Double touche here.  It's hard to compensate for both areas of gaming and it basically comes down to what SD/IC decides is best in their interests.  As they have constantly boasted that they are for the gamers (and haved proved this time and again)...this issue will be a hard decision either way. 

I personally would like to see a campaign, but only after they fix some of the other issues with the game.  These issues are being fixed with the first 2 micro-expansions (better defense abilities and better diplomacy).  So, maybe the third expansion is going to be along the lines of a campaign mode.  And if not...maybe they are planning a campaign for after the 3 micro-exp's.

Overall, I trust in what SD/IC is doing and accomplishing and SALUTE them on a very great game and a very great job of supporting this game.

Then SD/IC have to make a choice. Improve the game for single player or for multiplayer? And what about for both at same time?

Here some facts that need reflexion :

On multiplayer, I usually see between 30-100 people online per day and the community is split between version 1.12 and entrenchment and will still be divided after the final release of entrenchment. That being said, I assume there is much more single player that play SOSE, or meaby I am wrong???

For now, the only way to improve single/multiplayer at same time is to improve the gameplay (Wich SD/IC is doing now for the next months). You guys say that MEABY the third expension will have a campaign but you really think that the single players want to wait a year for it?

Another point is that the games are just too long. That's why there is not many people that plays online. So yes, for now, I'd say that multiplyer is for ''hardcore gamers'' (it's just a term for me that describe ppl that spend many hours on games). And plz don't say that you can play a little map online so it takes 1-2 hours. I know it already but it's boring to always plays the same type of map.

you can still do med. maps on fast resources and finish games fairly quickly.  But there are some of us that like the longer games and would rather have that.

Thank you for the suggestion, and as i havent been in mp yet, i would like to take your suggestion and try. I probably will make a lousy team mate until i can learn more, but it is a way to try something new. Thank you!!

-Teal

Just a quick thought, but would a campaign editor give the community something that those who want it can use, and those who dont can bypass? I mean it may be easier to make an editor ( i am guessing of course) that users can use to make their own campaigns, in this way it has more to offer each player, than a single campaign?  I am just guessing here, but thought it would let everyone do what they wanted and it would be variable with each game. Just a thought.

-Teal

While Sins is a real time strategy, it plays more like Turn based 4x classics like Master of Orion, Space Empire, Galactic Civ, or Sword of the Stars.  This is an old genre that predates almost all others.  None of these have a campaign in the way that starcraft had one.  They all trade a random generated, dynamic campaign for a static one with character voice overs.  The value seems higher to me with the radom generated universes.  I never know what a scout ship is going to find that first time it jumps out, and I like that feeling.  A simple difference, like a great choke point, can mean the difference between an easy win and a long slug fest.

Starcraft's campaign was excellent, but during the second time through the missions seemed a bit contrived.  If Sins went that way I would be a little disapointed, but I would definately pay $10 for it.  Perhaps a better way to go would be to add more radom factors like world subtypes, space monsters, nuetral factions, or system wide events (Phase space intability oh noes)...and get Ron Pearlman.

What about having a campaign that can change and be random at all times.  The core of the campaign starts the same, but then can change according to how things progress throughout the campaign.  That allows for the ability to have random maps and systems, and other random events to take place and occur.

This could really be an interesting idea that could open some really sweet scenarios and instances for a campaign mode.

Space Empires had no campaign either, but the immense modability made it possible to make your own stories- along with races, civilisations, entire Universes. I still play SE4 sometimes, in one of my favorite mods.

GalCiv had a campaign, as many of us know, but it wasn't the extra challenge that made the campaign appealing; after all, I still can't beat Apocalypse in anything but beginner

it was the chance to get into the  story, and feel like you're part of the tale while playing, that made the campaign appealing. Also, it did help improve your gameplay, by getting you acquainted with the methods to handle and lead your empire to victory under different circumstances.

I can also think of straight RTS sci-fi games that had a campaign, like the old Frontier Wars, and the forgotten Imperium Galactica. In both cases, getting into the campaign helped you getting good at the game. And that also showed in your PvP games later (for FW at least).

My point: I don't think people say something like "gameplay needs a campaign, otherwise it's not complete". Noone says that. They say that it's them (as players) who need, not a campaign, but a story. Not just a narration, but an actual story, with characters and plot (and an ending). Let's face it, we're all playing here, and playing, down to its most basic level (the same we used when we were 7yo) is about recreating a story. It makes the experience more enjoyable.

Players like to be able to know more about the characters and factions and nations they impersonate: Even if the game is not an RPG, it brings out the basic roleplay element that is inherent to any form of "war game", ever since we were kids.

And you know what, I actually believe that having that story can help improve our games in the long run. And I don't just mean  how different campaign settings might help players learn, improve or devise strategies (although that can happen, too). I mean that, as time goes on and our interest for the game (unavoidably) wanes, this aquired "roleplay"element may keep players involved, and even renew their interest by setting rules by consensus (like behaving in a certain way ingame, according to your race). It's worked for other games.

