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Game Cheats Are Illegal?

Game Cheats Are Illegal?

In his summary ruling on Blizzard's case against World of Warcraft cheat-maker Michael Donnelly (released yesterday), District Court Judge David Campbell has stated that the act of using a bot in violation of a game's license or terms of use qualifies as a copyright violation. Huh?

Just to get it out of the way, I'm as much against cheats as the next guy. As a WoW player in particular, I'm glad to see Blizzard shut down the cheaters and cheat-makers. But this ruling doesn't make much sense to me; it seems like a case of the judge just trying to find a way to cover something which doesn't really cross any real existing laws. Worse, it sets some (arguably) nasty precedent, effectively making EULAs law (any violation is a violation of copyright), rather than simple contracts where the most you can lose is your right to use the software. [more]

Strangely, the judge actually dismissed Blizzard's claims that the cheats violated the DMCA. Given the amount of use the DMCA gets in such cases, you'd think that the ruling would have been the other way around, at least. In any case, it seems the case is now going to trial to decide the DMCA portion for certain.

What do you guys think? Should this ruling stand? Personally, I think that it shouldn't--stripping cheaters of their access to the game and perhaps making a civil claim against the cheat-makers for damaging the game for everyone else is justified, but making any EULA violations illegal, as Judge Campbell (inadvertently or otherwise) has done is going too far.

1,150,432 views 462 replies
Reply #376 Top

Not to bring this discussion back to the original case or anything, but has anyone besides me read the motion for injunction and MDY's response? Despite the ruling against MDY, they have continued supporting and selling Glider. Blizzard asked for a permanent injunction for MDY, donnelly himself, or anyone associated with the company to:

1 ) shut down the phone-home server than MDY uses for its DRM protection. Disabling the server would stop the secondary infringement nearly instantaneously, but MDY hasn't done it, and refuses to.

2 ) stop further development of Glider. Since the ruling, MDY has continued to update the program to match Blizzard's countermeasures.

3 ) prevent MDY from selling or transfering the source code to others so circumvent any court order to cease and desist.

4 ) assisting any third party from developing similar software.

MDY's response basically says:

A ) the ruling did not apply to anyone but the MDY corporation, not Donnelly personally.

B ) MDY's continued operation does not harm Blizzard enough to warrant an injunction before a final ruling.

C ) Blizzard delayed too long before asking for an injunction, so a few more months won't hurt them.

D ) WoW has clearly prospered in spite of Glider, so the effect of glider must be minimal.

E ) Glider may actually increase WoW revenues.

F ) Glider is not the only bot program available, but it is the only one being singled out for legal action.

G ) Blizzard knowingly allows people who have gotten accounts banned to start new ones.

H ) MDY has sufficient resources to cover any damages likely to be awarded if Blizzard wins.

I ) MDY needs the income from Glider to pursue this legal action, and any appeals which may result. Wait, what?

J ) MDY would be unlikely to recover its business, even if the injunction is lifted after a few months.

K ) MDY's employees would suffer hardships far more significant than Blizzard's losses by continued operation.

Even more, MDY asks the court to limit the scope of an injunction should one be issued to not include:

I ) further development of Glider, as further development doesn't infringe anything if they don't release it to their users.

II ) transfer of the source code to others, as doing so would not be in MDY's interest anyway.

III ) the sale of the underlying technology, as it could be used for other purposes.

IV ) assistance given to others to develop similar software.

Seeing as I've run out of numbering systems, I'm glad that summarizes the motion and response. Overall, I'd say MDY has the better case in terms of the injunction. Blizzard waited months to sue them, and nearly three years to ask for an injunction. That kinda shoots the immediate necessity of the injunction. That's what Blizzard gets for trying to handle the bots themselves, rather than suing the instant they found out. D'oh!

Anyone interested in reading the full text can find it here, as links #84 and #85.

http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/arizona/azdce/2:2006cv02555/322017/

Reply #377 Top

I buy a product, it may or may not have "license enclosed" written on the outside. This is indicative of jack fucking shit. To be preposterous, they could be giving away fishing licenses. To be reasonable, that license can say anything from "By using this software you agree to be bound, gagged, and raped by our company at our discretion" to "You agree not to reverse engineer this product"

Stardocks are the latter, EA's are beginning to resemble the former. A generic "license" warning is bullshit. It's no such thing. Beware of dog means beware of dog, you stay out of the fucking yard. What good would a notice that there was a sign inside the door do the mailman?
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So you ask the person at the store, call the company, or go to the company's website. What do you want, the entire box plastered with the EULA so you can't see the title of the game you're buying?

The only major complaint given by their users, a whopping 5% of them
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5% is quite a bit. Most people don't report problems.

could also point to them not having enough spawns of ridiculously rare creatures that people spend hours sitting around waiting for.
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. . . so complain about the drop rate, don't write or use a bot. In any case, WoW's drop rates aren't that bad.

Blizzard is making shit loads of money off WOW.
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Yeah, and they're spending loads of money too. You think their servers are cheap? You think Diablo III and Wrath of the Lich King were designed by volunteers? That money goes back into their products.

10% is a good investment. Why is it my duty to pay for Blizzard to add a few more bucks to their 1000% returns?
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It's the basic principle of economics - money is exchanged for services and goods. It's also a basic principle in most religions - "thou shalt not steal."

Whining about how big/small the loss is doesn't change the basic principle. A thief is a thief, be it a candy bar or a luxury automobile.

They have to buy new accounts, by nature of being a subscription based service, this is a non-issue.
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Yeah, apparently they have no troubles buying new accounts and using the bots again.

It's a harmless fuck with an insubstantial and correctable annoyance factor that has to pay money to get in, and is risking JAIL the second time around.
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Mutliply that by a few thousand and one "insubstantial and correctable annoyance" becomes a real problem.

Make a competing bot?
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I believe the point is to get people to play their game . . .

They honestly think 7 months is how long you should play a character to "finish" it?
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If you want a two day game, maybe you shouldn't be playing a MMORPG.

Yeah, the point is that you play it a long time.

50 bucks to buy a coaster you don't own so you can pay $15 a month to painstakingly level a character through intentionally shitty game play dozens of hours before getting to the better parts.
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If you don't like it, don't play it . . . sounds kinda simple to me.

If you want a MMORPG that's easy to get to max level, you can play Guild Wars. You don't need to play WoW. And it's not any more ethical or legal to use a bot because you hate the game.

I think all of this stupid talk about the government blah blah blah is really just because you hate the game, not because you have any sort of real legal or ethical point.

Reply #378 Top

MDY would be unlikely to recover its business, even if the injunction is lifted after a few months.
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Heh, I think that's kinda the point here . . .

Asking for an order to prevent release of the source code seems to be something new. Blizzard really seems to be worried about this bot.

Reply #379 Top

MDY would be unlikely to recover its business, even if the injunction is lifted after a few months.
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Heh, I think that's kinda the point here . . .
Asking for an order to prevent release of the source code seems to be something new. Blizzard really seems to be worried about this bot.
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That's part of the point, but MDY is correct in arguing that a temporary injunction that destroys their buisiness is overkill, considering how long the current situation has lasted.

As for the sorce code, remember that Glider is so much more effective than other bots due to the fact that they stole the source code for the Warden program to make it. No one else has that, and Blizzard doesn't want it getting out.

