[OPINION] Beta 2 Thus Far

just a few precisions^^: the lightnings bolts seems to come from an item bought by the enemy ai; and the odd voice of the oak is just here to test the sound system; there will be an other voice in the release.

I agree with what you said and i want to add that adding differents models for dark and lights creep would greatly improve the gameplay, since being able to identify immediatly your foes and allies is very important.

Thanks for that info Fred_Bonaparte. I wonder if the item we speak of (speaking of the lightning) is something available to us human players as well as the A.I.? Not a big deal right now though.

I disagree with a random chance to damage on bat form, this has a huge negative impact on its use vs demigods.  I think hitting the damage, but having it consistently applied is better.  Your description basically turns the skill into a crap shoot.  I may hurt the demigod, I may not.

But the Bat Form skill is primarily meant to transport Lord Ereban from 'X' to 'Y', is it not? The damage delivery is great and important, but also as other posters have concluded and I think correctly, too wonderful versus Minions even in early stages. The Torch Bearer who is a specialist at mass cleansing (!) can`t Ice Rain-slay Minions that quickly. A *huge* negative effect versus Demigods? I don`t think it would be quite that consequential in the long run. Crap shoot versus Demigods? Maybe... we could use more crap shoots.

Actually, since the game seems squarely aimed at Human Vs Human competitive gaming, "crap shoots" is what you DON'T want. "I won/lost because I/the other guy got lucky." does not make for good competition. Skill should be what matters, not luck.

(fyi, I'm not a big fan of percentage chance effects on items either, but at least you CHOOSE to buy those)

I want to chime in here, because some comments I want to make are in line with some of the OP's comments.

Almost off topic; I think you have to learn to utilize oak, his ability to inspire troops is crucial to his play...Obviously a counterpart to Erebus, but one of "honor" as opposed to "deceit", I don't think it's as effective, but it is pretty useful.

The problem I'm having, is that I think Erebus is overpowered a bit, honestly, his ability to decimate troops with charm, bat swarm, and mist makes him an incredible force. The problem with that is...That you are in part reliant on your followers, (catapultasauri and giants leap to mind) and with erebus ability to move in and out of battle quickly, the ability to tear apart followers, and modes of attack that make him unassailable, it often takes a demigod to kill him, where others are threatened by many of the followers, and he's hard to hit. Granted that's a "character" element, but it may have a problem when juxtaposed with gameplay. I think in a broad way the design is good, but a team of three or four erebus against a more "balanced" team will likely win. Erebus getting away from most followers is an easy task, except those that are airborne or have missle weapons. Which are actually a little rarified in the game.

Which brings me to a second point, game balance, there needs to be a reason to choose a demigod. The characters are variated, and that does lead to propensity and facility, but in an overall way I think it lacks some balance...Perhaps a lot of balance. The example I posed before came up in a game I played, in which the opposing team was four erebus, and I think an unclean beast. It was complete decimation. And the other team was well "balanced" I don't recall exactly what I was playing, nor the entirety of the team I was on, but erebus ability to move can be unassailable or very close.

All of the demigods have character and are compelling, but in terms of gameplay it's obvious, in the available mode of play, that one demigod does not equal another, which is good, but...The idea that you would need a variated team to make your assault makes for a better game. But that doesn't seem to be the case. I think there are more and less effective demigods at the moment. The complexity of the characters makes for really compelling characters, but a difficulty in terms of balance, and I think this is an issue. I don't want the demigods to lose their depth as characters, but I do want balance as well.

Also, game modes. I feel like I'm playing Control point maps a bit at times, control the neutral gateways and you win. It has more depth than that obviously, but it runs the risk of becoming like granary in Team Fortress 2..running back and forth overturning crucial neutral flags. Repetition may be the mother of learning, but it can get tedious, and once people see the importance of those particular flags, the repetition may ruin the gameplay type. I think I read that you intend other modes, which I'm all for (considering what I'm thinking about the gameplay modes now).

This, brings me to another TF2 comparison...the maps need asymmetry. CP maps don't get much play anymore in TF2, and the reason is repetition, people have mastered those modes. Presumably you know this, but hopefully the comment is useful.

Some positive comments...The avatars and settings are beautiful, the characters have depth and a fair variety of them, and the complexity of power maneuvers makes the game engaging.

Random factors are the spice of life. Poker wouldn't be nearly as exciting, and most sports are played outside where a change of winds can be deciding factor. Good players anticipate and plan for randomness - removing it for "competitive reasons" is dumbing down a game.

