Brad - Please come clean

I don't know that this answers all your questions, but I found this in the GalCiv Unofficial FAQ:

Does the Ai cheat?
At levels below Intelligent it receives less than a human from taxes. At Intelligent it receives the same. Above it gets more. Also, the AI knows where all the yellow stars are, but this is explained in the backstory as they traveled the stars much longer than humans.
#7 by Diplomat Louis-guy reid - 3/29/2003 7:25:58AM
Here is a report of Brad's comments on intelligence

Intelligence

One of the things we did do during the release candidates is make the game much easier to win on the lower levels. We found that experienced strategy gamers would get creamed even when the AI was set to "fool".

But at the same time, at the medium to higher levels, the AI is much more intelligent than it was in the betas. In fact, the beta GalCiv AI was, well pretty crummy compared to the gold version in terms of intelligence (not saying the gold is "harder" to beat, but that the AI is more intelligent in how it behaves).

In the betas, each AI level simply increased the intelligence rating of the player by say 15 points. Here's the problem we had with that:

You'd play on "normal" and get a challenge and then you'd up it a level and get creamed. So a lot of the extra month of development was spend play testing and adding more difficulty levels.

So now each computer player can indvidually be set to the following difficulty levels:

[IntLevel0] 4 Fool
[IntLevel1] 14 Beginner
[IntLevel2] 36 Sub-Normal
[IntLevel3] 42 Normal
[IntLevel4] 50 Bright
[IntLevel5] 60 Intelligent
[IntLevel6] 65 Genius
[IntLevel7] 100 Incredible

With the corresponding intelligence being 4, 14, 36, 42, 50, 60, 65, 100.

We may tweak these or add more after released based on what you guys say.

So now, you have sub-normal, normal, bright, intelligent and genius quite close together. I have not personally won with all the AI's set to genius on a medium sized map or higher. And incredible is just, well the AI gets lots of extra stuff.

Speaking of extra stuff, how do the resources get handled?

The intelligence ratings do two things: 1) They determine how much money they get from colonies.

So in pColony->CalcTaxesCollected() at the end it gets:
ulTaxes = ulTaxes * (40 + ulIntelligence);

So at intelligence = 60 (intelligent) it's getting the same from a colony as you. At Genius it's getting a bit more. And at incredible, all bets are off.

The other way intelligence matters is that it determines whether the AI is going to
a) Do a thorough analysis on what players are doing
Which AI scripts are available to use, and
c) Determines whether the AI is going to do anything about it.

Example:
An AI with intelligence 60 will be able to check out its sensor areas and see if you are building up for an attack, fortifying starbases, trying to culturally dominate it, etc. It will then have to roll to see if it is going to do anything about it. I.e. "Do I recognize this as a threat or am I too dumb to see this?". If it rolls that it is going to recognize the threat then it has to roll whether it's goign to actually do anything about it. And if it is going to do something about it then it rolls to see if it will tell the human player about it (if it's a human player that is the threat).

IF the AI FAILS the roll, the human player gets a message from the AI letting it know it's on to what it's doing. Otherwise it quietly lowers relations and prepares for a war.

If you play on say Genius, and build up star bases and ships in a sector you're planning to attack you'll notice ships from other sectors quietly coming in to fortify. Fighters shadowing your transports. Etc.

But on lower intelligence levels, none of this happens. Which is one of the changes. So when you get the game, on Fool and Beginner you should be able to play the game without getting creamed now. This is different than it was in the beta when fool was = Int 15 and the next one up was 30.

by Avatar Frogboy - 3/5/2003 4:02:14PM

~SDC~

-AI can exceed range limit for colony ships

Yeah I would like some enlightment on that one.

Today, I started a new game with a giant map and the AI was able to build it's 2nd colony 10 SECTORS away from it's main and only planet. Then I was able to watch its colony ships moving freely between both of those. There was no starbase and no civ. did surrender to them.

BUT, on the other hand, what is disturbing is if the AI was able to travel anywhere on the map why did it go 10 sectors away from it's main sector while some high quality star systems were free 1 or 2 sectors near it's main planet and it didn't bother to colonize them 1st.

Maybe it was a bug because some turns after the beginning one square became completly clear in its main sector (while I couldn't visit it yet since I was somethinlg like 10 sectors away from it still). For information the sector was close to the edge of the map and this visible square was also at the edge of the map. So maybe there is some kind of warping colony ships bug if the AI starts in a sector near the edge of the map ?

~SDC~

aweill,

I'm not talking about the income multiplyer. That has been well documented.