Reply #380 Top

Here's the thing - if you accept 4), then 5) follows inexorably if the buyer is a consumer. The CD is the original item being sold
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Not necessarily. You are buying a game, yes, but it is only an assumption that you are buying the cd inside the box. If there is a fair warning that you purchase a license and the cd is simply provided for you to get the a copy of the software, your assumption is useless.
Now you can argue what a "fair warning" is. But that decision has to be made by either the law makers or judges.
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I think you're assuming a lot more ambiguity in contract law than is actually there -
§ 2-103. Definitions and Index of Definitions."(k) "Goods" means all things that are movable at the time of identification to a contract for sale. The term includes future goods, specially manufactured goods, the unborn young of animals, growing crops, and other identified things attached to realty as described in Section 2-107. The term does not include information, the money in which the price is to be paid, investment securities under Article 8, the subject matter of foreign exchange transactions, or choses in action."
-and-
§ 2-501. Insurable Interest in Goods;  Manner of Identification of Goods."(1) The buyer obtains a special property and an insurable interest in goods by identification of existing goods as goods to which the contract refers even though the goods so identified are non-conforming and he has an option to return or reject them.  Such identification can be made at any time and in any manner explicitly agreed to by the parties.  In the absence of explicit agreement identification occurs

(a) when the contract is made if it is for the sale of goods already existing and identified;"

So, if someone hasn't told you explicitly that you're not buying the physical object you think you're buying, then yeah - that's what you're buying. The law is unambiguous on that point - not even the usual disclaimers for "between Merchants" or a consumer in that section, so it's still either 2A) or 2B) - the EULA isn't a sales contract inandof itself or anything weird.

Actually - if I'm reading the definition of 'goods' right - a standard sales contract *can't* sell you a 'license' in and of itself, because it can't sell information, only 'things movable at the time of identification'. But I won't swear to that.

The problem is that by attempting a legal solution to a technical problem
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Solving all technicel problems by a technical solutions is nearly impossible. Except not making PC games at all.

No security software is 100% secure as we can see.

You either have to do a legal solution to certain problems or stop selling games.
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Allow me to rephrase then - I have problem with *this* legal solution, that of attempting to bypass the legistated law by creating a binding EULA that can arbitrarily render any given action of the buyer a breach of contract, regardless of the legality of the action.

If the merchant want's to render the EULA binding, they have options available - for instance they can have, y'know, a signed contract at time of sale - I used to sell exactly that for Cell Phone and Satellite Providers when I was still woking through college. Seemed to work fine for them.

Or they could decide they don't need this that badly, and reduce the EULA to waivers, as is allowed under UCC 2.

They *could* even come up with a very limited rewrite of the UCC paragraphs on this that allowed specific limitations on third party programs that were designed to unbalance a game environment - similar items have happened before. The problem with something like UCITA was that is was a naked powergrab, and after people saw what it allowed (Basically exactly what I've been saying scares me about this) people stopped it in other states, but a more limited rewrite to fulfill a more limited need - no problem.

But this doesn't work for me, and I'm not sure why others seem so happy about allowing it - enforcement of an EULA that disallows Glider regardless of whether Glider is legal, means enforcement of EULA's that disallow *any* action inconveneient to the software manufacturer.

People have actually *agreed* with that interpretation, and still defended this interpretation as being a *good* thing. I'm not sure I can understand that.

Jonnan

Reply #381 Top

Jonnan - a bit of indirect personal experience, if I may. One of my friends from high school is a lawyer who specializes in debt collection and representing creditors in bankrupcy cases. You would be floored by the percentage of people who use "I signed it, but that doesn't mean I knew what it said" as a defense, and it almost never works. This holds true for utility bills, car loans, morgages, and damn near anything else. Clearly, even having someone hold consumers' hands through a contract, having them initial various paragraphs, etc. does not prevent consumers who either don't read what they sign or simply refuse to comprehend that they can actually be held to an agreement.

The same applies to EULAs. Consumers are given warning that such an agreement is required, with instructions on how to find the full text before purchase. If a consumer is unwilling to seek information they are told is relevant, there is no reason to believe the majority of them will read it even if they are forced to sign it before buying. The consumer protections are ineffective because they can't protect the consumer from himself - no merchant needs to intentionally deceive the consumer who is willing to do the dirty work for them.
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You keep pulling out these apples and oranges comparisons and throwing them out as being somehow relevant. Why?

Of *course* mortgages and such are enforcable. Maybe you've never done a mortgage or a bankruptcy or a loan, but my home mortgage had a PhD thesis worth of paper, a realtor to answer every question I had, two lawyers. Hell Willy, my *lease* before I bought my house was five pages with me initialling relevant paragraphs.

Yet you keep bringing out these as being somehow relevant to a sales contract where you bought something at a store.

For the distiction between merchant and consumer, to be truly an either/or definition, they would need one of two things. Either:

A ) both terms are defined in such a way as to prevent any person from falling into both catergories, and no person can fail to fall into one or the other class.

or

B ) one is defined in relation to the other. "A consumer is defined as any person who does not meet the definition of merchant as defined in...."

Failing either of those, the distinction is not definite. If UCC intended such a distinction, they sould have written it into the law explicitly.h
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Willy - Yes or No question to you.

Does the UCC offer definitions for "Consumer" and "Merchant"? Yes or No

Does it then state that there are specific requirements for a modification to a sales Contract that must be in place if the buyer is a "Consumer", but not if the buyer is a "Merchant"? Yes or No

If you answer yes to both of those questions, then the question about whether the definitions are clear or how they apply in a specific circumstance is an argument for a specific case. Personally, while I agree the definitions *could* be clearer, I don't think there is all that much in the way of grey area open for argument, and frankly, I think you're trying rather desperately to emphasize the minor theoretical ambiguities so you can simply ignore the fact that, in reference to a game, there really is absolutely no ambiguity about the fact that a game is bought "primarily for personal, family, or household purposes."

Guess what - the fact that you don't *like* the way the definitions are worded doesn't render them irrelevant. Moreover - go actually read the wording of UCC 2 where it distinguishes the two. Typically the main law is written with the merchant consumer interaction in mind, with the *exceptions* being stated as "Except as Between Merchants", so if those definitions were to be magically swept away so as to not annoy you, my argument against this interpretation of the law would actually be *stronger*.

Regardless, the definitions *are* there, UCC 2 defines definite differences in the creation of contracts based on where the two entities stand in reference to those definitions, and unless your argument is that they are annoying to you therefore meaningless, they make a difference.

From post #308 by Jonnan001

What do you want me to say - you are correct - you can find a bad decision in every district, but those bad decisions will, in the wrong run, harm everyone.
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Once you've used this argument, you can't honestly expect me to put much effort into finding precedents to prove you wrong - you just bypass them and move on. You've done it before and will certainly do it again.
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You have posted several cases. I did not bypass them and move on - I explained, point by point, *why* I thought they were not relevant.
Generally it was because the defendent seemed to obviously fall under the definition of "Merchant" - which, perhaps not coincidentally, seems to be about the time you decided that you really hated the definition of "Merchant" and "Consumer".
If you post a case that has a consumer, and I can post a link back to the definition of consumer and undermine the argument again, then sure, yeah, I'm, going to argue it's a bad decision. If you can post a case that involves a consumer, and I *can't* undermine the argument simply by posting a link to the UCC text (again), then it's just possible that you've got the case that supports your point of view.

