Rhishisikk Rhishisikk

Animal Husbandry (or, How Badly do you want those Bear Riders?)

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Animal Husbandry (or, How Badly do you want those Bear Riders?)

from Elemental Forums

Oddly enough from a technology thread.  I thought the idea merited mention as its own:

To what degree should players need to domesticate animals?  Obviously horses and griffons are in the mix, and I've heard mention of Bear Riders.  This gets me thinking: why not halfling boar-riders?  Battle Cattle?  Chickens of Doom?  Ravaging Rattlesnakes?

In other words, to what extent are the animals just threats to be exterminated, and to what extent can they be harnessed to strengthen one's army?  Look at bloodhounds and messenger pidgeons, each of which has changed war in their own way.  So what if the trees get angry and crush people?  If my diplomats can convince them to crush those (my enemy's) guys, why shouldn't I reap the benefits?  Why NOT have forestall orchards, where the young are raised and trained until ready for the front lines?

Oh, are the skeletons, zombies, and ghouls beginning to overflow from the graveyards AGAIN?  Okay, maybe I send in my heroes to remove the problem.  OR maybe I'm willing to sacrifice some of my people to train them for battle.  A mass of peasants with clubs, brass swords, and farm implements?  Oh my.  EAT THEM, MY MINIONS!  Does my morale and loyalty suffer?  Oh yes.  But who needs loyalty when you have troops that keep fighting when their heads are lopped off?

I would propose something SIMILAR TO Colonization.  You have a limited number of resources, which need to be divided between your populace and their animals.  Want sheep for that yearly wool bonus?  Low maintenance.  You want flesh-rending gryphons or bears to mount your elite archers upon?  Well, you may be looking at enough maintenance that you've MADE your army choice.  But having the joy of watching a thousand badgers mangle the 'prehistoric horde' of club-men my enemy sent in the early game to disrupt my economy?  Priceless.

I would recommend a slider system.  Possibly a single slider for the nation, which could be over-riden by the town sliders, with a button for ENFORCE THIS on the kingdom menu to make all city sliders agree.  Or an overall 'animals' slider, with percentages based on the animals I have access to. 

Hrm, possibly put these controls into a tab that only opens with Animal Husbandry research.  And then have higher techs for training different animals as mounts. 

Not complete yet, but I like where the idea is going.  When do we get enough knowledge to start our modding?

81,854 views 96 replies
Reply #76 from Elemental Forums Top

Riding (originally Equestrian, but defeats the point): The ability to make a saddle specific to a movement type. For example, bears are large. The same saddle tech that grants bear riders grants rhino riders.

So, you need:

1) mount resource of animal

2) ability to train it as a mount

3) proper tech for the rider to stay on: easy for a horse, not so much for a skyshark.

And YES, I know I'm probably missing and/or over-generalizing the tech tree.

seems reasonable enough for me.    Now, what about magic bears or other mounts?    You might be able to skip the tech to train them.   That would be substituted by the existance of  the spell to summon mounts.

Reply #77 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Rhishisikk, reply 25
Luckmann states my case best - include everything, but make sure it balances.

I'd modify that to "include as wide a variety as possible, so long as the differences are still relevant."

[/quote]And yeah, we'll have to mod in the bears, and probably 2/3 of the mounts mentioned in this thread.[/quote]

I hope not! There haven't been that many different mounts mentioned. I think there've been bears, pegasi, horses, camels, tigers, sky sharks, elephants, spiders, scorpians, griffons, unicorns, 'chocobos', giant eagles, plus maybe a few others. Any of the ones which could be considered magical would be extremely rare, leaving the number of suggestions for regular mounts in this thread to number at maybe ~7 or 8. I hope at least 5 relatively common mounts will be included with the game, plus at least that may magical ones!

Quoting Rhishisikk, reply 25
I'm not seeing a [bear riders] tech option, unless the entire tech tree is that specific.  What I *DO* see:

Riding (originally Equestrian, but defeats the point): The ability to make a saddle specific to a movement type.  For example, bears are large.  The same saddle tech that grants bear riders grants rhino riders.

