If you gamers think skinning is BS then you should stop using the smiles. They were created by a....SKINNER.

Not me! I eat what I can while it's still warm and leave the rest for the other animals.

I'd like to see a statistic of how big Stardock's customization focus is compared to the gaming aspect. Since it's been said elsewhere that the customization portion is much bigger, but the gamers seem to think otherwise. An official number on this would be enlightening. (example: 80% customization, 20% gaming, etc)

All I said was that I didn't understand what all the hoopla was about and that *in my opinion* it's merely cosmetic. You act as if I killed your grandmother. 

However the smilies *were* in fact discussed and I believe at the time I liked them to Hannah Montana. Actually I still stand by that characterization.

What's with the new smilies?

Customization could be 80%, 90% or 99.9% of Stardock's business but I don't see how that makes people interested in such things better customers or warrant the attitude of superiority.

As far as being a "gamer" I have mentioned that I own precisely two games other than Solitaire, Minesweeper and whatever else came with the OS, but I guess that puts me in the "gamer" box. Fine, so be it. It matters little to me.

For the many users out there Kryo, that is fine and understandable. But when a Stardockian is showing that behaviour it is a far more worrying thing.

Comments about games and skinning is not the point, there is obviously a market for each and there will be folks who care adn those that don't. What the true issue is, and what this thread was about, is that the two camps, just because they happen to both be part of the SD family are not apt at getting along.

Wincustomize has been around for a while, so it has becaome obvious that many users/devs from WC feel that everyone, as you point out Kryo, should be aware of WC. Ok, i actually see some sense in that, WC users feel we have come into their domain, they would be reading this from wincustomize.com i assume, so they believe we have come to their site.

Much like the debate that raged some months ago with the influx of OT threads into GC2. The blending of sites mixes users with very different tastes that have joined their respective sites and are now being thrust together.

Mumble and i for instance joined GC2.com as we play the game and choose to be part of the community that goes with that. That is my one and only reason for going to GC2.com. I don't expect to find an online auction there, thats a different site. I don't expect to find user uploaded video's, again a different site. It is why it is so frustrating to find Religious/Political/JU/WC/Impulse topics on a game site. (ok i'll grant Impulse as much as it bothers me)

Had GC2 the fan base of WC and vis versa, would not the WC users be complaining that they have come to their skinning site to be part of the WC community yet find themselves bombarded by Abundant all stratagies and talk of Carriers and Governers.

Stardock may as well abandon the GC2 forum. I'm serious, why bother with the upkeep of yet another site when it's just rolled into the SD network anyway. That could be said for any one of the SD sites that don't have the traffic of Impulse/WC...Ju?

Our (GC2) threads get obscured by topics not associated with the purpose of the site, like this thread for example. I still fail to see how that helps the greater community. I have nothing ill toward skinners/bloggers. I just have a different taste and wish to be part of a community that reflects that.

Why can't GC2 be that community, it used to. The arguement can be made for any part of the SD network.

Drill'n Boss & Bebi.

You make my point further more for me. One persons opinons of his outlook of skinning does not mean gamers see skinning as BS. I love WB, i am a gamer. I can't skin but i sure use them, i just don't need to discuss the many aspects of it. As i  am sure you guys have played a game before in your lives but felt no need to join a community based on that game.

Bebi, you say gamers seem to think otherwise about skinning being bigger than gaming. Where was that written? I know i granted that WC is bigger than GC2. The argument was never about who is bigger or better but you guys seem to want to prove my point and follow Jafo with his defensive attitude.

Guys..and Gals...It matters not who is the greater slice of the SD pie. It has been proven here that the many slices do not see eye to eye and have little in common with each other.

Why we must share forums is beyond me...

Countering the statement/opinion/whatever that skinning is about vanity is hardly an attitude of superiority....other than the impression given by that comment that skinning is somehow 'trivial' and beneath a gamer.

The gamers' GalCiv as well as the skinners' Windowblinds are BOTH the products of artisans at Stardock, both valued equally.

I don't give a toss whose side of a fence one likes to prance around on....you slight skinners/skinnables and you slight the likes of Neil Banfield....you slight games and it's Cari Elf.

I'm equally happy to jump to the defense of either/all.....but I'm not going to bother explaining myself repetitiously to the deliberately obtuse.

When someone asks the question 'what is it about skinning'? expect an answer.

When someone verbalises profound indifference...well good for him.

When someone suggests skinning is for the character-flawed then expect a rebuttal.

************************

Re the Op....yes. it's a 'blog'.....though it seems to have been hijacked.

It ain't likely to change re the forum interlinking....simply because Stardock itself is multi-faceted so, too will be the forum topics/interest...;)

You guys still seem to miss the point. tha fact that you guys are so quick to jump on the defensive when an opinion was given and to attack the gaming side is, IMHO, an attitude of superiority.