But so far, you keep posting cases that even you haven't seemed to actually read, because the defendants are typically merchants. Don't blame me for that.

The problem is that by attempting a legal solution to a technical problem, imo at least, the damage allowing *this* kind of broad enforcement of an EULA is going to cause far more damage than it's worth, because in order for this to be a useful solution, you have to discard immense numbers of consumer protections that were placed *into* contract law originally because it was abused too often over the years.
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If I were to correct what you just said to accurately reflect the opinion you've repeatedly expressed, the preceding would read "the damage allowing *any* kind of enforcement of EULAs is going to cause more damage than it's worth..." You have held that EULAs are unenforcable in their entirety, not that this is an unacceptably broad enforcement of an otherwise allowable contract. Please be consistent.
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Good Lord - Make long detailed posts, they complain that your posts take forever to read. Try to make them concise, and they quote you with no context at all like a girlfriend that remembers a slight from three years ago and brings it up when she's ticked that you left the toilet seat up.

I'm sorry, you're being - the polite word is disingenous. While I will happily argue for more limited enforcement even between "Merchants", I believe I've been consistent is stating that my primary concern is that a consumer should not be required to have a lawyers skills in order to play a fricking game. That is not at all the opinion you claim I've repeatedly expressed, nor the fact that I posted, in the actual Questionairre post, the annotation that the UCC did specifically allow for waivers.

Given how much it bothers you that there are protections for consumers against legal chicanery, I would be more than happy to donate some funds for the wormhole that helps you migrate to some Ayn Randian paradise where you can live your life in contentment knowing that if you buy a pack of lifesavers with an EULA on the inside wrapper annotating that you've donated your kidneys, you can expect to wake up in a bath-tub sans kidneys. But First, I have a few forms for you to sign off on because, well, frankly, I don't think you are nearly as smart as you think you are, and I want dibs on your stuff afterward.

Not to bring this discussion back to the original case or anything, but has anyone besides me read the motion for injunction and MDY's response? Despite the ruling against MDY, they have continued supporting and selling Glider. Blizzard asked for a permanent injunction for MDY, donnelly himself, or anyone associated with the company to: .....
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Original Case? The first post was "In his summary ruling on Blizzard's case against World of Warcraft cheat-maker Michael Donnelly (released yesterday), District Court Judge David Campbell has stated that the act of using a bot in violation of a game's license or terms of use qualifies as a copyright violation. Huh?"

So, no, it's pretty much the Summary Judgement ignoring "Consumer" that I care about - the rest of the case is still in a state of flux.

Sure, I think MDY and Donnely is a bunch of pricks myself, but whether I'm right or wrong, the court has methods for enforcing it's orders, MDY has Lawyers for arguing it's side for injunctions, and Blizzard has lawyers with Word templates specifically for filing injunctions.

Unless there's something new that pertains to the original summary judgement, I'm not sure I care that much about the rest.

MDY would be unlikely to recover its business, even if the injunction is lifted after a few months.
End of quote


Heh, I think that's kinda the point here . . .

Asking for an order to prevent release of the source code seems to be something new. Blizzard really seems to be worried about this bot.
End of quote

That's part of the point, but MDY is correct in arguing that a temporary injunction that destroys their buisiness is overkill, considering how long the current situation has lasted.

As for the sorce code, remember that Glider is so much more effective than other bots due to the fact that they stole the source code for the Warden program to make it. No one else has that, and Blizzard doesn't want it getting out.
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They have my sympathies on that - the last thing they want is GLIDER 2.0, with a GPL license - {G}. But althought I've heard a number of people throw around accusations of their having stolen "Warden" everything the case actually says in the summary judgement seems to be that they reverse engineered it, which, being protected under the DMCA, seems to have been one of their wins. If they stole it, that would fall under trade secret law, not DMCA *or* copyright, and you can get your company raped right royally violating that, so if it's not mentioned in the lawsuit, I'm inclined to assume it never happened.

Jonnan

Reply #382 Top

The problem is that by attempting a legal solution to a technical problem
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. . . and the problem with the "technical problem" is that it's a virtually unsolvable problem. I've gone through the information theory I know of, and ultimately whichever program gets installed on the user's computer first will always have the upper hand.

If the bot is installed before WoW is installed, there's vitually no way to guaruntee that WoW can detect it's on the same computer as a bot. In addition, even if installed first, the strongest measures against bots would require rootkit-like low level access to the system. WoW would have to take over some of the OS's own functionality - which has proven to be a diasaster for DRM schemes that try to do the same thing.
End of quote

I will grant that it's a difficult issue. But this solution simply pushes that problem back another level. What if the customer had bought Glider first, and Glider had the exact same clause saying that running WoW was a violation of MDY's EULA.

I don't see any way to say that MDY is liable for contributory infringement because using it violated the WoW client's EULA without rendering WoW liable to MDY for the same contributory infringement if the places were reversed.

I'm not *happy* about the fact that Glider was causing this kind of problem to Blizzard - but it's a big enough problem when the fight is a technological arms race between two companies - Imagine letting it fall over into a legal arms race with your right to run the software you want on your computer on the line.

Shall we adjudge, individually, whether Microsoft can make GPL software illegal on their PC? Can they force you to not dual boot with Ubuntu? Can you afford to go to court to prove they can't? Is it going to make a difference that my copy of XP is on my first partition, Ubuntu is on my second? But gee, my Ubuntu partition is the default I boot to . . .

Legal battles of titans are best kept between large companies, directly facing each other in court, not dragging what *I* can do with my computer into it. This consumer protection, enforced properly, establishes a legal "no man's land" where, if it's not important enough for EA to risk losing a sale by making their customers sign a piece of paper with proper explanation of what they're giving up, it must not have been that important then.

I agree with what you said below - I have no qualms signing that piece of paper myself if I know for sure what rights I'm giving up *before* I walk out of the store - I have before, for other things, but if what I signed is going to be used on a legal battlefield between two other companies, I think I'm entitled do know that *before* I get my hand blown off picking up a mine disguised as a toy.

Willy has been quite explicit that he thinks that simple things like enforcing the (as I read it) simple requirements of requiring the merchant to present the EULA and both they and the consumer sign it is "what I would consider necessary for children and the handicapped, not for legally competent adults", and I get the impression that Bodyless and possibly yourself agree.
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I wouldn't mind signing the EULA at the store. I already have to sign for my credit card. However:

The consumer protections are ineffective because they can't protect the consumer from himself
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I'd have to agree with this. Ultimately, it's up to the consumer to know what he's getting himself into, and ultimately it's the consumer's fault for not reading the fine print. No matter how easy it is to read, no matter how big the print is, no matter how many times people are warned, there are always those who don't stop and think before they purchase.

In addition, there always seem to be those who think that this stuff is optional, or who believe that it's okay if they don't get caught and think they won't get caught. There's no shortage of people who just don't care and decide to do their own thing no matter what you put in front of them.
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That seems to me to be a fallacy, rather like saying seatbelt laws are useless because people will just drive more recklessly. Yet, statistics prove that seatbelt laws are effective in reducing injuries and fatalities, even taking into account that *some people* drive more recklessly.

I think it's the same here - sure, some people will still get themselves into trouble despite consumer protections, but that doesn't mean that having no consumer protection is the right answer.



Jonnan

Reply #383 Top

but MDY is correct in arguing that a temporary injunction that destroys their buisiness is overkill, considering how long the current situation has lasted.
End of quote

So far, the judge seems to be more concerned about whether they're breaking the law than about their financial well being.