Campaign modes are for shi... poops and giggles.  Something to mess around with to give a little cerebral hook and a bit of titilation.

This game in my (and the Clan I'm in) opinion is it's a one shot deal right now.  People play around more within a storyline/campagin.  They realise then just how much the AI sucks* and that gets them playing online. That story gets people playing, and keeps them playing; and it gives the game a longer life cycle to (1) the players (2) the developers.  Think about it... everyones mentioning Starcraft here - I'm sure everyone at some point in that after a few days of hardcore online play just chilled out, slapped the difficulty up and ran the campaign for the background/plot or poops and giggles.  You don't get that with hook with a sandbox mode.

Without a single player or even multiplayer co-op campagin it's a limited audience - it becomes even more niche, ergo - limited multiplayer opponents.  Why should peeps put time and effort into mastering a game that's going to have a limited shelf life?  One that got mentioned a lot in guild was Haegemonia - legions of iron.  What's the units sold there and what's the units sold here?  What was the multiplayer like there long term?  Haegmeonia had different issues but 9 months after release no one had heard of it.

You got DoW 2 / Starcraft 2 and Total:War Empire coming out next year.  What will give this game longevity, and hold players, when you got some very big titles coming over the horizon.  In my opinion, without a DoW/Total war map or a campaign you're missing a vital component that sucks people in and keeps them playing longer.  But hey that's my opinion and my cash staying in my wallet.

I'm actually a big fan of very niche games.  I gotta old beat up PC running '98 for some.  Thing that keeps them running is community.  Reading the above - can't say I'm seeing much of a comminity either.

* All computer AI's suck.

PS no offence to the guy who said gaming 18+ hours a week - your hardcore gamer does that in a day.

A campaign mode would be good, but I have another idea. Since the story mentions a war, why not do an EndWar-style online war, with the three factions having systems they start in and the players fighting the war?

Thats not a half-bad idea.

I think that this would be best way to do a campaign for Sins. Something random and always different. For example, you can choose to capture planet A or planet B. The campaign storyline changes radically depending on which planet you capture.

I have little interest in a campaign, but if it was different and unusual, then I would like it.

Too often, campaigns are simply skirmish games with different AI, cutscenes, specific objectives and ergo, fewer options.

If a campaign is made, then a campaign editor is a must.

Good morning all!

I got this game for Christmas and was extremely pleased.  $40 Retail box.  I don't buy online because I don't have a Credit card (got in trouble with them when I was in college), and I hate pay pal.  Anyway the intro movie was great.  But I was extremely disappointed when I discovered that Sins didn't have a campaign.

I've been playing Star Dock games since Gal Civ II and have really enjoyed there games.  I really like the company.  However, paying $40 for a game with no story doesn't set well with me.  You know I liked the sandbox game in Gal Civ II, but I didn't expect to be getting a sandbox game only.  I don't care for multiplayer RTS games.  I've never cared for them sorry.

Looking at these posts in this topic I was very disappointed to learn that most people are saying "oh, it's ok I'll pay more money on an expansion".  If I have to pay for an an expansion to get a complete game.. come on I mean this is irritating to say the least.

I am not trying to be argumentative and I wont reply to childish rants from fan boys.  But I have to say my faith in Stardock has been shaken.  I was also agast at Zubaz's reply, especially since he's a mod!  Is angst tollerated in stardock representitives?

I really am not trying to cause problems but my expectations in a product were not met nor was I informed as a consumer that the product I was purching didn't have a campaign!

I agree.

That having been said, I think the game needs some sort of campaign simply because so many people are crying out for one.  It would be nice if a campaign editor were made so that custom campaigns could be created.  (Never underestimate the ability of enthusiastic fans to produce high-quality custom content that is far better than the standard content.  Gaming companies should support custom content since it increases the value and replayability of their product at no variable cost.)

----------------

Here's a repost of my version of a proper ending for the single player "campaign".  Perhaps players could get involved with the online multiplayer community and forge their own stories as they wage personal campaigns to earn respect and to make a name for themselves and to be part of championship-winning clan.

Here's my version of the ending for a single-player campaign:

As the last of the opposing capital ships exploded in a brilliant display of space pyrotechnics, signaling the end of a long and grueling, hard-fought campaign, a fog clouds your senses.  You emerge from the fog, awakening from a deep slumber and realize that it was all just a dream and that you were only fighting silly computer algorithms in training simulations.  Just as you are coming to your senses and before you can collect yourself, your great uncle, the Emperor strolls in unannounced:

"You have done well in the training excercises and because you were born into an influential royal family, you are going to have the opportunity to command one of our fledgling micro-empires."

His adviser turns to you and says, "You can command your micro-empire from this very computer terminal, the same one that you trained on, but first we need to set up an account for you with our command headquarters for security reasons before you can get online.  Now, don't let your victories over mindless AI in the simulator deceive you into feeling cocky and overconfident; you're really still a noob.  Welcome to the Ironclad Online multiplayer system.  The real challenge begins now."