You can't plan for randomness.  I'm guessing you've never played Smash Bros Brawl and lost a match to tripping.  (Serious players have items off btw.)  Or played a turn based RPG (like Pokemon) and lost to someone because they got a critical hit on every turn.  (Serious players banned evasiveness raising moves and OHKO moves btw.)  If a match comes down to a crap shoot then everyone loses.  The victor got cheated of a fair victory, and the loser only lost because he was unlucky.

Comparing a carefully crafted competitive video game to poker is like comparing a duel in the Wild West to Russian Roulette.  There are times and places for luck.  Demigod is not one of them.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. Yes, it sucks to lose to luck, but it's what makes games thrilling at times. That lucky proc of boots that helped you run away in time, or that 5% crit working just as they're starting to run away.

Yes, it makes things a bit more random, but not everyone has to ban weapons on SSMB, some people play it to have fun.

I'm not against playing games for fun, just as long as it doesn't get in the way of the competitive people.  That's one reason why I like how you can turn items off in Smash Bros.  There are a lot of people who like them, but serious players don't appreciate the luck.  All you have to do is make them an option and everyone is happy.  (Although I wonder if anyone would choose to turn tripping on in Brawl given the choice...) In the event that there is no way to make it an option, like what I believe is the case here, the serious players should get the benefit of the doubt.

And it doesn't just suck to lose to luck.  It sucks to win to luck.  I don't play for the thrill of winning, I play for the thrill of outplaying other people.  If I win based on luck, then I didn't outplay the other guy.  I just got lucky.  There are times with my friends when one of us wins something entirely due to luck, and all of us, including the winner, say something to the effect of "Wow, that was lame."  If we want luck, then we'll go play Poker.

I am aware that there are items that can screw with you via luck in the current build, and I don't like them.  I would rather that they operated constantly, activated on hit (so with the boots for example, you could run away but not charge in), or activate on every X hits (the boots, for example, have a 20% chance to activate, so instead make it activate on every fifth hit).  With the exception of the boots, none of them are really all that amazing, and since they are entirely optional, I don't have a huge problem with it.  If Bat Swarm were changed to be as the OP suggested, then it would be a very influential aspect to the game.  I can't tell you how many times I've taken out fleeing Demigods with Bat Swarm as a last ditch effort.  If it was made to be awful (read: luck based), then I promise you that the course of games will shift depending on if it does damage when it needs to or not.

I say you make it purely for transportation and allow it to bring nearby minions along for the ride.  Myabe decrease the cost a little as well.  I don't think it needs to do damage.

Of course you can. Generals have been doing it since the beginning of warfare, Sports players have been doing it since the sports they play have been invented. Planning for luck is what seperates brilliance from mediocricy.

That's why brilliance has backup plan for their backup plan. If one single roll of the die screws you over then you didn't plan nearly well enough.

Neither generals nor coaches plan on luck, they plan on staying one step ahead of their opponent.  They plan on their people being better, they plan on their strategy being better, and they plan on everything going wrong.  All you can do is plan for the worst and hope it doesn't come to that.

Although, I am rather curious as to how you think generals and coaches have to put up with luck constantly.  Generally, they make educated guesses based on the current situation.  Frankly, if you aim a gun at someone and pull the trigger, as long as you kept proper care of your weapon and your aim is true, that person is going to get shot.  Some people rely on luck and that's fine by me.  However, once relying on luck actually gives you an advantage instead of making up for lost skill (read: 5% chance of that item giving you a special ability vs. hoping the other guy will attack into your ill-conceived trap), then I start getting ticked off.

Proper planning can remove virtually all chance from a situation.  Throwing a random number generator into something (5% chance) is introducing unnecessary luck that goes beyond the natural realm of life and reality.  Do football coaches get a 5% chance on touchdown to score extra points?  Do generals have to put up with mortars that have a 10% chance to deal 500 damage to all enemy troops in a 10m radius?  No.

So when you come to making a competitive game, how do you handle it?  Well, I would suggest looking at what worked.  Starcraft worked.  Chess worked.  How much luck is in either of those two games?  Oh wait, I forgot, Knights have a 33% chance to be able to move twice in one turn .