. . . which is, after all, his job. He's a judge, not a financial consultant.

. . . and it's been almost an entire month since that motion was filed, so it would appear the judge is simply ignoring it. I think the jude is simply going to follow the time schedule that he has proposed.

Reply #384 Top
I think you're assuming a lot more ambiguity in contract law than is actually there -
End of quote


Maybe, but something just came up in my mind:

You dont need to buy the retail WoW to play it. You can download the entire Client for free from the WoW Homepage. And even buy a license there(completely seperated from the download).

No physical cd is required.

Now do you want to base this case on the users who

a) buyed the retail WoW and used the cd to install it
b) downloaded the client and buyed it over the hp
c) buyed the retail WoW but used the downloaded client since they used it to play the trial
d) got the cd or a copy of it from somewhere and buyed wow from the hp (unlikely but possible)

Or should it be simply ignored that a cd is included in the box?

Actually - if I'm reading the definition of 'goods' right - a standard sales contract *can't* sell you a 'license' in and of itself, because it can't sell information, only 'things movable at the time of identification'. But I won't swear to that.
End of quote


If you cant buy a license via a contract the sale of wow may not even fall under contract law at all.
Reply #385 Top

You have posted several cases. I did not bypass them and move on - I explained, point by point, *why* I thought they were not relevant.
Generally it was because the defendent seemed to obviously fall under the definition of "Merchant" - which, perhaps not coincidentally, seems to be about the time you decided that you really hated the definition of "Merchant" and "Consumer".
If you post a case that has a consumer, and I can post a link back to the definition of consumer and undermine the argument again, then sure, yeah, I'm, going to argue it's a bad decision. If you can post a case that involves a consumer, and I *can't* undermine the argument simply by posting a link to the UCC text (again), then it's just possible that you've got the case that supports your point of view.

But so far, you keep posting cases that even you haven't seemed to actually read, because the defendants are typically merchants. Don't blame me for that.
End of quote

If I could find even a single major case where one party was a consumer (or that you would accept as as consumer), this might matter. The whole point is that the license contract itself contains the remedies available in the case that a consumer breaches the contract - and in the one major case (Zeitenberg) where the guy actually WAS a consumer at the time of purchase, you simply said he was a merchant, so none of my (or the court's) reasoning following it mattered. Zeitenberg is the closest I've found to an actual consumer case, and you ignored it out of hand.

You've also repeatedly cited that every other district except 7-9 have ruled EULAs uninforcable out of hand, but not produced caselaw to support this assertion. Please do so, to give me a chance to address them. I think I have found cases from the 3rd and 6th districts that you would use to support this, but both have absolutely NO application to merchant-consumer sales. Both involved a company trying to enforce an EULA over an actual negotiated contract with different terms, and yet they come up on database searches as "landmark" cases defeating EULAs. I fail to see how that type of precedent speaks to a consumer software product WITHOUT such a specifically-negotiated contract.

They have my sympathies on that - the last thing they want is GLIDER 2.0, with a GPL license - {G}. But althought I've heard a number of people throw around accusations of their having stolen "Warden" everything the case actually says in the summary judgement seems to be that they reverse engineered it, which, being protected under the DMCA, seems to have been one of their wins. If they stole it, that would fall under trade secret law, not DMCA *or* copyright, and you can get your company raped right royally violating that, so if it's not mentioned in the lawsuit, I'm inclined to assume it never happened.
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From Blizzard's statement of fact in the case:

"At one point, after Blizzard developed a new method of detecting Glider, Donnelly sought and received help from Joseph Thaler who sold information about Blizzard’s new detection measures to MDY for $18,000."

The actual details of what this "information" was is part of the sealed testamony. Whatever it was, I believe we can safely assume it was information not available to WoW users, and thus could not be legally used as part of any reverse engineering. This bit was left out of the ruling because it simply doesn't matter for the purposes of this case if Glider is an illegal derivative work or not.

If the merchant want's to render the EULA binding, they have options available - for instance they can have, y'know, a signed contract at time of sale - I used to sell exactly that for Cell Phone and Satellite Providers when I was still woking through college. Seemed to work fine for them.
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If this ruling goes badly for Blizzard, I have no doubt you will soon have to sign at purchase, despite the negative effects this will have on both consumers and software makers. Worse, they might start selling boxes without CDs in them, just a serial number to download the game.

Reply #386 Top

So far, the judge seems to be more concerned about whether they're breaking the law than about their financial well being.

. . . which is, after all, his job. He's a judge, not a financial consultant.

. . . and it's been almost an entire month since that motion was filed, so it would appear the judge is simply ignoring it. I think the jude is simply going to follow the time schedule that he has proposed

End of quote

No, the financial impact on one or both parties is a necessary consideration in the injunction process. Under these circumstances, if the damage to MDY by the injunction is outrageously large compared to the corresponding damage to Blizzard caused by the lack of the injunction,  he should be finding in MDY's favor. At least until the matter is finally decided at trial and probably through the appeal process, MDY will be likely not be subject to an injunction.

Bodyless - those same considerations came up in the Zeitenberg case in 1996. That was part of the justification for upholding EULAs.

I just realized I failed to include a link to Zeitenberg in my earlier response, so here it is:

http://www.law.emory.edu/7circuit/june96/96-1139.html

Reply #387 Top

You have posted several cases. I did not bypass them and move on - I explained, point by point, *why* I thought they were not relevant.
Generally it was because the defendent seemed to obviously fall under the definition of "Merchant" - which, perhaps not coincidentally, seems to be about the time you decided that you really hated the definition of "Merchant" and "Consumer".
If you post a case that has a consumer, and I can post a link back to the definition of consumer and undermine the argument again, then sure, yeah, I'm, going to argue it's a bad decision. If you can post a case that involves a consumer, and I *can't* undermine the argument simply by posting a link to the UCC text (again), then it's just possible that you've got the case that supports your point of view.

But so far, you keep posting cases that even you haven't seemed to actually read, because the defendants are typically merchants. Don't blame me for that.
End of quote

If I could find even a single major case where one party was a consumer (or that you would accept as as consumer), this might matter. The whole point is that the license contract itself contains the remedies available in the case that a consumer breaches the contract - and in the one major case (Zeitenberg) where the guy actually WAS a consumer at the time of purchase, you simply said he was a merchant, so none of my (or the court's) reasoning following it mattered. Zeitenberg is the closest I've found to an actual consumer case, and you ignored it out of hand.
End of quote

"If I could find even a single major case where one party was a consumer (or that you would accept as as consumer), this might matter." - I would think that it would occur to you to consider the possibility that *this* might matter - that you have been trying for months now, but can't find a single 'major case' where the defendant didn't qualify as having special skills in that industry or was using it in business.

I have to be honest - if on my side I couldn't find a single quote in the UCC code that justified my opinion, I would begin to consider the possibility that my opinion might be wrong. It says worlds to me about this argument that your reaction to not being able to find any support for your opinion indicates that it must not matter.