......And thousands of newly commissioned commanders played the game in online multiplayer with great enthusiasm and realized that the real challenge comes from playing against human opponents and that the real Sins game is in online multiplayer for those who aren't scared of coming online.

.....And the players made a serious hobby out of the Sins game

...and they formed clans and over 100 clans competed on competitive 3v3 and 5v5 ladders

...and they learned how to use Internet Relay Chat and voice comm programs like Teamspeak2 and Ventrilo

...and they used a computer program to help them spontaneously organize 5-on-5 pickup game matches (PUGs) where team captains drafted the players for their teams resulting in balanced teams and intense, competitive, epic games

...and a strong and cohesive, tight-knit online community developed and many online friendships were formed

...and they learned to overcome the game's lack of auto-downloading for custom maps and hundreds of custom maps and game mods were made and they played the best ones online

...and the game and the community and the sense of camraderie held their attention for years

...and they were all very happy that they had discovered the real Sins game and that they hadn't been too chicken to come online.

The End.

(Events like this actually happened to varying degrees with the original Unreal Tournament, Quake III, and Counterstrike and people still play UT99 capture-the-flag 5-on-5 PUG matches to this day.  In fact, on Sunday night December 28 a player draft was held for the 19th season of the Major League Unreal Tournament capture-the-flag competition--not bad for a 10 year old game. )

I distinctly remember the Homeworld campaign.  A game many (including SD) have compared Sins to.  I'm glad you like the game as is.  I do not.  I enjoy the sandbox, but I want the campaign as well.  Thx for your opinion, I wont dis it and I hope I garner the same respect.

If you bought the box, you should have a serial number in it. All you have to do to play online is to go on ironclad online (when you lunch the game click on it and put SOSE as a safety program in your firewall) and make an account with your serial number and that's it. If you already paid 40$ for the box, you don't need to pay anything else to go online so you actually don't need a credit card.

I agreed with this whoel-heartedly.  Zubaz's remark was very un-called for as a moderator.  I dropped this whole line of conversation with this mod because everytime I tried to explain my opinion on the matter, this said mod just continued on with comments and statements that were basically smart-ass and be-littling comments rowards me.

At least that's the way that I took them to be.  If I am wrong, Zubaz, and this is not how you meant them...then I apologize, but I tend to believe that I am not wrong in my thinking and that you believe you were right in making this very rude comment and then those replies to my concerns over this matter.

As I said in an earlier post...this reply and post by Zubaz is just horrible (from a mod) and I, for one, am glad that someone has recognized this and feels the same way that I do.

Spydyr

same here, when I saw that i was like "wtf? he's really a mod?"  I think he needs a refersher course on ethics xD or just needs a few chill pills.

Or perhaps he had a few too many...

Just to be clear with what I'm saying.  I don't want to start anything or cause problems for Zubaz but the comment sounded short and dismissive.  Also, except for the absence of a campaign the sandbox game is really top quality.

In regard to the comment above about multiplayer.. I don't care about playing multiplayer and I know how to get into it no problem.  I'm saying I don't want to have to pay for a campaign in an expansion, not the multiplayer bro.  I've never cared for RTS multiplayer games.

Hmm i agree with the fact that a story mode would be intereting but! I would like to refresh your memories about a game called nexus the jupiter incident. Now this game was a l ot of fun and had many good rating espacialy in the story and gameplay . So why is it that it did not win #1. Well becuz it had a story behind a fixed one that was way to long and when u want to play it well u get bored becuz of the same cutscenes . My point here is yes it would be nice to have a story behind it but i doubt that ppl will be finding any use to it all that much and that its worth spending the money and time to do so. It would have to be some thing like the storys of halo which as many didferent sub-storys. My favorite is field trip to harvest very well done!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwh2_ssqHIo.

Akkan117.

Sorry, but couldn't let this stand.

Actually, it's like accomplishing all of what you said with only nine pins instead of the standard for bowling - ten.  The guy who asked for single player campaign is someone who walked by and said "Awesome, but why nine pins?".  You're the bowler's friend who insists on beating up anyone who asks that question.

Third expansion = third installation of story. When the 3rd expansion has netted you the first pieces of storyline- you -should- call it a complete fail [and why? There was so much good stuff in the documentation!]. The reason this game failed to captivate many is because they had no attachment to any particular race and/or unit, it doesen't really have starting conditions: same objective, different map. So go play multiplayer, you say? Well, check the technical forums on that... desynchs and other fun problems galore. Been waiting a long while now for a version that works all around [that I can, for instance, record my endeavors with... sheesh guys, seriously, how did you miss that? You beta for like a year, and miss that recordings are flat out broken?]

Also: I agree with needing registration to patch the game, but not with the sheer number of patches that have been released over the year. 

*puts on flame retardant suit*

GO!

I haven't had any issues with the recording of games.  I have had games record and play back correclty in version 1.12 and the beta for entrenchment on SP, MP over a LAN, and also on MP over ICO.

I completely agree with the above comments. I thought the comments by Zubaz were quite inappropriate, especially considering he's a Stardock representative.

Any word on the campaign.. yea or nay?