Maybe. But size probably isn't the most important aspect of saddle design. I'd imagine the physiology besides size would be more important (where are the limbs? where is the most stable position for the rider? How does the animal move?). Personally I'd just bundle the saddle tech into mount training tech (they do go hand-in-hand) for simplicity. Breaking up the training/saddle into separate techs doesn't really add anything. But overall, I think your idea would be the right way to go about mount-related technology/research.

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #78 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 2
[...]
Maybe. But size probably isn't the most important aspect of saddle design. I'd imagine the physiology besides size would be more important (where are the limbs? where is the most stable position for the rider? How does the animal move?). Personally I'd just bundle the saddle tech into mount training tech (they do go hand-in-hand) for simplicity. Breaking up the training/saddle into separate techs doesn't really add anything. But overall, I think your idea would be the right way to go about mount-related technology/research.
While breaking down techs makes "sense", it'd add extremely little. From a gameplay perspective, is there any reason not to have a tech that gives bear riding, end off?

Of course, I'd say that it'd be a good idea to bundle it together with something else, as well. Bear-riding could come with a more general "Foraging" tech that gives.. I don't know.. trees or something.

And a carnival. There's got to be a carnival somewhere in there, too.

Reply #79 from Elemental Forums Top

Some folks elsewhere have talked about wanting some sort of 'open' tech trees. Seems like the Animal Husbandry branch could be a good place to work something like that out, at least in terms of variety if not endlessness. Instead of Tech A inevitably leading to branches A1, A2, and A3, why not have the root Animal Husbandry craft simply enable you to develop a specific craft for each type of useful animal you encounter? That way, if your people worshipped bears and thought riding them a horrible sin, you'd not have to include things like Bear Riding in your research but that wouldn't stop you from mounting swamp scouts on giant frogs.

In other words, Animal Husbandry could be a major parent node with a wide range of possible branches off it, each one grouped by species. Within each species, e.g. giant frogs, you might begin with Herding (create and maintain your usable critter pop), move on to Harnessing (plows, carts, & chariots), then to Riding (basic cavalry), and finally to War Training (true warhorses & analogs).

Reply #80 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GW, reply 4
Some folks elsewhere have talked about wanting some sort of 'open' tech trees. Seems like the Animal Husbandry branch could be a good place to work something like that out, at least in terms of variety if not endlessness. Instead of Tech A inevitably leading to branches A1, A2, and A3, why not have the root Animal Husbandry craft simply enable you to develop a specific craft for each type of useful animal you encounter? That way, if your people worshipped bears and thought riding them a horrible sin, you'd not have to include things like Bear Riding in your research but that wouldn't stop you from mounting swamp scouts on giant frogs.

In other words, Animal Husbandry could be a major parent node with a wide range of possible branches off it, each one grouped by species. Within each species, e.g. giant frogs, you might begin with Herding (create and maintain your usable critter pop), move on to Harnessing (plows, carts, & chariots), then to Riding (basic cavalry), and finally to War Training (true warhorses & analogs).

I refuse to use such noble animals as the bear for plows, carts or chariots! Are you insane?!

:(O

Reply #81 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 5

I refuse to use such noble animals as the bear for plows, carts or chariots! Are you insane?!

LOL if your people worshipped bears using them for ANY reason would be a sin so have no fear.

Reply #82 from Elemental Forums Top

I refuse to use such noble animals as the bear for plows, carts or chariots! Are you insane?!

plows are something not for noble animals.

Chariots though?  Not the same as a plow or measly cart.  No, chariots being lead by bears is a force to fear!  The only thing worse then a guy riding on a bear could be a guy riding 2 meters behind a pair of bears in an armored vehicle!

edit:  Pics for refrence

how can you tell me that doesn't strike fear into your heart.   Noble or not, you strap something as deadly to the back of them and any creature is improved on the battle field.

Reply #83 from Elemental Forums Top

I should have known that with nearly 7 billion on the planet, someone had already hand made a bear-drawn chariot fig.