You've also repeatedly cited that every other district except 7-9 have ruled EULAs uninforcable out of hand, but not produced caselaw to support this assertion. Please do so, to give me a chance to address them. I think I have found cases from the 3rd and 6th districts that you would use to support this, but both have absolutely NO application to merchant-consumer sales. Both involved a company trying to enforce an EULA over an actual negotiated contract with different terms, and yet they come up on database searches as "landmark" cases defeating EULAs. I fail to see how that type of precedent speaks to a consumer software product WITHOUT such a specifically-negotiated contract.
End of quote

I have seen them in various districts, but they aren't very recent - those decisions were *why* the software industry tried to get UCITA passed, they tended to get dismissed early on in the process and they go back to the 90's, so they're short decisions and old decisions. I will try and dig up some time this week and track them down.

They have my sympathies on that - the last thing they want is GLIDER 2.0, with a GPL license - {G}. But althought I've heard a number of people throw around accusations of their having stolen "Warden" everything the case actually says in the summary judgement seems to be that they reverse engineered it, which, being protected under the DMCA, seems to have been one of their wins. If they stole it, that would fall under trade secret law, not DMCA *or* copyright, and you can get your company raped right royally violating that, so if it's not mentioned in the lawsuit, I'm inclined to assume it never happened.
End of quote

From Blizzard's statement of fact in the case:

"At one point, after Blizzard developed a new method of detecting Glider, Donnelly sought and received help from Joseph Thaler who sold information about Blizzard’s new detection measures to MDY for $18,000."

The actual details of what this "information" was is part of the sealed testamony. Whatever it was, I believe we can safely assume it was information not available to WoW users, and thus could not be legally used as part of any reverse engineering. This bit was left out of the ruling because it simply doesn't matter for the purposes of this case if Glider is an illegal derivative work or not.
End of quote

God I wish you would provide links habitually, but I found it - looks to me like yeah, that *should* be a criminal act, and if this opinion was based on that, I would have more sympathy for it. But the Summary Judgement seems to me to indicate that Glider was assumed to have reverse-engineered it rather than done something to criminally acquire it, which means the summary judgement is still relying on the EULA being able to say you can't run a program that is legal.


If the merchant want's to render the EULA binding, they have options available - for instance they can have, y'know, a signed contract at time of sale - I used to sell exactly that for Cell Phone and Satellite Providers when I was still woking through college. Seemed to work fine for them.
End of quote

If this ruling goes badly for Blizzard, I have no doubt you will soon have to sign at purchase, despite the negative effects this will have on both consumers and software makers. Worse, they might start selling boxes without CDs in them, just a serial number to download the game.
End of quote


And hey - as long as sales-people know as much about software EULA's as I had to know about satellite network contracts, then that doesn't bother me any. *MY* suspicion is the exact opposite - that if this get reversed because of the consumer protection clauses, you will see software divide into two separate classes, those that honestly need this protection (and WoW may be one of them) and setup an EULA process the same way we sell Cell Phone Contracts and such, and those that decide they're not willing to give up sales for that kind of protection, reduce the EULA to a set of common, enforcable waivers printed on the box for the consumer to clearly see, and just stay within the regular UCC law.

Jonnan

Reply #388 Top

I think you're assuming a lot more ambiguity in contract law than is actually there -
End of quote



Maybe, but something just came up in my mind:

You dont need to buy the retail WoW to play it. You can download the entire Client for free from the WoW Homepage. And even buy a license there(completely seperated from the download).

No physical cd is required.

Now do you want to base this case on the users who

a) buyed the retail WoW and used the cd to install it
downloaded the client and buyed it over the hp
c) buyed the retail WoW but used the downloaded client since they used it to play the trial
d) got the cd or a copy of it from somewhere and buyed wow from the hp (unlikely but possible)

Or should it be simply ignored that a cd is included in the box?
End of quote

Honestly - hard to say, I could see courts going either way. I successfully fought a company that sold me an item over the web when they tried to say that I was bound by the disclaimer on their web page, even though I didn't have to actually accept it to buy the goods. But that was a physical good, and I could pull in the FTC on my side ("Interstate Transport" from Illinois to Indiana)

Given a simple acknowledgement of the EULA before downloading the software? Well, I would consider it insufficient, but I'm sure some courts would support it. Given a proper version of going over the EULA by paragraphs like you have to do with a lease or a cell contract? Even I would consider that sufficient, and it's not like the web couldn't do it.



Actually - if I'm reading the definition of 'goods' right - a standard sales contract *can't* sell you a 'license' in and of itself, because it can't sell information, only 'things movable at the time of identification'. But I won't swear to that.
End of quote


If you cant buy a license via a contract the sale of wow may not even fall under contract law at all.
End of quote


I was reading that wrong, the license is either a contract or a modification to a contract, i.e., it *refers* to a good, it's not a good in and of itself. To say you're 'selling' a license is to indulge in sloppy thinking, because the license itself is the terms of the sale, not the item sold. Unfortunately the terms have been used interchangeably often enough to encourage sloppy thinking and I wasn't thinking about it properly.

Jonnan

Reply #389 Top

Bodyless - those same considerations came up in the Zeitenberg case in 1996. That was part of the justification for upholding EULAs.
End of quote


Regarding Procd, Inc. v. Zeidenberg - Yes, it explicitly supports Willy's belief that the distinction between "Merchant" and "Consumer" is illusory, and uses that to make shrink-wrap agreements binding in the 7th district.

It's several pages long, and I'm not going to rebut it point by point, but you should read the case, and then read the law, and come to your own decision about whether I mischaracterize the case.

The first most interesting point is that it creates an interesting new right on the part of a company, and justifies the rest of the case in relationship to this new right. The new right is the right to control 'Arbitrage' - the ability to keep people that are getting a better deal on a product from making a profit by selling to those that can't get that kind of a deal, and pocketing some of the difference.

This is interesting for one simple reason. There is no law creating a right to control arbitrage. The court cites numerous *examples* of controlling arbitrage, and then generalizes from the concept that it can be done to the fact that a company has some inherent right to do it, and since you have to have a shrink-wrap agreement to enforce that right to do it, a shrink-wrap agreement *must* be enforcable.

Then the judge proceeds to discard the question of whether you're dealing with a Merchant or a Consumer:
"Anyone can walk into a retail store and buy a box. Customers do not wear tags saying "commercial user" or "consumer user." Anyway, even a commercial-user-detector at the door would not work, because a consumer could buy the software and resell to a commercial user. That arbitrage would break down the price discrimination and drive up the minimum price at which ProCD would sell to anyone". Now, if the law didn't have specific provision distinguishing "Consumer" and "Merchant", the judge would have some point, however the judges opinion deals with the specific definitions of consumer anf merchant by . . . ignoring the fact that they exist, and then treating everyone as a merchant.

You have to put that in that order, because if the judge ignored the distinction and then ignored the parts that define the two, the UCC by default treats everyone as a consumer and treats the exceptions with some variation of "Except as between Merchants", so then ANY EULA would be subject to the maximum protection of the relevant parties. By ignoring the definitions, then treating everyone as merchants, he reverses that and grabs everyone and puts them into the *least* protected class.

Which is exceedingly odd since the definition of merchant makes it fairly clear that that the buyer would qualify as a merchant - the buyer was capable of pulling this information out of a specialized database and reselling it. That's not a common skill, and as a merchant Zeidenberg would have been held to the EULA, as he should have been. He was copying and reselling the information - that's not "personal, family, or household purposes."

So, this decision *could* have simply noted that he qualified as a merchant and been done with it. Instead the court went to all sorts of effort to pretend there was no distinction.

