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Unlimited expansion by us and the players

Unlimited expansion by us and the players

Some of the concepts we're talking about will be hard to envision without actually having the game but one of the real innovations we're trying to introduce with Elemental is the concept of unlimited expansion.

The key to this is not hard coding civilization capabilities but rather leaving them open-ended.

So let me start at the beginning:

When someone first gets into Elemental, the relationships will be simple between things. A player who wants to design a horse mounted knight will need to have researched animal husbandry which lets them train horses. They will need to have a city that has used one of its tiles to make use of a herd of wild horses on the map. They will need a mine on a metal deposit to create the armor.  And once they have all those things, it'll be a matter of training and equipping the knight.

The above example is one of the more complicated relationships one will see initially in Elemental...

But what about users who want to keep making more and more sophisticated relationships?

Maybe I want to have knights equipped with sunfire dread chain mail riding tamed Demon steeds and the knights have a secondary power of carrying tomes of unmaking which vastly increase their damage in battle?

Well, there would be a host of technologies one would have to have researched. There would have to be spells researched as well and new city buildings that produce these tomes and then have been enchanted to make these tomes magical. The demon steeds would require various technologies and the finding of demons to be tamed in the first place and so on and so on.

How do you control the level of sophistication here so that it doesn't become too complicated?  The answer is with a new series of game options that are practically games unto themselves.

Because, did I mention, that all the things mentioned in the second example were things produced not by us but by players and broadcast to all other players so that you have access to them automatically? No expansion packs needed. No paying for mini-content needed. It's just thousands of players creating cool stuff and broadcasting it to one another.

So here's how players control it.  They have a screen called the Bestiary where they can control what types of creatures are in game. When someone broadcasts content, Stardock moderators rate and define it more closely. From this screen, players can decide what types of creatures they want, the quality of the submission desired (we will rate the broadcasts in terms of production values as well), etc. These creatures will have associated technologies that are attached to them that are required.

There will be additional screens for managing resources, techs, etc.

So for most players, they will probably stick with what we include or maybe a handful of expansions that Stardock provides. Others will insert some content made by other players. And still others will go for a truly huge scope experience.  But the point is that players control this.

Now someone might say that a lot of this sounds too ambitious. But Stardock already does a lot of this, today, right now, on WinCustomize.com with its non-game stuff. 

Now what is the gameplay result of this? One of the cooler things that will result is that the units that players make use of will really be different from game to game. And there will be a real pay off in the battles for players who have managed to assemble the necessary components to create some of the truly sophisticated units.

In multiplayer, the default it going to be the least common denominator settings. We will probably have other options but we won't know until we've had a chance to play it online with you guys to see what other settings are the most fun.

198,403 views 83 replies
Reply #26 Top

Cool concept.  It allows SD to release either mod packs or individual units for real money along with the possibility for the same from users.  Hopefully a vibrant modding community will collectively contribute great content as well as the opportunity to purchase high quality stuff from SD.

This will really enhance the replayability of the game over time and allow a continuous revenue stream for SD, which seems like a win for everyone.

Reply #27 Top

On the wincustomize side of the wall "Master Skinners" have the option of selling thier skins (mods).  Win-win-win for Stardock, modders, and users!

Reply #28 Top

Cool.  When users submit entries, how long does it take for them to get reviewed?  And is that done by a panel of folks or does the first reviewer to see it rate it?  And can you appeal a rating?  I'm not familiar with the way this currently works, so sorry for the barrage of questions.

It'd be sweet to see SD farm out some of the reviewing to select individuals such that you could customize your content to show:

  • Elemental release stuff only
  • Stardock releases only (expansions, etc.)
  • Appointed SD Reviewer content
  • Community voted content

probably in that order from the most controlled to the least.

I assume there will also be incentives in the community to rank/rate content.  Maybe such that if you rank/rate 50 items, you get some sort of free content from SD?  That would be a good incentive and help the community.

 

 

Reply #29 Top

I'm thinking that since units are probably going to be created via an in-game system... the production time, materials required and costs will be relative to what is used and not some arbitrary number set by the user-creator. This in and of itself is a balancing factor. Your super knight unit with a cannon javelin arm and speed enhanced axe who rides on a magical ballista made of iron that fires flaming jewelheaded bolts of exploding death will require so much resources that by the time you finish one your enemy will have an equally ridiculous unit or several versions of a lesser unit.

I'm pretty excited about this feature as I am for many of the other systems already revealed. I know there are a few things I want to create. Dragoon Knights who can jump over squads of enemies to create a flank would be awesome, for instance. :D

I'm also hoping that the same massive amount of customization is available for factions/civilizations... IE: a faction whose speciality is training and handling non-standard beasts for infantry and riding.