Especailly when the comments are coming from someone from SD. Furthermore, i would expect an SD employee who is in a postion of power and respect on the forums to be above petty comments. I'm sure i'd find myself on the short end of a ban if i was to be insulting. Your opinon is not fact, regardless of the forum rank you may wear.

No point arguing about this anymore. You guys are just interested in making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Have at it.....

Where is the "shrugs shoulders and gives up" smilie.

Let me be just a bit blunt here.

There is one word we all need to focus on....community.  I see a lot of "attitude" going around from several sides because they don't like or are necessarily "into" the other.  That really needs to be stop as we are all, as another poster said, at Stardockia. 

The cross-forums aren't going anywhere, it's just not gonna happen.  Are there improvements that need to be made, or changes to make the experience easier for folks....maybe, and I know there are some plans in the works for them.  But regardless, people need to learn to respect one another.  There are specific forums for skinning, there are specific forums for Games, and there are specific forums for Impulse related topics.  Right now this is in the Personal Computing section which stretches across all platofrms because......personal computing is a general topic that applies to all whether it's a PC issue, or just someone looking for advice on hardware or something.

What I was arguing was that people's site of origin should be known so as to provide some basis of context as to their interests, etc.

The second point was that it should be well known what forums are shared among which sites and the relative importance placed on that forum by any particular site.

For example this forum is forums.galciv2.com/forum/1 and it's also forums.wincustomize.com/forum/1. I don't know if there any special meaning in the forum number but to me forum number 1 implies an old, well established forum. However on GalCiv2 the Personal Computing forum appears to be just a minor subforum of the Off Topic forum while on WinCustomize it's a major Category with multiple subforums below it and then on forums.stardock.com the forum doesn't even exist.

From this structure I have to assume that the WC site may very rightly feel that there is some level of proprietary ownership in that it's been "their" forum and now suddenly there are interloper "gamer" posting to threads that have previously been exclusively WC folks or whoever. I suppose I would feel the same way about response by non-GC2 folks in the GalCiv2 Metaverse forum.

The point has been made that forums will be shared. Fine. At this point all that I'm asking is the knowledge of what forums are shared with whom and suggesting that a system similar to the recently set up Forums/Site Issues forums would probably help things a lot. That way you truly have a set of known "global" forums and whenever you post or reply there you know that your audience is the world but also have a known set of "site local" forums where you're free to express yourself with primarily like minded folks.

I think such a system would be less aggravation for all concerned.

While you've made some valid points here, Mumbles, I do find this last part somewhat closed-minded... "people I don't particularly care to talk with in the first place."

I guess what I'm saying is that diversity is how we learn of things outside our own personal spheres... and humanity is as diverse in its thoughts, ideas and goals, etc, as  the insect world is with varied species.  To say that you do not particularly care to converse with people of different interests, thoughts and ideas to your own, to me, defeats the purpose of learning new things and embracing humanity for all its weird, wacky and wonderful differences.  To each his/her own is a good thing, up to a point, but when it excludes conversing with others, their opinions, thoughts and interests, you may just as well become a hermit and go live  in a cave.

As I said before, I am not an avid gamer and have no need for the latest and greatest... nor to log into Galciv or SOASE forums, either, but when some of those threads have crosssed over to Wincustomize, I have read quite a few of them with interest, not for the technicalities or specifics of the games, but to read of others ideas and points of view, etc.  Also, I better understand my wife's passion for PC game playing... and through watching her, I've learned to appreciate the artforms and skills required to create the codes, graphics and sounds that go into modern day games.  To cut a long story short, I've learned something and broadened my horizons a little more through embracing diversity... human differences and similarities.

Personally, I like the idea of having all Stardock's forums under the one umbrella... it provides that diversity of which I speak and thus opens up the world to greater possibilities... not to mention greater communication, something the World is sadly lacking in this day and age, despite the endless technology available to enable/make it easier. 

Yes, it would be better that the origins of threads/posts are easily identifiable... but still, it is not a bad idea.

BTW, Mumbles, while I was amazed at your comment and (therefore) addressed the beginning of mine to you, for the most part I am generalising and addressing the concept of cross threading = diversity/learning to the wider community as a whole, OK.

Basically the people that I don't care to talk to are the people that have already demonstrated to me that they're not going to listen to anything that I have to say and give it the least amount of credence. In this kind of case why would I want to talk to such a person. It appears to me that the only thing they're willing to hear is utter and total agreement to their position. It makes for a very one-sided conversation.

When someone tells you that every opinion you hold is not just an opinion but is an unreasonable opinion to hold while their every opinion is not opinion but fact then there is no chance of any kind of rational discourse. My closed mindedness is only in response to extensive closed mindedness that I've received from both User's and Moderator's of these forums.