The rest of the decision is to justify the formation of the contract.
"Zeidenberg does argue, and the district court held, that placing the package of software on the shelf is an "offer," which the customer "accepts" by paying the asking price and leaving the store with the goods. Peeters v. State, 154 Wis. 111, 142 N.W. 181 (1913). In Wisconsin, as elsewhere, a contract includes only the terms on which the parties have agreed. One cannot agree to hidden terms, the judge concluded. So far, so good-- but one of the terms to which Zeidenberg agreed by purchasing the software is that the transaction was subject to a license. Zeidenberg's position therefore must be that the printed terms on the outside of a box are the parties' contract--except for printed terms that refer to or incorporate other terms. But why would Wisconsin fetter the parties' choice in this way?"

The first question the court never answers is whether this is a separate contract or a UCC 2 modification of a contract, so strictly speaking, I think this fails because of equivocation - we don't know, for certain, whether when the court refers to this contract they are referring to a General Contract or a UCC 2 modification of a contract. From context, it would appear to be the latter, but it's not explicitly stated. However the entire "Consumer" versus "Commercial" dialogue gives us context, the court appears to be dealing in UCC 2 law, and many of the citations come from UCC 2 law. Fair Enough.

Well, the short answer for "why would Wisconsin fetter the parties' choice in this way?" is that Wisconson accepted the UCC 2 as written, which means that consumers are specifically exempted from these kind of terms without being made formally aware of them - even the contract on the outside of the box is something that requires formal acceptance for a consumer to be bound by - so it's reference to further, hidden terms never comes into play if the buyer is a consumer.

"Transactions in which the exchange of money precedes the communication of detailed terms are common. Consider the purchase of insurance. The buyer goes to an agent, who explains the essentials (amount of coverage, number of years) and remits the premium to the home office, which sends back a policy. On the district judge's understanding, the terms of the policy are irrelevant because the insured paid before receiving them. Yet the device of payment, often with a "binder" (so that the insurance takes effect immediately even though the home office reserves the right to withdraw coverage later), in advance of the policy, serves buyers' interests by accelerating effectiveness and reducing transactions costs. Or consider the purchase of an airline ticket. The traveler calls the carrier or an agent, is quoted a price, reserves a seat, pays, and gets a ticket, in that order. The ticket contains elaborate terms, which the traveler can reject by canceling the reservation. To use the ticket is to accept the terms, even terms that in retrospect are disadvantageous."

Which goes into
"Consumer goods work the same way. Someone who wants to buy a radio set visits a store, pays, and walks out with a box. Inside the box is a leaflet containing some terms, the most important of which usually is the warranty, read for the first time in the comfort of home."

The exact kind of apples and oranges comparison I've gotten on Willy about, comparing highly regulated industries with specific terms drawn out requiring you to initial various paragraphs to buying a radio at the store. I'm not sure what the district judges policy says, but I went through an entire HR session at with my employer when I was hired going over the terms of my health insurance plan. My House insurance went through the same thing - I spoke to a specialist and asked about anything I didn't understand (When I bought the house). My *Radio* on the other hand had a short pamphlet with a set of explanations of what was covered, and a set of 'Waivers' saying no further express or implied was valid unless determined by local law. I had the exact same set of rights if there was *no* pamphlet in the box, because they are set by the local consumer protection laws - the pamphlet is informational only.

So, no, it's incredibly sloppy thinking to posit that these are equivalent. They're simply not, on the face of them, even vaguely equivalent. They *are* UCC law, but where they impinge on UCC 2 then you're dealing with a merchant to consumer sale, with all the paperwork that implies, or a set of waivers - and quite often he's caparing that to things that don't even fall under UCC 2 - There are Nine UCC Articles, dealing with everything from buying popcorn (UCC 2) to investment instruments (UCC 8) - the laws aren't the same, the relationships between you and your broker are not the same as the relationship between you and the cashier at Wal-mart.

"ProCD proposed a contract that a buyer would accept by using the software after having an opportunity to read the license at leisure. This Zeidenberg did. He had no choice, because the software splashed the license on the screen and would not let him proceed without indicating acceptance. So although the district judge was right to say that a contract can be, and often is, formed simply by paying the price and walking out of the store, the UCC permits contracts to be formed in other ways."

And here is where the problem of Equivocation comes into play - because the assumption *here* is that the EULA is a separate contract. A minute ago it looked like a modification of the sales contract, but now it's a separate contract - in which case the question of questions 2B) and 3) come into play - what consideration did the buyer receive? Not the right to install - he already had that. By keeping him from exercisicing his legal right to use the program without accepting the contract, Pro CD Inc was in fact extorting his cooperation, and since he received no additional consideration in exchange for the rights he lost by signing it actually fails as a contract.

So, fundamentally, when it's convenient to the court to consider this a modification of the sale contract, the court used that. Then, when convenient to consider this EULA a separate contract, they used that. So what we get is a nifty new kind of contract that applies to anyone at time of sale, yet doesn't require consideration. Great deal if you can get it - and in District seven (Where I live, god help us all) you can.

But I still think it's a bad decision that went to a lot of extra effort to create precedents to be abused, and I think I can honestly say I've explained why.

Jonnan

Reply #390 Top

"If I could find even a single major case where one party was a consumer (or that you would accept as as consumer), this might matter." - I would think that it would occur to you to consider the possibility that *this* might matter - that you have been trying for months now, but can't find a single 'major case' where the defendant didn't qualify as having special skills in that industry or was using it in business.
End of quote

Or it could be that the license contracts themselves contain the common remedies for consumers breaking the license in consumer-level ways (e.g., the tens of thousands of accounts/game licenses Blizzard has terminated due to Glider). Nah, couldn't be that. That would just be silly.

In reality, consumers don't usually sue for a $50 game. Of course, companies don't generally sue someone over a $50 game, either. The only cases that go to court are the ones the standard remedies are insufficient to cover, and guess what? Those all involve someone trying to make money off of someone else's property.

And hey - as long as sales-people know as much about software EULA's as I had to know about satellite network contracts, then that doesn't bother me any. *MY* suspicion is the exact opposite - that if this get reversed because of the consumer protection clauses, you will see software divide into two separate classes, those that honestly need this protection (and WoW may be one of them) and setup an EULA process the same way we sell Cell Phone Contracts and such, and those that decide they're not willing to give up sales for that kind of protection, reduce the EULA to a set of common, enforcable waivers printed on the box for the consumer to clearly see, and just stay within the regular UCC law.
End of quote

This is entirely possible, but this would also mark the end of being able to walk into any Wal~Mart and buy a game. Needing to keep an certified expert on hand at all times (much like a pharmacy) would make selling games cost-prohibitive for most outlets. There's an inherent anti-competitive argument here. This would be a possibility, but I don't think it likely.

Honestly - hard to say, I could see courts going either way. I successfully fought a company that sold me an item over the web when they tried to say that I was bound by the disclaimer on their web page, even though I didn't have to actually accept it to buy the goods. But that was a physical good, and I could pull in the FTC on my side ("Interstate Transport" from Illinois to Indiana)

Given a simple acknowledgement of the EULA before downloading the software? Well, I would consider it insufficient, but I'm sure some courts would support it. Given a proper version of going over the EULA by paragraphs like you have to do with a lease or a cell contract? Even I would consider that sufficient, and it's not like the web couldn't do it.
End of quote

That type of thing I actually HAVE seen court decisions on, and you are correct. Simply having a link to an EULA or disclaimer is insufficient (in one case, it was hidden in gray text in a gray field, literally hidden from view). The consumer must be forced to click an "I Agree" button to get past a license or disclaimer for it to be enforcable. Note the cases I read were web-based, but the same principle should apply. I'm not sure which would be more likely to be read, paragraph by paragraph or a single document, but I suspect the percentage of people who would read either is appallingly low.