There is a line between natural luck and artificial luck.  Natural luck is a substitute for skill.  It exists everywhere in life and is a major factor.  However, the more you know, the lower the chances of you getting this "luck".  It's like trying to TML snipe someone in SupCom and not seeing that they have TMD until after you build and arm your TML launcher.  Or it's like relying on the enemy not trying to TML snipe you and ignoring TMD (or the opposite, and randomly wasting resources on it when you don't need to).  In either case, if you just scout the other guy and stay well informed, then there is really no chance of you getting "unlucky".  Alternately, artificial luck is stupid, like your 5% chance to get a Win Button.  It doesn't exist in real life, just in slots, cards, and random number generators.  You can't plan on it, you can't overcome it, it just sits there laughing at anyone trying to take something seriously.

And sometimes that single roll on the die is all that matters.  If you're playing for a thousand dollars against someone equally good as you, how much room for error can you afford?  Not much, that's for sure.  You can't always plan on being unlucky.  Don't tell me you've never had a close game like that where it all came down to one moment.  Not becase you did a bad job or because you planned poorly, but because the other guy was an even match for you and you only had the one ace.  Sometimes, the worst luck simply can't be overcome.  At higher levels of play, higher than either of us are likely to go, something as little as a 5% chance of an extra 100 damage can change a game.

Interesting debate, even if it segued on from something completely different. I'm not saying I don't agree with many of your points on luck and competitive games (I play Street Fighter, and dabbled briefly in Starcraft before Korea got in on it), but I don't think Demigod is being designed as a pure competitive game. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong, as always, these are my opinions and opinions only.

%Affect items are a staple of the RPG Genre, which appears to be one of the guiding factors in Demigod's development. The problem I have with your descriptions of Artificial vs Natural luck is that in gaming there is no natural and artificial luck per se; they are one and the same and dictated by how your own luck (this natural luck you speak of) interacts with the mechanics built into the game. Any interaction between the two players is between them, not luck. 

The computer is limited by the contraints of the programming, so it falls to the developer to introduce mechanics to simulate luck by adding random chance, or to remove them; in RPGs, this is the critical hit/critical failure; you have a 1/20 chance to score double damage, or you roll a dice to see if you hit/dodge or not. RPGs and RPG hybrids invariably introduce some form of luck based mechanic into the game, it's an intrinsic part of how they are made. It's why I personally can't take Pokemon seriously as a competitive game; it's based around luck to start with. A purely competitve game can have none of this; in order to make Demigod a purely competitve game you would have to break it down and remove what makes it so unique in the first place. Not every game has to be designed a pure competitive game, but every pure competitive game has to be designed with exactly that purpose in mind. Trying to turn a game with a luck based mechanic into a pure competitive game is silly, and that way madness lies.

Since when is relying on Lady Luck something bad? Is being genetically predisposed to skill somehow better than being genetically predisposed to being lucky? Isn't the effect the same in the end?

Okay, let's look at what worked. Let's look at Poker, which has tournaments, same as your examples, with prize money that far exceeds either of your examples. Let's look at Skiing, which is watched by millions yet is played outside where weather plays a huge part.

Do football coaches get a 5% chance to score more points? No. Do their players have a chance to get a lucky gust of wind that pushes their attempt just that little bit further making them score the point in the first place? Yes.

Do mortars have a chance to deal more damage? No. Is the very nature of them hitting and doing damage in the first place based on a variety of completely random factors that can change on a moments notice? Yes.

Randomness is everywhere in sports, warfare and live. There are very few competitive games that have no random chance element.

Incidentally, your oh-so-great Starcraft also has a random chance element. There's a 50-50 chance to miss units that are concealed.

I would add that there is randomness in human reaction speeds, in the accuracy of mouse selection, and in the efficiency of the thought processes in your brain as you strive to quickly & logically grapple with circumstances. Chess is a sterile, static, uncreative pursuit, something I do not want replicated in Demigod and therefore too something that is a terrible parallel to Demigod.

Ignoring items, which rely upon luck to a considerable degree (!), entities in the game *already* rely upon luck for effect - the chance that Erebus raises NightWalkers for example.

To a point that Mooglepies made, I believe that if Demigod wants more depth they must stray closer to the rpg, not to chess. Chess will provide scientifically predictable outcomes, the rpg will provide longevity and *fun*.

About Erebus and Bat Form/Swarm,

Though I believe the chance of damage delivery is the ideal, another option would be increasing the energy cost of the ability. Being inventive, make the cost of Bat Form/Swarm 50% of Erebus` maximum energy, no matter his level or items. So even at high levels, when all other abilities have become more economical, Bat Form/Swarm still takes a gargantuan half of his energy. That might encourage more careful and less blaise usage of it.