Quoting Luckmann, reply 5
I refuse to use such noble animals as the bear for plows, carts or chariots! Are you insane?!

Well, that's another interesting question for a possible 'next-gen' tech tree. I was thinking a linear set when I muttered about Herding, Harnessing, etc. But maybe you should be able to flat-out skip some crafts if you're willing to pay some extra research cost to go directly from point A to point C.

Or maybe a whole different approach would be to have a pair (or more) of similar Animal Husbandry root nodes that distinguish between people who identify a species as a resource first vs. identifying them as "like people" or "our heroes" or just outright deserving worship.

On a semi-threadjacking note, man, I want to know more about the possible mechanics behind that shaman concept art. Are those shamans intermediaries between channelers & regular folk, is there an established spirit world we haven't heard about yet, or will a shaman in Elemental be basically just a field medic who knows lots of medicinal plants?

Reply #84 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GW, reply 8
I should have known that with nearly 7 billion on the planet, someone had already hand made a bear-drawn chariot fig.

[...]

A billion monkeys with a billion typewriters, etc, Shakespeare, etc.

Quoting Polistes, reply 6
LOL if your people worshipped bears using them for ANY reason would be a sin so have no fear.
We don't worship them per see. We just help them realize their potential and destiny as set forth by our God-Lord Vorius Luk'Mann.

For those that have read the Belgariad/the Malloreon by David Eddings, think of the way the Algars treat their horses. While still clearly animals, they are such a big part of warfare and the culture that they recieve near-religious reverance and care. Or even better, Warhammer Fantasy and the nation of Kislev, where bears may not be as common, but are considered holy by the Cult of Ursun - they still wear bear skins, and it's not uncommon for northern cultists to wear bear skulls over their helmets. While this relates poorly to my nation, it's an example of just because you revere something doesn't mean that it has to be like the Hindu revere cows (wth?).

Quoting landisaurus, reply 7
Plows are something not for noble animals.
Exactly! That's for filthy horses and other beasts of burden!

Quoting landisaurus, reply 7
Chariots though?  Not the same as a plow or measly cart.  No, chariots being lead by bears is a force to fear!  The only thing worse then a guy riding on a bear could be a guy riding 2 meters behind a pair of bears in an armored vehicle!

[...]

How can you tell me that doesn't strike fear into your heart.   Noble or not, you strap something as deadly to the back of them and any creature is improved on the battle field.

I'm not sure. The top speed of an unladen bear is about ~55km/h. While quite fast, I wonder if it can sustain it for any prolonged duration. I was thinking of bears as the dwarfs of the animal world.

Gimli: " [out of breath] I'm wasted on cross-country! We Dwarves are natural sprinters.. very dangerous... [huff] ..over short distances."

Reply #85 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 9
I'm not sure. The top speed of an unladen bear is about ~55km/h.

What do you mean? An African or European bear?

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Reply #86 from Elemental Forums Top

actually that would be an american bear (black bear).  Asian bears I think also get pretty high speeds, but I can't find any stats for that.  As far as I'm aware neither africa nor europe have particularly fast bears (though again, I can't really find any places talking about it.  I found a UK site that said they can get up to 30 kmph and a grizzly (american) can get to 48 kmph, but *shrug*

Reply #87 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 11
actually that would be an american bear (black bear).  Asian bears I think also get pretty high speeds, but I can't find any stats for that.  As far as I'm aware neither africa nor europe have particularly fast bears (though again, I can't really find any places talking about it.  I found a UK site that said they can get up to 30 kmph and a grizzly (american) can get to 48 kmph, but *shrug*
It was a Grizzly Bear. Pigeon's question was a reference to Monty Python, which I was expecting just seconds after realizing what I had written.

:p

Reply #88 from Elemental Forums Top

Pigeon's question was a reference to Monty Python

I know >.<

can't a man counter a joke with a smart ass remark.  I thought it was funnier that way.

