Different Skill/Item behavior based on usage

One thing I'd really like to see is things working differently based on how you choose to use them, rather than just working for one situation and then not working at al.


To make it as brief as I can, I basically mean this:

Say you have some skill. If you targeted a Demigod with it, it might do a large amount of direct damage.
Such a skill would be useless against creeps as it'd do far more damage than their health, and just be a waste.
Instead, say if it hits a demigod it just does large single target damage, but if you hit a creep it does much less damage, but it does AoE damage instead.

Another example would be a buff that if you target a friendly Demigod it boost their damage alot for a limited time, or gives them an aor fire damage attack, something like that. When targeted on creeps/troops i'd be an aoe effect buffing many of them to a smaller degree each for a limited time. A skill like that would be much less useful without such a condition. If it was just an AoE buff it could be fine on buffing creeps, but useless for Demigods. If it was a single target big buff, it'd suck on creeps since people would just quickly kill the buffed creep.

Same sort of idea with a spell that if you target allies it has one effect, enemies it has another. Such as for allies it buffs, friendlies it debufs.

Could go on and on.. It's something that'd add a lot of versatility to skills that normally wouldn't be as useful. A huge AoE blast that does lots of damage skill is clearly already useful and doesn't need such things. But I bet there are skills currently in the game that could be made better/more versatile this way. And it opens the door for thinking up new skills for Demigods being worked on..


Also, the same thing with buffs. I think it'd make sense that some aura's have different effects to Demigods that they do to troops/creeps. Like you might have an aura that is +15% damage. Well, that bonus might be low, or high for Demigods. Maybe it should remain that amount of creeps/troops, but to demigods it should be +25%, or +5%, depending on what ends up being most balanced and useful(depends how they are balanced to each other and such). I'd hope the aura's don't only effect creeps and troops. Even if the bonuses are smaller to Demigods, they'd be nice to have. Granted, it does make it harder to balnace peope choosing to stack a lot of aura's.. just means items without aura's probably would need to be better :P
Buffs that effect different units type differently as well.. Such as more HP to melee units while it gives more damage to ranged. Normally you wouldn't care about HP on your ranged units, but you would on your melee units. But what if you want to use a mixed army? +HP buffs would sort of force you into specializing with just using Melee units.

The same goes for Items. It'd be nice to see items that have one effect for Generals, but a different effect for Assassins.



And while I'm at it, I really hope to see Aura's that effect allies and friendlies alike, same with damaging spells.
Such as the best +damage aura in the game also effects enemies. So if enemies are in range of it, they'll do more damage. That is something i'd expect to see on the ranged demigod (regulas or whomever.) as it'd give more damage at range, but when people close in you're taking more punishment. It might be someting like 50% higher damage bonus than a +% damage aura that only effects allies, i'd imagine.
And the highest damage AoE skill, same thing.(though it shouldn't effect allies troopers and demigods for griefing reasons probably :/ Just effect your own troopers and the AI creeps.)
Same for an uber aoe heal.
They'd be considerably better than things that only effect enemies, or only allies, but they are more risky, more situational, that sort of thing.

Oh, and aura's that you turn on/off which drain mana while in use I hope are included besides the always-on one.



/edit  Crud.. that wasn't brief
3,132 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top
This sounds interesting. One of the thing that I could see making this not happen is how the item descriptions are. If they can give brief enough descriptions like:
Aura: Range 15
Demigods - Increase range 5%
Minions - Increase range 15%

or

Target: Demigod or Area(Minions)
Duration: 30 seconds
Demigod: Increase damage by 10%
Minions: Increase damage by 20%

then that should work for some items. But if everything is like:
"Shoots a bolt of lightning at an enemy for X damage."

it should still be able to be reworked into a 'better' format. It may or may not be better this way (rewriting it, that is); I'm not sure. I like the idea!

PS. Just to be annoying, I have to say that it's 'affect' =P
Reply #2 Top
This idea sounds pretty cool, and chirmaya has a good take on it to. I'm just wondering if that would make the skills to overpowered? Or just make them that versatile.
Reply #3 Top
Well of course it'd need to be in descriptions..
It's just another line.
Reply #4 Top
I don't think everything should have a different effect for everything else, then it would be akin to dota and if you didn't know exactly what every item is or does, people hated you/kicked you.
Instead only a few things should change to fit every situation, whereas others would be like
"HammerTime:
The Rook goes into a dancing frenzy, dropping his hammer and destroying enemy units with his feet. If a Demigod is within X distance, that Demigod must engage in a danceoff with the rook."
or
"Boobs:
Passive Aura: Queen of Thorns invigorates nearby units with her..err..beauty, while distracting foes.Increases friendly unit move and attack speed by 10%, decreases enemy demigod move and attack speed by 20% and enemy unit move and attack speed by 30%"

Note that the above skills only changed in a few situations unlike:

"Al'Karag'Axcyg'Nassar's Demolishing Quarterstaff of Incredible Nubslaying:
+30 base attack damage
large Splash damage against enemy units, this splash heals allies
+15 more damage against enemy demigods
Attacking allies while wielding Al'Karag'Axcyg'Nassar's Demolishing Quarterstaff of Incredible Nubslaying will heal them."
(I would have made it more specific and ridiculous but I got lazy.}
Reply #5 Top
It just needs to be not super confusing when it comes to a description that has multiple effects, like:

Bangle of Banging
Demigod (passive):
damage by 200
defense by 100
On hit (Demigod):
15% chance of knockback
25% chance of 250 extra damage
30% of stunning for 1 second
On hit (Minion):
50% chance of knockback
60% chance of 25 extra damage
10% of stunning for 5 seconds

I doubt that items will have all too many effects, so I don't think that it will really be a problem; it just adds more to the item description, which increased the amount of time that someone needs to read until they know everything that the item does.
Reply #6 Top
Not really because you wouldn't have it on that type of skill.