Again I want to stress that "All generalizations are false, including this one", but in my personal opinion in general the treatment that I and other GC2er's have recieved from non-GC2 forum goers has not been good and frankly we're tired of being treated like the red-headed orphan.

i.do.blog << visit my personal blog here

I see your point, Mumbles, and on that basis, I'd probably feel pretty much the same way and not wish to communicate with those persons again, either. However, I don't take life or myself too seriously these days and generally shrug it all off.  Life is too short to be upset or worried about such things, so nowadays I don't let them rock my boat and just move on to the next thing.

Another thing I am loathe to do these days is tar people of a similar ilk with the same brush... and while I would not lump all Galciv forum members into the same category (because everyone is different), I would like to think that those people wouldn't paint all Wcers, Joe Users, etc, with the same brush.  Every great communty can/will have an element of argumentative killjoy types who delight in getting a rise from taunting others... but these days I just pass such people by and find community members who are more amiable, pleasant to converse and share a joke with.

But thanks for asking the question and apparently taking the effort to bother to read a reply or two of mine.

Now the question is which of the four response types will be the predominate response to the above reply. If I were a betting man I would have to put my money on simply being ignored, but ridicule is probably a close second. Actually I can usually anticipate getting all four response types.

Another one of my favorites usually starts happening right about now when the post count starts getting close to 100. This usually occurs when it becomes apparent that the usual fare of ignore, dismiss, mis-state and ridicule has not had the desired effect of causing me to curl up in the fetal position and run crying from the thread.

This is when people start saying "why is it always about you". It's a good one which is why they save it for last. It lets everyone feel that I'm the one being the jackass and they've only responded with "righteous indignation". Whatever. Feel free to delude yourself.

As far as taking yourself too seriously, I agree and I don't. All this is, are words on a screen. Unlike many, my goal is not to "win friends and build a reputation".

It seems like this fight flares up every few months, skinning vs gaming.  One side calling the other silly, both thinking that they are more important than the other, and always crying for separate forums, or at least clear demarcation of where a thread or post originates from.  It's a battle I was even involved with nearly a year before I even started working here.

A few things to clear up for everyone involved...

1. Skinning is not more important than Gaming.  Gaming is not more important than Skinning.
   Both are parts of Stardock's business.  Both are audiences we've served for many years.  Both are passions of ours.  In terms of the business, they compliment each other quite well and there are benefits realized by both sides (DesktopX is the tech that powers the UI in GalCiv 2, Political Machine (2004 & 2008).  In terms of community, many people have started out on one side of the fence and over time discovered the other half of Stardock.  I myself came from the gaming side and later spent two years running WinCustomize.
   
   I'm honestly sick and tired of people on either side trying to claim that their passion/hobby is better, more important, more valid etc than the other.  Guess what?  It's not.  It doesn't matter if you're a gamer who sees no point in skinning, or a skinner who thinks gaming is a waste of time, don't try and insult the opposition and then get all in a huff because they attack back.
   
   Both gaming and customization are equally important parts.  All conjecture to what has the larger customer base, what deserves preference from Stardock, or what should be treated with a softer touch for whatever reason should be thrown out.  All are our customers, all are our community and believe it or not, we value you, your contributions (whatever they may be). 
   
2. Cross-posting Adds more than it Takes Away
   As ID said, cross-posting will never go away.  We have this fight with users every year or so, but it seems to come from users who want their site to be entirely self-contained and to hell with anyone who doesn't want to talk about ONLY a particular topic.  Cross-posting is actually one of the key features that keeps all of our sites so active.  Users who never neard of GalCiv may post to the Personal Computing forum via JoeUser asking a tech question, this may spark discussion from GalCiv2.com, WinCustomize, ImpulseDriven etc.
   
   You may not realize it, but many of the discussions everyone here participates in regularly are likely the result of the cross-posting forum setup.  It makes all of the forums more active and more interesting.
   
3. There will likely not be indicators on where a post came from
   The reason is simple; All sites are part of the same larger community.  The goal is to have it be seamless.  Icons or badges telling a user where the post came from creates an additional, arbitrary barrier.  Since in the cross-posted forums, there isn't anything site-specific about them, adding site-specific information divides more than it unites.  It would be like formally creating a caste system for users... "Ohh, you wear the mark of the Chameleon.  Your kind is not wanted here!"
   
   It's only a small set of users who know or care about the cross posting, and for most of them the only solution they'd be happy with is the elimination of the system.  The badges won't make those folks happy, and they'll just draw attention to the system from folks who never noticed or cared before.  It would create problems where there currently are none, and would in part defeat the purpose of the system.