Reply #30 Top

Simple questions:  If we do pre-order, will copies of the player dev tools ship with it?  Or is there a way to get them earlier?  For that matter, is there a balance guide, libraries, and/or ways to improve/customize the tools themselves?

Reply #31 Top

how long does it take for them to get reviewed?
Our target is 5 business days but we usually beat that.
And is that done by a panel of folks or does the first reviewer to see it rate it?
A little of both.  If it's a good rating by the first moderator it goes live.  If it's lower we wait for a consensus.
And can you appeal a rating?
Yes.  But it won't change.  ;)  The mods are choosen from the community based on experiance and balance (not spellinng).
I assume there will also be incentives in the community to rank/rate content. Maybe such that if you rank/rate 50 items, you get some sort of free content from SD? That would be a good incentive and help the community.
Most of the incentive lies in being recognized within the community.  Download counts are displayed too.  Again, select individuals are able to sell their content.  I don't know how this model would carry over . . but it's there as a starting point.

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Reply #32 Top

Thanks for the follow-up info, Zubaz. k1

Reply #33 Top

No proble.

 

I have to  restate thought that I have no idea how the elemental system will work . . just that we have processes in place that should give us a starting point.

Reply #34 Top

I like it. Using existing bits and bytes to create new units, then assigning them tech needs for each added component such that when you finally hit save, the unit will be wearing, toting and riding whatever you want, but the cost and or Tech required will be linked back to SD'd base Tech and reseach Tree(s).

As noted by E_MacLeod. You design, the underlying Tech/Research system determines the cost and possible availability.

That system, if actually realized, has 2 immediate bonuses. A boatload of user created materials to pick from and the game and not the designer decides when and how each unit will be allowed on to the field of battle.

That way, the Drider riding Knight of Absolute Doom, won't ever be seen in a game that doesn't last at least 3 weeks. LOL :)

Reply #35 Top

experiance and balance (not spellinng)

Please tell us this part of your otherwise swell followup is humour. I'm Floridian and throw in the UK spelling to note that 'creative' spelling is not the same thing as sloppiness. Even if we're talking about pure shareware and nothing done in hopes of earning money, I'd really be disappointed if a moderator-based system routinely gave top ratings to content with sloppy spelling. Among other things, Elemental already has a multi-lingual audience and if we Enghlish-only weaklings want them to play with us, we'd be better off if our English was generally 'correct' and consistently 'incorrect' when it suited the flavor of a content item.

Reply #36 Top

Please tell us this part of your otherwise swell followup is humour.
I am known in other Stardock forums for my "creative" spelling/typing.  Other members have even started speaking in "Zubish" to mock me.

On a more serious note, for the other user submission processes we dont' mark down for spelling/grammer.  We understand that English is not the first language for many of the users.  That being said, there is nothing stopping the community from pointing out errors so that authors can't re-up corrections.

The point really is that the other systems are for the community; by the community.

Reply #37 Top

the kinds of units and things you can build are more controlled by the presence of resources on the map, how does this relate to how one faction is differentiated from another?

Good question. One of the great things about MOM was the different units and diversity.

So how will units differ in visual / play terms between factions?

Reply #38 Top

@Zubaz, reply #22

Thanks for the info. Sorry about the delayed reply, I've been a bit busy.

Anyways, so any ideas as to what we might be able to customize about the units? How about other stuff?

Reply #39 Top

Anyways, so any ideas as to what we might be able to customize about the units? How about other stuff?
Unfortunatly those questions are well outside my scope.  I'll have to wait and see the same as you will.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Lord, reply 3
Cool.  When users submit entries, how long does it take for them to get reviewed?  And is that done by a panel of folks or does the first reviewer to see it rate it?  And can you appeal a rating?  I'm not familiar with the way this currently works, so sorry for the barrage of questions.

It'd be sweet to see SD farm out some of the reviewing to select individuals such that you could customize your content to show:


Elemental release stuff only
Stardock releases only (expansions, etc.)
Appointed SD Reviewer content
Community voted content
probably in that order from the most controlled to the least.

I assume there will also be incentives in the community to rank/rate content.  Maybe such that if you rank/rate 50 items, you get some sort of free content from SD?  That would be a good incentive and help the community.

 

 

 

Well in the case of the GUI Champs (http://www.guichamps.com) we have a panel that does the first pass and users do the second.

What I suspect will happen is that Stardock moderators will take the first pass at Elemental submissions and then they'll be available to elite Impulse community users to come up with the specific ratings and keywords and such.