It shouldn't exist on everything like I said.

Just a few skills that otherwise wouldn't be as useful to make the more versatile.


I don't see why items that buff your damage would have different effects to different units.. That's not what I was saying at all.
I was only thinking for the Aura's that items have.
If an item gives +damage it shouldn't matter what you're hitting, that'd just confuse when you look at your Demigods damage output.

If you do different damage to Demigods than creeps that would be VERY confusing and not at all what I was suggesting.
--------

The whole idea is that a high DD skill would be pretty useless against creep that it overkills, but just useful against Demigods.
Well that would make it a worse skill in comparison to something that, say, buffed your attack speed, as such a buff makes your normal damage good vs. other demigods AND good vs. creeps.
So you make that skill do an AoE vs. creeps and troops so it's like two skills at once.

It doesn't make the skill any more powerful per se, it's just like having two skills in one slot.


And the Aura buffing/debuffing is simply because I figure there will be a big difference between +30% damage given to an Assassin and +30% damage given to a Generals troops. This would balance it out without making Aura's be troops/creeps only or something, I would think. But it's hard to say.
Reply #7 Top
But the advantage of those "nuke spells" are the high damage on a single target.

I don´t like your idea, sorry :)

For instance, if you´ve chosen a demigod with high damage spells (on a single targe), then you are one of the kind "demigod-killer" which means, you will focus enemy demigods with your spells.
Sure, your spell will be more than useless against a creepwave, but you will have mates with a good melee damage or AoE spells.
If your high damage spell (single target) will be split up into two spells (on demigods single target, on creeps AoE) the "diversity" will be reduced in some kind in my opinion.

See, I´m sure we will have demigods which are specialized on some style of play. Like the support heroes with heal, auras etc., the high damage heroes (sorry for calling them allways heroes and not demigods) and maybe the high hp heroes with not such high damage.

If there will be a demigod, with moderate damage and the passive ability that the damage is splashed over the nearby creeps and you will go there, use your highdamage spell against them (in AoE style), the splash damage of the first demigod will be pointless.

I hope you understand my point, I just woken up and my english is still terrible :>
Reply #8 Top
Yeah but that's exactly the same..

Typically skills that are so situationally are made to be extremely good in that situation.
Which, sort of makes sense, but then feels lame when that situation happens and it's used on you.
BAckstab in most games is a good example. It's made extremely powerful because in a lot of games it's so hard to pull off. So when it's used on you it feels lame.

But I'm not saying every single skill should be like this :/
0-2 per Demigod.

It's a lot of times a better way to balance things than make a very situational skill be overpowered in that rare situation, IMO.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be situational skills, but usually the best skills are the ones that are useful more often.
Reply #9 Top
Well, if your enemy has a spell which does 500 dmg and another enemy hero nearby has a stun for 2 secs, you won´t have to deliberate about going into battle with them alone.
It might be "overpowered" in the early game (I know, I´m too focused on DotA) but when your demigod reachs about 2000hp you will be able to stand against them.

In my opinion, if you change some skills like you said in your suggestion the game will becoming more easily, because a demigod specialized on hero kills well be good vs. creeps too. I don´t want a game in which you can go for you own but a game in which your team is the element for win.
Reply #10 Top
I think you're missing that you can still have specialist classes with having multi-use skills that aren't so situational. :/
Reply #11 Top
not sure if it this different behaviour allowing a skill to be either aoe or 1-targer would add something to gameplay, I mean you can hit a demigod + his minions with a aoe spell and if you really just want to hit 1 target, why not using another skill. would kinda take the decision away which skill to pick if the are allrounders. (I know I picked just one of your examples but I am lazy).

That said I am perfectly fine if skills change their nature when you increase their level, if there are levels. So for Example "Fireball" does 100 Damage to 1 Target at level 1; 200 Damage to 1 Target at level 2 and 175 Damage to an Area at level 3 - would be a real choice than rather than just a leveling up. (I also hope that we don't get to have every skill maxed at maximum level)

I am also fine if some skills can change there nature but this should consume mana/have a cooldown and takes time.

I do approve that we get skills which don't differentiate between friend and foe, something which we already discussed with Scathis in IRC long time ago and he said it is certainly in the real of possibilities but he also mentioned the risk of griefers. Wisely chosen skills however can reduce that problem (An aoe healing spray which heals friends and foes alike isn't really what Joe Griefer will enjoy very much)

Auras which aren't enabled all the time and consume mana are good as they demand a choice rather than just being a totally passive ability - there should be permanent ones as well ofc.

about skills which have one effect to enemies and another to friends, this remembers me of coil and holy light from warcraft which did heal/damage depending on if the target is an undead or not. It seems a bit illogical if a skill does different things just because the target is a friend, even in a fantasy setting and even with the gameplay>realism dogma. However if the units and Demigods belong to different "realms" or "elements" or whatever it could indeed be quite nice to have some skills doing different things dependend on the "realm" of the target

Reply #12 Top
The aoe would do less damage is why..
Reply #13 Top
its the very nature of aoe spells to do less damage than 1-target spells and having an all in one weapon doesn't sound right for me,
in case you meant my example, I like dilemmas and that would certainly be one
Reply #14 Top
I meant your example. You said "you can hit a demigod + his minions with a aoe spell".
I was saying that aoe would be less damage than the direct-damage. That's why not.