You're all part of the same large community, like it or not.  Going after each other, biting at each others heels and trying to stir up trouble won't get us to bend to your personal view of how the sites should be run.  Learn to live with it and play nice.

No thanks needed... I read the thoughts, ideas and of opinions of others here, yours included, to broaden my own and to see how they tick.  This better enables me to communicate respectfully on a one a one to one basis, and thus it lessens the chance of what should be a mutual conversation devolving into something unpleasant and ugly.

Furthermore, while I may not share your interest in games, nor you with my passion for desktop customisation, I do agree with your views regarding respect/consideration for a given opinion... so obviously I do not like it when those who take delight in shooting others down in flames decide denigrate them publicly, such as in a forum.  It's gets even uglier when a mob mentality gets behind them... nobody profits from it, but they still do it regardless, like their popularity will soar if they're backing the 'supposed' winning team.

My (tongue in cheek) response to that would be: "Because I'm special... aren't you???  Hehe!  That's what I mean about not taking such things or myself too seriously.  If a bit of nonsense like that broke the ice to restore some respect and civility, fine, but if not, then that's where I'd part ways and move on.

Well there you go!  Despite having different recreational interests, we're not too dissimilar after all.  I do not come to the forums to win popularity contests or friends, but to share some of my thoughts, a bit of humour and maybe a little something to spruce up somebody's desktop.  If I contribute something to help brighten someone's day, that's enough for me... and if I get a thank you here and there, well those are very nice bonuses.

Also, because I have moved between states over the last 10 years or so, I've lost touch with many people I knew as friends or acquaintances, so now I would say that I have many more acquaintances than I have close personal friends, both online and in the real world.  However, as you do, I consider a few who I've met online to be friends, not because I came looking for them, but rather that those relationships mutually evolved that way over time.

Oh, and I have a policy about being ridiculed.  Rather than have someone heap it on me as a matter of choice, I decide to act the fool and bring it upon myself... cos it's better to volunteer on your own terms than get drafted into somebody elses. 

In any case we've had Jafo, Island Dog and now Zoomba all read the riot act and I think that's plenty enough for me for the moment.

Apologies to putradi for hijacking his blog, however I've heard that there's no such thing as bad publicity other than your own obituary so on that basis he probably should be thanking me.

I guess im the missin link then. Former #1 mechwarrior pilot in the world, MS Game Zone Team Owner, and a skinner/Former Litestep dev all wrapped up in one. (Currently mastering Asphalt4 Elite Racing on my IPhone, While trying to make a few Widgets)

silly me...  I guess I should hate myself then

*smacks him self around with a large trout*

Now that I think about it, that's absolutely correct. Without cross-posting we could never have these lively little chats.

I was done with this thread but i'll add a few more things.

Why is that 3 Stardockians after reading this entire thread can only focus on "Skinning VS Gaming"?

That was never the debate and was only made the debate by Jafo when he took one persons opinion and ran with it. Mumble said, and i'm going from memory here, that to him, skinning was vanity and he had nor saw any use of it. Thats an opinioin folks, if your all (those who have at least) going to get off your high horse over someone's opinion, i suggest never going outdoors and conversing with anyone ever again....It's life that people will see things differently than you, it does not make them wrong or you right. It's shocking that i needed to point that out........

Since when is an opinion an insult. I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion, or is it only when that opinion happens to be the status quo? I have no use for Myspace/Facebook/JU/Livejournal.....i see them as a waste of time and only for the tweens that can't bring themselves to get out into the big wide world. Are they a waste of time? Obviously not, all those sites are quite successful, it just happens to be my opinion, wrong or right it's how i see it.

The highlighted part is of importance here. Your damn right i come to GC2 to talk about only one particular topic. It is the official site and forums for GC2. Why would i go there to talk about the affect of X on Y. Or to listen to other people thoughts on Z. IT IS...WAS...A GAME SITE, OF COURSE I EXPECTED TO CHAT ABOUT A GAME THERE. The site is not galciv2andothertopicsfromtheworld.com....

I don't go to Myspace to sell the junk laying around the house. I don't go to wincustomize for the latest weather reports. I find it completley logical to go to a site and be there only for said sites purpose, in this case GC2.

Now this thread was civil and about the cross posting with neither GC2aholics or wincutomizers berating, biting or fighting about anything, untill Jafo over reacted to an opinion and now more and more Devs are following suit.

Now you guys have made it perfectly clear that the cross posring will if anything become more prominant instead of being dialled back, and that you guys believe it is better this way. Did you ask the users of those sites? I bet not, but since you guys own the sites you don't need to. Which is why many, many users are not coming back or at the very least not as much as they used to....

Saying.. * dude you suck* is an insult as well as a opinion..

opinions can be stated without the need to belittle other people or their past times