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Reply #41 Top

I hope the magic works on the same generative principles.  So few games have glyph-based magic, but I alwaysw have the most fun with them.  DO ANY MMORPGS HAVE GLYPH-BASED MAGIC?  One early game I remember that did it well was Keef the Thief (1989), in which you could combine alchemy ingredients to make whatever potions you wanted.  There was another game of the same era in which you controlled 4 adventurers in an isometric perspective in a quest to ... quell evil.  In this game, you designed any magic spell you wanted from ruins such as DAMAGE, SURROUND, TELEPORTATION, MISSILE, SPEED, etc.  Once your wizard got enough experience, you could cast spells that would pretty much clear the whole screen.  I've got to find and play that one again.

*edit: the game is "Legend" by Mindscape in 1992, though it was published in the US as "The Four Crystals of Trazere." I thank the wonderful game browser at mobygames for making it possible for me to easily find it just by knowing the genre, camera-type, etc.  I want its magic system in new games, especially an MMORPG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Crystals_of_Trazere

Reply #42 Top

Unlimited expansion by us and the players

Hopefully the unlimited expansion comment also includes gamers being able to:

1) Create and/or adjust quests

2) Create and/or adjust timed events

3) Create and design personalized maps

4) Create new items, potions, weapons, and armor

 

 

I'm really impressed with Stardock and very eager to for 2010 to arrive.  :)

Reply #43 Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 17
[...]
I'm really impressed with Stardock and very eager to for 2010 to arrive. :)
Yeah, dammit! This year is taking too long already!

:(O

Reply #45 Top

To be honest, I think it would be more interesting to see random sampling of new features everytime you create a new game. It will increase re-playability, and also put more incentive toward shuffling your strategy.

One game could have a single vein of Mithril in the world, along with a lost artifact of the One Ring lost somewhere. With a few nests of Reptilian Drakes, etc... Players could come up with proper technologies to research the One Ring magic (to create 9 for the Race fo Men), but only available in games where the One Ring appear.

But the next game, 4 races of Dragons are disseminated around the map, and they have to be dealt with special way (hunt for uber-item and treasure, or tame for mount?). In Very Large Games, you could have up to 20 unique features that would probably only show up once in 20 games, most of them user-made.

I like the idea of having to research a technology to deal with a special ressource only after you've encountered that very ressource.

Yup.. that'd be cool... +1 Brad.

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 20
To be honest, I think it would be more interesting to see random sampling of new features everytime you create a new game. It will increase re-playability, and also put more incentive toward shuffling your strategy.



I like this idea...am I understanding it right?  Lemme do my version.

Each time you start a world there are different variables that determine the 'flavor' of the world.  AND possibly the player does not know right away what these factors are.  Maybe there is a rarity of horses, or abundance of dragons, or metal is virtually non existent ( game breaker?)

I can see how if the wrong variables get implemented the game may become impossible...OR I don't know...is there enough means for the player to pursue to overcome most any problem.?

IE dragons are common, metal is not.  Instead of well equipped warriors maybe the player has to rely on numbers and large stores of food for an almost too large population of mediocre pointy-stick wielders to go remove dragon problems.

This would probably have to be an option I guess...or maybe highly limited to what is randomized in this fashion.  But I like the idea that this 'feature' would randomize end-game play.

Most games that have random maps and encounters still use the same inventory every game, so the player know what the most powerful creatures and spells and items are at the start...so they know when they are maxed out for effectiveness.  The 'best' equipment never changes game to game, just the path.

GalCiv2 works well this way.  Having the best weapons and armor is not going to ensure victory, in fact depending on the game following that path may lead to certain defeat.  You have to figure out what type of victory is easiest (or most fun) to attain and figure out your own path.

PROBLEM:  It would SUCK to find out 10hrs into gameplay that you are not going to survive the game because the variables are so overwhelmingly against you the game is in fact impossible.  So I assume there would have to be a 'weight' system to these so that +/- can be relatively balanced.

Side note: I also like the idea for major events in this game.  This can change your path completely.

Reply #47 Top

It would SUCK to find out 10hrs into gameplay that you are not going to survive the game because the variables are so overwhelmingly against you the game is in fact impossible.  So I assume there would have to be a 'weight' system to these so that +/- can be relatively balanced.

Not neccesarily. In fact, a game called 'Dwarf Fortress' actually has a moto of "Losing is fun!" http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Fun

IMO, losing can be as fun or even more fun than winning. A slow struggle for survival can be much more interesting than what usually turns into a steamroll to victory by the end.

Reply #48 Top

I like this idea...am I understanding it right? Lemme do my version.


Each time you start a world there are different variables that determine the 'flavor' of the world. AND possibly the player does not know right away what these factors are. Maybe there is a rarity of horses, or abundance of dragons, or metal is virtually non existent ( game breaker?)