I'm interested in the SPECIFIC things that I've mentioned. A simple yes or no for each one is all I'm looking for.

As far as I'm concerned, the silence so far has been deafining.

I bet it's Magnate Civilization migration ... oops, wrong game ...

~SDC~

As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care. I want a challanging game, and if the AI needs to take advantages (especially at higher levels) to make up for what it obviously can't do.. (think and strategize like a human), then fine by me.

I guess someone might be upset if the game 'cheated' in order to be a fun challange. To me, it isn't a big a deal. I'm in no way foolish as to believe that ANY game AI is even remotely close to what a human can do, as far as planning, being sneaky, or finding tricks to win.

Many of those things listed were peoples assumptions though, based on what they are seeing. They may be misunderstanding some of them. Some may well be true.. but it doesn't bother me.

I have 2 criteria for an AI only computer game. 1. Be challanging. 2. Be fun. So far, GalCiv is challanging, and it is fun. The means by which the computer gets to the ends does not concern me as much. I *would* be preturbed if it did some blatant cheat I couldn't control.. for instance, if I was closing in on a ship for battle, and it mysteriously vanished, or upgraded, or some other ludicrousy. But I haven't heard or seen this.

fleabitfox

Padlock is totally trolling. You guys did a good job providing enough info, and he is so obviously NOT going to be satisfied with anything you might say.

If you doubt he might be trolling, just look at the basis of his question. He doesn't state or even imply that his fun has been impacted, he just asks what he thinks are embarassing questions.. T R O L L !!

Back under your bridge.

he is not trolling. he's asking valid questions. where do you get this troll stuff from? of course, calling "the silence deafening" after 30 minutes is kinda silly.

cheers

h

I say the questions aren't valid unless you are making a point with them, such as "if these conditions are true, then they ruin the fun of my game". I say they are written in an unnecessarily provokative manner. I say they have troll written all over them. Plus, I trained my Trollomatic Occular on his post and it went off like a steampipe at quittin time..

AI does not exceed range on ships.

Every time someone has emailed me about this "bug" or "Cheat" I've found that there is a starbase or something that the AI has built to extend their range.

Similarly, AI doesn't know where ships are outside its sensor range. I wish it did because about 30% of the time spent CPU wise by the AI is calculating whether a given ship is in sensor range.

AI has to research the same techs you do.

AI doesn't know the quality of planets before hand. It only knows where yellow stars.

What the AI does and doesn't know has been documented for months, is in the manual, is in the back story, etc.

BTW, my participation in these forums is optional.

Make no mistake, if the forum were to degenerate into a bunch of "Brad come clean" or other, in my view, disrespectful forum topics, I won't hang out here.

I can assign technical support people to answer technical questions. Is that what you want? If no, then please refrain from accusatory post headings.

wow, don't i feel like a tool for defending him...

cheers

h

Brad,
Ignore that loser! He somehow thinks that if the lead developer doesn't respond to his post within 20 MINUTES, there must something to hide. Gimme a break!

You're doing an awesome job for everyone here. Don't let a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else.

Gah! Don't leave.. there are to many of us that much appreciate your participation! Don't let a couple disgruntled MOO fans getcha down. WE appreciate you!


fleabitfox

In my games I would argue the AI clearly does NOT know where the resources are, at all!

BRIGHT level:
Playing on a large map and there are two resources (count 'em) that have been unclaimed since the beginning of the game that I've known about on the far side of the Torians. I've had a drone sensor eyeing them for me for quite awhile but I don't have the resources to spare to grab them yet as I'm in a heated war. The Arcean's declared war on the Torians and in attacking them my drone spotted one their ships flying out by the resources. About 10 turns *later* a Constructor was launched and enroute (I had a Corvette behind their lines, reeking havoc). I destroyed it. NO ONE else has made a run for these resources, thought the Drengin could do it without anyone doing anything as they have more power than I could stop. So far I've screened the area successfully.

Also, there were THREE resource RIGHT by the Yor. I had found them and sent out a constructor to claim whatever I could- I didn't expect any. The Yor claimed one, and then didn't bother about the other two AT ALL- they were on the edge of the map, and according my best intelligence, their survey ship had simply taken another course toward the center of the galaxy, where the Yor found other resources that they claimed.

AI clearly ALSO does NOT know about where all the goo dplanets are: I had an area I'd left unexplored for quite awhile, then I woke up to the fact, sent a scout ship into it and discovered a white star with a class 20 planet around it! No AI in sight...

I've NEVER encountered an enemy colony ship outside of its proper range. I have a feeling you guys don't know how to use your sensors adequetely and have yet to discover enemy bases and even enemy occupied stars.