I thought black bears could outrun grizzlies.   All the fact sites I see show grizzlies at about 30-35 mph.  I can't find any as high as 50

update:  *punches self in face*  you were talking about Km/h... I feel stupid.   I better understand kmph, but I get so used to everybody using mph (I hate the US and our inability to get over our stupid "imperial" system) that I defaulted.    55, wow... that is still crazy fast for a grizzly

Reply #89 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 11
actually that would be an american bear (black bear).  Asian bears I think also get pretty high speeds, but I can't find any stats for that.  As far as I'm aware neither africa nor europe have particularly fast bears (though again, I can't really find any places talking about it.  I found a UK site that said they can get up to 30 kmph and a grizzly (american) can get to 48 kmph, but *shrug*

Are there bears in Africa? I've never heard of bears in Africa before.

Edit: I just looked. Apparently there used to be some bears in northern Africa, but they became extinct in the 19th century due to habitat destruction and hunting. They never made it south of the Sahara, though.

Reply #90 from Elemental Forums Top

you're now more informed than I am.  Certainly explains why I couldn't find any fast african bears.

I thought I saw a bear once in a movie that was supposed to take place in africa, but you know movies.

The africans has african elephants though.  Not as awesome as bears, but certainly tough and pretty fast.  To bring back to main topic (not that bears arn't on topic) what about other bizzar mount types.  I've never seen an elephant chariot, but why not?  I mean 2 elephants could pull a beast of a seige weapon, and the momentum on that would be a terror for sure.   Stick sythes on the ends and charge into some guys  = massive damage

if everything is plug in (buy sword and helmut for guy) then I wonder if chairots will be the same.  (buy chariot, attach appropriate mount)

Reply #91 from Elemental Forums Top

Animal Husbandry is a good topic that I am quite excited about.  But I am thinking it could be expanded.  As far as I can tell, Armies are going to be mainly Humans.  I love it because I love being human (Its my flaw, I know).  But I would like it expanded a little sometimes.  Heres my idea for the research/production of "Mounts"

In order to build the units, one must research the techs.  Some will have multiple tiers to it.  Then you have to have a building to build the right unit.  Maybe a hatchery for all the Avian/Draconic creatures.  A stable for the horses.  Maybe even the special units need their own training buildings.  A Labrynth Training Ground for Minotaurs, Graveyard for undead, etc.  Research could have several catagories.  Animal Husbandry, Monster Training, and Summoning.  Each one gives you certain units and such.

  • Mounts - Creatures that actually have to be paired with another unit.   You can pair it with another unit to make it that much better.  Stardock's example with a knight is a perfect example.  Better creatures give you better bonuses.
    • Examples
      • Horses
      • Unicorns
      • Pegai (Plural winged horses?)
      • Manticore (Can also be a unit)
      • Dragons (Can also be a unit)
      • Sea Turtles (Can also be a unit)
      • Griffons (Can also be a unit)
  • Units - Actual usable army units of "monsters" that fight along your troops.  These troops are a lot like army units but come with different starts and innate bonuses.  Also, they can be equipped, for the most part, like your normal units with acceptable limits.  Ex being merfolk cant wear boots or greaves, and anything heavy slows it considerably.
    • Examples
      • Bugbear
      • Fae Folk
      • Merfolk
      • Skeletons
      • Minotaurs

As always, sorry if I copied anyones idea.  I just like talking a lot ^^.

Reply #92 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 13
I know >.<
can't a man counter a joke with a smart ass remark.  I thought it was funnier that way.

I thought black bears could outrun grizzlies.   All the fact sites I see show grizzlies at about 30-35 mph.  I can't find any as high as 50

Update:  *punches self in face*  you were talking about Km/h... I feel stupid.   I better understand kmph, but I get so used to everybody using mph (I hate the US and our inability to get over our stupid "imperial" system) that I defaulted.    55, wow... that is still crazy fast for a grizzly
Dammit, I know I made a response to this, but the forums must've eaten it up. Less than two minutes lated I got an Egads! on all my windows of the forum, and I guess it was a hungry programmer somewhere, or some kind of rollback.