Exactly. You are effectively playing a different game every game.. Or at least, a different environment that is different with other things than just the shape of the map.


I can see how if the wrong variables get implemented the game may become impossible...OR I don't know...is there enough means for the player to pursue to overcome most any problem.?


IE dragons are common, metal is not. Instead of well equipped warriors maybe the player has to rely on numbers and large stores of food for an almost too large population of mediocre pointy-stick wielders to go remove dragon problems.

Yes, but think of it. If such occurence would happen, where metal is rare, you'd end up with a world focusing its research on magic weilders. Armies will be primitive, but mythical. That's what I like in a fantasy world: there is always an alternative.

And no metal + Dragon = Wizard Dragonriders. You'd end up with a world filled with magical beasts, with wizards and priests trying to tame and harvest them for supremacy.


This would probably have to be an option I guess...or maybe highly limited to what is randomized in this fashion. But I like the idea that this 'feature' would randomize end-game play.


Most games that have random maps and encounters still use the same inventory every game, so the player know what the most powerful creatures and spells and items are at the start...so they know when they are maxed out for effectiveness. The 'best' equipment never changes game to game, just the path.

I am not sure about that. I like the randomnization of elements that would be harvestable in the gameplay, it means that the endgame units will be different from game to game, the strategies involved will also be different.

Also, please remember: what happens to you also happens to your opponents. The player won't be 100% screwed just because there arne't any metal in his part of the world. None of your opponents have metal either. So it's a race for a different kind of warfare. If you happen to face an ennemy that have the single source of metal of the world, he focused his technology on metallurgy, which might cause a surprise against everybody... But then again, he will probably be lacking in some technological field that the non-metal opponents have focused on.


PROBLEM: It would SUCK to find out 10hrs into gameplay that you are not going to survive the game because the variables are so overwhelmingly against you the game is in fact impossible. So I assume there would have to be a 'weight' system to these so that +/- can be relatively balanced.

Side note: I also like the idea for major events in this game. This can change your path completely.

A weight system might be nice, indeed. But then, remember a basic mantra: you aren't changing the circumstances of a single faction. You are changing the world. all the factions will then suffer or thrive equally because of those circumstances..

I'd understand why a city which has access to the only source of Iron of the world would be a "King of the Hill" situation, with everybody wanting to seize it. Does it make it un-playable? Maybe. Does it make it fun? Hell yhea. You'd end up with strange situations in the game, and avoid repetition.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting alway, reply 22

It would SUCK to find out 10hrs into gameplay that you are not going to survive the game because the variables are so overwhelmingly against you the game is in fact impossible.  So I assume there would have to be a 'weight' system to these so that +/- can be relatively balanced.


Not neccesarily. In fact, a game called 'Dwarf Fortress' actually has a moto of "Losing is fun!" http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Fun

IMO, losing can be as fun or even more fun than winning. A slow struggle for survival can be much more interesting than what usually turns into a steamroll to victory by the end.


Dwarf Fortress reference... it takes a certain type to play that game.  I'm scared to go into Fortess building. :)

@ Cikomyr: Just a few things to point out about my statements. I tend to ignore discussing magic in a game just because how undefined it is...magic can be used to fix anything (ie a simple dragon slaying enchantment on said sticks).  And I ignored the other team in my ideas because my concern was not of losing, was that neither side could win.  Glad I understood your ideas, means I didn't waste my breath  :)

Now to clarify MY standpoint.  I'm not really afraid of a 10 hr dead end game.  My concern is what would appeal to reviewers and a broader base, there needs to be a safety against this 'problem'.  One that us crazy people can turn off.  I'm one who has a more profound interest in the flavor of the game than the results but I do understand also this game needs to sell, and if a large enough people are put of by a feature us in the minority enjoy...it will hurt the future of this and other games.

A sample of my personal achievements are as follows, not finishing GT4 or Fallout3 (too much fun sandboxing), rarely complete a GCII, Sins, or Dom3 game (lose complete track of what my plans were in large games after coming back), afraid to build a fort in DFortress. 

However, not finishing these games is not a problem, I love their style.

I also liked but wanted to love the Heroes of Might and Magics... But i couldn't, the game always turned into a steam-roll.  To me the mechanics of those games very much show that winning can be very boring.  This is what I don't want Elemental to be like, I liked the HMM styles but hated the end game play of a super army hunt.  Which happens in Dom3 too but thankfully there are other paths to victory and the mighty army chase doesn't happen EVERY time as it does in HMM.

And seeing these games referenced here, (dom3 and DFort) and open-door policy SDock has had with GCII...I have a tremendous amount of confidence in this project.  I think all the right minds are here to make this a game I will have a ton of fun with.

Reply #50 Top

I really hope this game meets 20% of my expectations.