I was reading that wrong, the license is either a contract or a modification to a contract, i.e., it *refers* to a good, it's not a good in and of itself. To say you're 'selling' a license is to indulge in sloppy thinking, because the license itself is the terms of the sale, not the item sold. Unfortunately the terms have been used interchangeably often enough to encourage sloppy thinking and I wasn't thinking about it properly.
End of quote

The whole system is gramatically sloppy. Technically, there is nothing "sold" at all - no Good ever changes ownership. Technically, what you are paying for is the up-front fee they charge you for making the license agreement, and the whole affair is further complicated by one or more middlemen. "Selling" the license makes for faster typing, that's all.

I won't address your discussion of Zeitenberg in it's entirety, but will hit the funny points. Zeitenberg obviously considered himself a "consumer" when he purchased the consumer version of the software, rather than the full commercial version. At the time, his computer skills might have been higher than the general public, but he was by no means an expert the way I read the definition of merchant to mean. He was a college student majoring in computer science.

While *I* would probably not be able to repeat his incredible feat of programming (LOL), my little brother certainly could, as could my father (although to be fair, he IS an IT guy). The skills necessary are certainly not rare today, and weren't all that rare in 1996. Probably half the users of this site would qualify as "merchants" if we were to use this level of skill as the determining factor.

"ProCD proposed a contract that a buyer would accept by using the software after having an opportunity to read the license at leisure. This Zeidenberg did. He had no choice, because the software splashed the license on the screen and would not let him proceed without indicating acceptance. So although the district judge was right to say that a contract can be, and often is, formed simply by paying the price and walking out of the store, the UCC permits contracts to be formed in other ways."

And here is where the problem of Equivocation comes into play - because the assumption *here* is that the EULA is a separate contract. A minute ago it looked like a modification of the sales contract, but now it's a separate contract - in which case the question of questions 2B) and 3) come into play - what consideration did the buyer receive? Not the right to install - he already had that. By keeping him from exercisicing his legal right to use the program without accepting the contract, Pro CD Inc was in fact extorting his cooperation, and since he received no additional consideration in exchange for the rights he lost by signing it actually fails as a contract.
End of quote

I think you are deliberately misreading this. The ruling says a (sales) contract can be formed in a way different from the most elementary form of cash for a box. This simply says a contract does not necessarily require the two sides' considerations be exchanged at the same time.

And to add fuel to this fire, I submit this:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/16/apples-lawsuit-against-psystar-examined/

Perhaps you DO have to worry about the EULA on the operating system. Personally I think this opens Apple up to anti-trust action, but for sure Psystar's going to get taken to the cleaners for copyright infringement.

Reply #391 Top

"If I could find even a single major case where one party was a consumer (or that you would accept as as consumer), this might matter." - I would think that it would occur to you to consider the possibility that *this* might matter - that you have been trying for months now, but can't find a single 'major case' where the defendant didn't qualify as having special skills in that industry or was using it in business.
End of quote


Or it could be that the license contracts themselves contain the common remedies for consumers breaking the license in consumer-level ways (e.g., the tens of thousands of accounts/game licenses Blizzard has terminated due to Glider). Nah, couldn't be that. That would just be silly.

In reality, consumers don't usually sue for a $50 game. Of course, companies don't generally sue someone over a $50 game, either. The only cases that go to court are the ones the standard remedies are insufficient to cover, and guess what? Those all involve someone trying to make money off of someone else's property.
End of quote

Sure, that's it - all software companies just never bothered enforcing their EULA rights, just like no music company has ever sued an end user for copyright infringement. Companies are all sweet and wonderful about things like this.

Sure Willy - it's certainly got nothing to do with their lawyers telling them that they're on shaky ground regarding consumers.

And hey - as long as sales-people know as much about software EULA's as I had to know about satellite network contracts, then that doesn't bother me any. *MY* suspicion is the exact opposite - that if this get reversed because of the consumer protection clauses, you will see software divide into two separate classes, those that honestly need this protection (and WoW may be one of them) and setup an EULA process the same way we sell Cell Phone Contracts and such, and those that decide they're not willing to give up sales for that kind of protection, reduce the EULA to a set of common, enforcable waivers printed on the box for the consumer to clearly see, and just stay within the regular UCC law.
End of quote


This is entirely possible, but this would also mark the end of being able to walk into any Wal~Mart and buy a game. Needing to keep an certified expert on hand at all times (much like a pharmacy) would make selling games cost-prohibitive for most outlets. There's an inherent anti-competitive argument here. This would be a possibility, but I don't think it likely.
End of quote

Then they have need to decide if they *really* need that protection. If they do - then they go to the trouble to do it right, like everyone else has to. If not, then they realize that the extra protection isn't worth the lost sales - like everyone else does.

Life is like that.

Honestly - hard to say, I could see courts going either way. I successfully fought a company that sold me an item over the web when they tried to say that I was bound by the disclaimer on their web page, even though I didn't have to actually accept it to buy the goods. But that was a physical good, and I could pull in the FTC on my side ("Interstate Transport" from Illinois to Indiana)

Given a simple acknowledgement of the EULA before downloading the software? Well, I would consider it insufficient, but I'm sure some courts would support it. Given a proper version of going over the EULA by paragraphs like you have to do with a lease or a cell contract? Even I would consider that sufficient, and it's not like the web couldn't do it.
End of quote


That type of thing I actually HAVE seen court decisions on, and you are correct. Simply having a link to an EULA or disclaimer is insufficient (in one case, it was hidden in gray text in a gray field, literally hidden from view). The consumer must be forced to click an "I Agree" button to get past a license or disclaimer for it to be enforcable. Note the cases I read were web-based, but the same principle should apply. I'm not sure which would be more likely to be read, paragraph by paragraph or a single document, but I suspect the percentage of people who would read either is appallingly low.
End of quote

That's a situation for courts and the UCC committee to explore in depth - as UCC currently stands, the enforcabilty is iffy and I can understand why the jurisdictions are split on it, so I'd like to see the commitee clarify what contitutes good faith information  on the EULA - the extreme version would be having a rep on a chat client to answer questions, the mildest simply having to acknowledge the EULA, but it *does* need to be clarified.

If there is a genuine need for a specific kind of protection, and it's generic enough to be applicable across all software, then the UCC committee needs to be advised of it and a specific, limited clarification that both the software industry and people like the EFF can agree on needs to be adopted, rather than having a thousand licenses for a hundred companies.

Frankly - I really don't see the need, but I'd rather come up with an honest compromise that addresses specific concerns than to allow this ridiculous attempt to trap people into contracts to keep floating along as is.

I was reading that wrong, the license is either a contract or a modification to a contract, i.e., it *refers* to a good, it's not a good in and of itself. To say you're 'selling' a license is to indulge in sloppy thinking, because the license itself is the terms of the sale, not the item sold. Unfortunately the terms have been used interchangeably often enough to encourage sloppy thinking and I wasn't thinking about it properly.
End of quote


The whole system is gramatically sloppy. Technically, there is nothing "sold" at all - no Good ever changes ownership. Technically, what you are paying for is the up-front fee they charge you for making the license agreement, and the whole affair is further complicated by one or more middlemen. "Selling" the license makes for faster typing, that's all.
End of quote

Not really, or not any more than most law. Just declares that what is sold is a negotiable Title to a Copy of the Program and the "Owner of a copy" provision under copyright handles that properly - the rest of it is method of distrubution and the internet is a valid method for moving that copy to the owner, so long as you don't complicate it with additional EULA's.