Anyway, the gist is that horses (depending on breed and training, of course) supposedly have an average top speed of ~70km/h. I believe, however, that they can maintain this high speed for long durations - while a bear can only maintain 55km/h for short bursts, to chase down their prey and suprise maulings.

And yes, 55km/h isn't something you'd expect a bear to suddently pull off. Imagine 190-270kg of teeth, claws and rage coming at you at 55km/h. I'm not saying that we should aim for the grizzly though, I'd be much more inclined to aim for a generic "fantasy" 'bear'. Especially since I consider the Grizzly by far the least coolest of the bears, despite it's obvious advantages over it's brethren.

And that's why I think that Horses should all have +2 speed and charge, while bears should have only +1 speed, a hp bonus and MAUL instead.

Reply #93 from Elemental Forums Top

In order to build the units, one must research the techs. Some will have multiple tiers to it. Then you have to have a building to build the right unit. Maybe a hatchery for all the Avian/Draconic creatures. A stable for the horses. Maybe even the special units need their own training buildings. A Labrynth Training Ground for Minotaurs, Graveyard for undead, etc. Research could have several catagories. Animal Husbandry, Monster Training, and Summoning. Each one gives you certain units and such.

Mounts - Creatures that actually have to be paired with another unit. You can pair it with another unit to make it that much better. Stardock's example with a knight is a perfect example. Better creatures give you better bonuses.

* Examples
o Horses
o Unicorns
o Pegai (Plural winged horses?)
o Manticore (Can also be a unit)
o Dragons (Can also be a unit)
o Sea Turtles (Can also be a unit)
o Griffons (Can also be a unit)

I'm confused.    are these supposed to be related?   you made it sound like you group things together like "donkey, horse, warhorse, pesasus"   or maybe "turtle, giant turtle, Dragon turtle"    but is your example supposed to show things that would come from similar places the way avians would come from a hachery?  Or are you just giving an example of a mount vs. something that is not a mount?  (seemed a little redundent, but maybe its because I'm tired ^_^;)

I like the idea of riding a manticore.  Usually they are their own stand alone beast like minotaurs, bugbears, and sphinx.

 

Pegai (Plural winged horses?)

Its "pegasi", but close enough (the 'S' is the missing link)

 

 

Reply #94 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 18

In order to build the units, one must research the techs. Some will have multiple tiers to it. Then you have to have a building to build the right unit. Maybe a hatchery for all the Avian/Draconic creatures. A stable for the horses. Maybe even the special units need their own training buildings. A Labrynth Training Ground for Minotaurs, Graveyard for undead, etc. Research could have several catagories. Animal Husbandry, Monster Training, and Summoning. Each one gives you certain units and such.


Mounts - Creatures that actually have to be paired with another unit. You can pair it with another unit to make it that much better. Stardock's example with a knight is a perfect example. Better creatures give you better bonuses.

* Examples
o Horses
o Unicorns
o Pegai (Plural winged horses?)
o Manticore (Can also be a unit)
o Dragons (Can also be a unit)
o Sea Turtles (Can also be a unit)
o Griffons (Can also be a unit)

I'm confused.    are these supposed to be related?   you made it sound like you group things together like "donkey, horse, warhorse, pesasus"   or maybe "turtle, giant turtle, Dragon turtle"    but is your example supposed to show things that would come from similar places the way avians would come from a hachery?  Or are you just giving an example of a mount vs. something that is not a mount?  (seemed a little redundent, but maybe its because I'm tired

I like the idea of riding a manticore.  Usually they are their own stand alone beast like minotaurs, bugbears, and sphinx.

Pegai (Plural winged horses?)


Its "pegasi", but close enough (the 'S' is the missing link)
 

Ah, to clarify.  First, yeah, i just forgot the S in Pegasi, haha.

Second, those were just example of mounts.  Footmen + Sea Turtle = Footmen that can..swim..>.>sorta.  Things like that.  Only related to each other as they are "mountable" by other units.

Reply #95 from Elemental Forums Top

Reply #96 from Elemental Forums Top

This looks funny, but I don't understand what is happening