The AI also clearly does NOT know where my ships are, as my task force of Starfighters and Corvettes has been continuously proving to them again and again in my current game.

First of all I was not trolling. My 'silence is deafining' comment wasn't in reference to my post, but to the questions appearing in other threads that have been asked, and until now, not directly answered.

Brad, I'm sorry if you feel that my post was direspectful, but I was simply trying to get a definitive answer on these questions.

Dearmad, I agree that the AI does not know where the good planets are.

"BUT, on the other hand, what is disturbing is if the AI was able to travel anywhere on the map why did it go 10 sectors away from it's main sector while some high quality star systems were free 1 or 2 sectors near it's main planet and it didn't bother to colonize them 1st."

The example above supports the idea that the AI does not know where the good planets are located. How many times have you explored in one direction with the survey ship, only to find out later on that there was a sweet planet just next door? Happened to me enough times to prompt me to buy a second survey ship relatively early in the game.

~SDC~

Edit: buy a scout ship relatively early in the game.

~SDC~

How about this:

New technology: Stellar Vision.
When researched, players can see ships and starbases on the mini map.

It would be expensive to get but at least then you can see everything. But the AI would be able to use it too which means it really would see where things are if it got it.

As for me leaving, I definitely plan to stay. I just noticed that quite a few posts in the last 48 hours have becoming increasingly hostile.

Let me put things in perspective, a week and a half ago Stardock central was deleting people's C:\ root and the posts from thta haven't been nearly as hostile and demanding as some of the posts in the last 48 hours. I want to help and enjoy hanging out talking about stuff with other players but I definitely don't want to feel like I'm some sort of forum servant.

I've seen posts recently practically asking that I start posting source code to prove this or that. If someone wans to believe the game cheats, then heck, that's they're right. I'm not going to devote energy to proving that the AI doesn't cheat since it should be pretty obvious that the game is playing by the same rules other than starting out knowing where yellow stars are.

That said, I will check on the alliance tech one, that could be a bug possibly and if so, easy to fix.

Brad, I think you should take it as a compliment. It's like the time I baked a great fresh pumpkin pie. My guests (including my sister) repeatedly said: "No way you baked that pie! You must have cheated!" People have a hard time believing that the AI can be as challenging as it is without cheating.

What's great is that it's like being beaten in chess. With enough study, you can figure out what the AI did and then use it in your next game.

~SDC~

Brad,

Steller vision might be good as the third to last tech or something, but other than that I *like* the hide and go seek of the game. Besides, I usually get my own steller vision by building 6 or so drone sensors. They're cheap, relatively fast enough to place, and work great!

I'd pass on the vision tech.

Brad: As an aside, while I certainly appreciate your presence here a great deal, having some tech support people around to answer technical questions might not, in fact, suck. I know there are a couple/few Stardock people around, but aside from Cari (who I'm not familiar with), they all seem to be R&D folks. Having a couple of lower-level people who can clarify game mechanics stuff would probably help a lot, and would lessen the expectations that people have that you'll swoop in Kibo-like on a thread to answer piddly crap.

~SDC~

Brad,
I think "dearmad"'s observations are realistic. I also have observed that in my most recent game - after some 10 or so turns - it yielded an unsolicited comment from my mouth - "hey, how come they got all of the yellow planets and I get J... S...!

Maybe there's an issue here... not sure.

AA

In ten turns I have 3 stars minimum and probably another colony ship flying around if not two.

But consider this. If the first star you colonize has a class 20 planet in it, and the next one you get is 19 and the next 26, you have a sort of momentum behind you where you expand faster and faster. So your environment can make a huge difference. Do NOT colonize <15 quality planets.

Remember, the *point* of the initial game is ONE thing: EXPAND. That is it. Screw technology if that helps (though eventually impulse drives and unitranslators are helpful to me), screw infrastructue, screw your budget and go into debt (intelligently) and BUILD colony ships.

One thing I *never* do though is go into debt that also carries a loan payment at this stage of the game, not even for 3 BC. That causes trouble. I buy outright one (maybe two) ships and then build the rest.

Seek ways to get your production as near to 100% as you can without taxing people into hiding.

I might be able to shed some light on one of these questions (the colony ship one). I think there
could be a wrap around bug working here. I am playing on a tiny 5x5 galaxy. The Drengin started in
the lower right corner of the map and spread immediately to the upper left corner. I am still playing
this game, so I can send a save if you want it, but I don't have one from real early in the game..

~SDC~

Brad am I too late with the bucket bregade?


~SDC~