was with AI guy...

2.5 hours into the game he started to "attack with culture" and I replied the same way saving the game and switching my computer off...

OK, you might be wondering what was the point of this story, well point is that I simply am not sure how to respond to this...

Game played awesomely - no doubt - so this is the + mark, however, only 7 planets map and 2.5 hours into the game with NO sign of end!?!?!?!

Some of you might remember my posts when Entrenchment got announced and they sounded like: "Yes, great! But what about game length? Wont Entrenchment elongate already way long games?"

Well I found the answer last night - YES it will...

As I said at the begining of this post - this is not criticism, just concern, and at that only concern pointed towards MP aspect of Sins... Last night I simply saved my game vs AI and will continue the struggle today - no problem... I am having great fun and game plays awesomely...

But, unfortunately, I see this expansion as final nail in MP coffin - again, not because it plays badly, but because games will take AGE to complete...

So my initial feeling about Entrenchment is like this ------> :D :(

Happy and sad at the same time...

 

EDIT:

 

My personal msg to IC guys - at this point, when we are near completion of first expansion... You MUST, think about something in regards to MP... My suggestion is to immediately focus on 2nd expansion which should be focused on MP aspect - extra game modes, mission objectives, maps, scenarios, whatever... anything and everything that would "expand" MP options from conquest mode only and be fixed at about 45 minutes per round... Please, for the sake of the game itself :)

 

 

31,864 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

The problem only occurs because people build way more starbases than they need. This goes for the AI as well, though the Beta 2 AI is much better about this than the Beta 1 AI was. Beta 1 AI would just spam starbases in every gravwell it seems and spend money pumping them all up to max.

Also, do you know what type of AI you were facing? It might have been a Defender.

 

 

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting DeadlyShoe, reply 1

Also, do you know what type of AI you were facing? It might have been a Defender.

Have no clue... I always set up AI random + hard...

As I said in original post I really don't know how to treat or categorise this...

Perhaps as a problem? Or just concern? Or something else?

 

Sins is very unique case in every sense and this is coming from a gamer who is enjoying computer games since early days of C64!

More I play Sins more I love it... It is easily in my top 5 game list of all time - maybe even top 3!

 

But, there is always that but...

 

It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO FREKN time demanding its insane...

And with latest Entrenchment this time demand is going to get increased by xy fold! Fact...

 

:s

 

 

 

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

It helps a lot to increase the income, build time and culture rates in the options. Set the AI to Aggressor and they'll concentrate on fleet building.  Or you could set it to Unfair and it will spam huge fleets and fully upgraded starbases :o

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Speed wise - my game is set on fastest :)

I might experiment with unfair and aggressor!

 

By the way - while we are here...

 

Has anyone else noticed HUGE increase in time required to finish the round (be that in SP or MP) or is it just me!?!?

Could be just me since I played only one game so far...

 

But employing logic to it somehow I can't believe I am an isolated case here...

 

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

I think to speed things up in Entrenchment MP without changing to much. Is to start with the starting position colonized. With 2 civ, 2 mil labs, and your cap factory already in place. There are maps that do things like this and it goes pretty well.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Lord_Dark_Cloud, reply 5
I think to speed things up in Entrenchment MP without changing to much. Is to start with the starting position colonized. With 2 civ, 2 mil labs, and your cap factory already in place. There are maps that do things like this and it goes pretty well.

That will surely help but do you really think it will be enough for scenario like:

- 20+ planets (not to say more)

- equally experienced players on both sides 

- all sides fully "entrenched" 

Do you really think that this kind of MP game can be completed in reasonable time even with your suggestion in place!?

Quite frankly, I somehow doubt it...

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

There is no problem.  With any game, whether it is Starcraft, or Sins, if both you and your opponent decide to turtle, then the game can go on indefinately.  Entrenchment doesn't add anything new there.

If you want the AI to attack you, perhaps you should set it to 1)aggressive, and 2) unfair, and see if that helps anything (it should, I'm guessing).  You probably had it set to random, which means there is a chance it got set to defensive.  Also, any kind of easy setting makes it so the AI doesn't attack.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Lord_Dark_Cloud, reply 5
I think to speed things up in Entrenchment MP without changing to much. Is to start with the starting position colonized. With 2 civ, 2 mil labs, and your cap factory already in place. There are maps that do things like this and it goes pretty well.

The solution is just what you said - in the maps.  In other words, there is no need to change the core game for everyone (I happen to like it the way it is), rather there simply needs to be a variety of pre-set maps as you described, which will have the effect of faster games for those who want it.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

rather than the suggestion of starts with a colony already up and labs ... why not give more resources. like an option at the start, low- medium - high resources. the difference is that with resources instead of pre built stuff, you can still chose what you have. granted, it's not quite as fast, but still. also, the high resource start could include starting with extractors and capship factory already up and running. I mean seriously, building them is like one of the first things you normally do in the game. my suggestion in detail:

low starting resources: what you have now

medium: starts with all hw extractors already up, plus a capship factory

high: same as medium, but with a few scouts or possibly even other ships ready and extra resources.

one thing that could be done in any case, maybe have the game stay in pause mode for 10 seconds at the start of the game. that way, you don't have to hurry around giving construction orders so much. you can zoom out, see the allies, go back, order what you like, give move orders if you have ships, etc. all that is then executed after the 10 secs.

you could take that further still and implement a fast start option proper. give a little time, maybe 30 secs. lots of resources. and you can place all the stuff you want. when the game starts, the stuff is already there. sort of like an editor prior to the game.

just some ideas. there are some ways to speed up the start, but as you noted, speeding up the end is a lot harder. I'd say the point where both sides are entrenched is certainly frustrating, but it can be broken. at least in some cases, superweapons play a part it cracking such a situation. then there are defense busters. I wouldn't fiddle too much with it, because that is still the main part of the game. where you could try to shorten it, is when the game is effectively decided, which is not as much of a problem in mp, as ppl leave when the see no more way out, but still ...

I mean one thing you could do is to try to involve starbases more into the concept of running costs of the empire. so that entrenching heavily will not only consume resources instantly, but also over time. I mean it is a bit strange you need to support every measly frigate in your empire, but huge starbases not. if they took some fleet supply, then building and upgrading many of them will eventually get you into higher upkeep or leave you with a smaller fleet. not sure if that really goes for faster games or if it's even a good idea, but it would make entrenching become difficult over longer time and make it easier for a non-entrenched opponent to eventually overcome the defenses.

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Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Agent, reply 8
In other words, there is no need to change the core game for everyone (I happen to like it the way it is), rather there simply needs to be a variety of pre-set maps as you described, which will have the effect of faster games for those who want it.

Exactly...

I like the core game too - no, in fact, I love it!

But can I please finish single bloody round, be that SP or MP, in some sane time bracket!?!?

Your suggestion with maps can defo help this! 

I agree :)

 

In any case something needs to be done about this for sure... at least IMHO...

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Shadowhal, reply 9
rather than the suggestion of starts with a colony already up and labs ... why not give more resources. like an option at the start, low- medium - high resources.

Arguably easiest solution and the best suggestion so far :)

Well done man and signed!

Would love to see this feature...

 

EDIT:

 

I don't easily give karma but you deserve one with your reply :p

Take it!

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Update with part 2...

Read OP at the top :)