As for The Oak, having lots of fun playing him. I suck, but he`s lots of fun! I have to endeavour to rely upon his minions more and attack enemy minions to sustain mine.

Sadly, both of the Generals are currently overpowered, by the look of things.

This was my implied point. I'm not interested in Demigod as a hyper competitive RTS. For a start it's not an RTS. It breaks down some boundaries of genres for me (I never played DOTA and my playtime with Warcraft 3 is somewhat limited), and I'm interested in seeing how far this concept can be taken, but not in the competitive direction. This is fairly virgin territory, and while I see no reason that a hardcore competitive community won't spring up around this game (as happens with every other multiplayer game), I don't think that's the audience or approach that's being aimed for and it's, personally at least, not where my interest lies.

The first thing we need to do is take a hard look at Batform and decide whether it's primarily a damage spell or a transportation spell. Making it both means you have to gimp it in some other way, mana cost, cooldown or otherwise, that it'll probably be unfeasable in both roles.

I understand that Demigod has a heavy RPG influence and is going to have some luck based elements.  I don't like luck based elements, but I do understand that some minor things will undoubtedly make it into the game.

The real deal here, and the reason why I brought this up, was that something as powerful as Bat Swarm shouldn't be luck based.  It is just too powerful an ability to have a 50% chance of doing damage.  I know that luck will have something to do with everything, at least to some extent.

I said, "5% chance of a Win Button" several times.  This is obviously an exaggeration, but that is really my main point.  5% chance of 100 damage can change the course of the game and I don't like it, but it is still fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.  50% chance to do Bat Swarm damage (which is fairly high, although I don't recall the actual numbers) is a major make-or-break deal.  Similar to how OHKO attacks are banned in Pokemon.  It isn't because they don't want any luck in the games.  Heck, the games practically revolve around luck.  The official reason is that it throws the game "too far into the realm of luck".  It is literally a 40-ish% chance of a win button.

Basically, I don't like luck.  If it was up to me, I would try to get rid of it at every corner.  However, it isn't up to me, and I'm willing to make compromises.  Minor luck elements aren't totally game breaking, and I can live with them.  Something as big as Bat Swarm being luck based is my main problem.  I think it throws the game "too far into the realm of luck".

Back on topic, I agree with Daton.  We need to first decide if it is for damage or movement.  I think it lends itself to transportation better than damage.  I mean, the fundamental concept behind it is a method to move Erebus around the map.  He is also supposed to be able to get in and out of battle quickly.  I think Bat Swarm should be his primary method of doing that and levels should primarily increase the range he can move.  (He should also get it sooner after the nerfs.)  Many people, myself included, think that he should be able to bring nearby minions with him.  Many people, myself included, think that all abilities should have a special bonus at the end of their tree like Regulus.  I think you could put the two together.  As you invest points, you get to move farther and perhaps more frequently (less cooldown).  The last level grants you the ability to bring nearby minions with you.  Thoughts?

Actually, I'd got for range increases with levels, the ability to bring minions with you from lvl 1, and the last level upgrades it with a minor damage or debuff component. Maybe have the last level remove debuffs (remove roots/snares or break stuns?) on Erebus if you want to keep it damage-free. One of the reasons I'd like to see Bat Swarm movement primarily, is because no other Demigod has what is basically a teleport skill (as far as I can remember). It's fairly unique and fitting to his theme.

Although I`ve referred to Bat Swarm as primarily a transportation capability, I would not wish to see it lose its damage aspect. Eliminate the damage aspect and you wind up with simply an Elven Cloak teleport... which is Elven Cloak Teleport. May as well be "Bat Swarm" in that case. My idea to impart a chance of damage per unit affected seems to address the ability both mechanically and mythologically (some people get bitten, others are fortunate).

I`m honestly more concerned with the utility of Mist. Its a very cool and necessary (!) feature of Erebus which I personally almost never utilize. Yet I want to.

I keep wanting to say "Lord Ereban"... I think whereas Erebus is a Lord Of Vampires, Lord Ereban is Lord Of Underarms...

My thoughts on Bat swarm particularly are that, should Generals stay as they currently are (assassins with minions), the transportation aspect should remain the same and the damage toned down. I will agree that Demigod primary abilities (not talking about passive abilities, I'm fine with them being slightly more %based) should not be "X% to do Y Damage". Your demigod abilities should be reliable in what they can do. Items on the other hand, and passive effects I am fine with.

I like this.