I won't address your discussion of Zeitenberg in it's entirety, but will hit the funny points. Zeitenberg obviously considered himself a "consumer" when he purchased the consumer version of the software, rather than the full commercial version. At the time, his computer skills might have been higher than the general public, but he was by no means an expert the way I read the definition of merchant to mean. He was a college student majoring in computer science.

While *I* would probably not be able to repeat his incredible feat of programming (LOL), my little brother certainly could, as could my father (although to be fair, he IS an IT guy). The skills necessary are certainly not rare today, and weren't all that rare in 1996. Probably half the users of this site would qualify as "merchants" if we were to use this level of skill as the determining factor.
End of quote

You keep trying to play the consumer clause out as if it is some really ambiguous definition. Although I see some grey area where two courts mmight disagree in a specific case, there's just not that much play involved in the definition.

Yes or no: Is selling a database you acquired from another company a use that counts as being "primarily for personal, family, or household purposes."

Yes or No: Does culling information from that database and repackaging it for resale require "knowledge or skill peculiar to the practices or goods involved in the transaction"

You complain on the one hand that to not hold consumers responsible for knowing the full permutations of an EULA when buying a game is to treat them as handicapped, then turn around and argue repeatedly that something as simple as *this* pair of easily understood definitions is somehow *way* too vague.

Pick a position - is contract law so simple any adult should be held to it or way too complex for your average IT professional?

"ProCD proposed a contract that a buyer would accept by using the software after having an opportunity to read the license at leisure. This Zeidenberg did. He had no choice, because the software splashed the license on the screen and would not let him proceed without indicating acceptance. So although the district judge was right to say that a contract can be, and often is, formed simply by paying the price and walking out of the store, the UCC permits contracts to be formed in other ways."

And here is where the problem of Equivocation comes into play - because the assumption *here* is that the EULA is a separate contract. A minute ago it looked like a modification of the sales contract, but now it's a separate contract - in which case the question of questions 2B) and 3) come into play - what consideration did the buyer receive? Not the right to install - he already had that. By keeping him from exercisicing his legal right to use the program without accepting the contract, Pro CD Inc was in fact extorting his cooperation, and since he received no additional consideration in exchange for the rights he lost by signing it actually fails as a contract.
End of quote


I think you are deliberately misreading this. The ruling says a (sales) contract can be formed in a way different from the most elementary form of cash for a box. This simply says a contract does not necessarily require the two sides' considerations be exchanged at the same time.
End of quote

Oh goody - ypu know, I just never get tired of reposting links:
[link="http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-501"]§ 2-501. Insurable Interest in Goods;  Manner of Identification of Goods.[/links]
"(1) The buyer obtains a special property and an insurable interest in goods by identification of existing goods as goods to which the contract refers even though the goods so identified are non-conforming and he has an option to return or reject them.  Such identification can be made at any time and in any manner explicitly agreed to by the parties.  In the absence of explicit agreement identification occurs

(a) when the contract is made if it is for the sale of goods already existing and identified;"

I bought a box. It had a CD on it. In abscense of explicit agreement to the contrary, when I bought the box with the CD in it, I actually bought
1) A box and
2) the CD it contained.

Even for a merchant to merchant sale, the obvious existence of
1) A box with
2) a CD in it

means I bought a box and the contents thereof, unless explicitly informed otherwise.

It is worth noting that yes - I know  the PrCD versus Zeindeberg district judge ignored this. He ignored all *sorts* of stuff.

And to add fuel to this fire, I submit this:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/16/apples-lawsuit-against-psystar-examined/

Perhaps you DO have to worry about the EULA on the operating system. Personally I think this opens Apple up to anti-trust action, but for sure Psystar's going to get taken to the cleaners for copyright infringement.
End of quote


Eh - we'll see - like I said, looks like a corporate battle. As long as Apple doesn't try and say Psystar is liable because they have mutual customers, I don't care that much.

Jonnan

Reply #392 Top
Given a simple acknowledgement of the EULA before downloading the software? Well, I would consider it insufficient, but I'm sure some courts would support it. Given a proper version of going over the EULA by paragraphs like you have to do with a lease or a cell contract? Even I would consider that sufficient, and it's not like the web couldn't do it.
End of quote


In case of WoW, you dont sign the eula when downloading the client. You do it when buying an account. All bills the player has to pay for wow is on a per account basis, not per cd or per client software. Anything else would not make any sense with a subscription based game. (you could have multiple accounts but only one client ect..)

The cd inside the box is nothing worth beyond the cents for the physical cd itself.
If the way subscription based games contradicts with laws for retail selling, those either may not be sold retail or may not contain a cd, forcing every consumer to download it from the internet. If you like that option more.
Reply #393 Top

You keep trying to play the consumer clause out as if it is some really ambiguous definition. Although I see some grey area where two courts mmight disagree in a specific case, there's just not that much play involved in the definition.

Yes or no: Is selling a database you acquired from another company a use that counts as being "primarily for personal, family, or household purposes."

Yes or No: Does culling information from that database and repackaging it for resale require "knowledge or skill peculiar to the practices or goods involved in the transaction"
End of quote

§ 2-103. Definitions and Index of Definitions (1) (c) "Consumer" means an individual who buys or contracts to buy goods that, at the time of contracting, are intended by the individual to be used primarily for personal, family, or household purposes.

1 ) No, but we have no conclusive proof that his intent was to sell it when he acquired it. The consumer ruling depends on his intent when he bought it, not on his final actions. Depending who you place the burden of proof on, either Zeitenberg had to "prove" he intended the database for personal use to claim consumer status, or ProCD had to "prove" he intended it for commercial use to claim he was a merchant. Any time someone is required to prove intent of anything, simple definitions fly out the window.

2 ) This can easily be answered both ways, but I believe no, this does not make him a merchant.  How does one define exactly what knowledge is required to be a merchant? If simply knowing how to do something doesn't make one a merchant, what does? Is there some degree of knowledge of the actual buisiness practices required?

If one answers yes (as you clearly do), this sets the bar for being a merchant so absurdly low that consumers are forced to limbo under it to remain consumers. Oh no, I can change the alternator on my car, I'm officially a "merchant" mechanic! I might further qualify as a "merchant" in the following fields: carpentry, plumbing, drywall, small appliance repair, lawn care, hotel operation, agriculture research, medival armor, etc, etc, etc. Needless to say, both of us would have demonstrated enough knowledge (even if our opinions are contradictory) to qualify as merchants in terms of software licensing.

Clearly the yes option would lead to most adults (hell, even children) being considered merchants in a multitude of fields, so I have to say no, this degree of knowledge did not make Zeitenberg a "merchant", at least not for the first purchase. He certainly WAS a merchant for the second and third, but he did not qualify as one for the first.

And yes, Jonnan, the Apple complaint accuses Psystar of having "induced, caused or materially contributed to the infinging conduct of purchasers." In part, they are being sued for profitting from others infringing the copyright by operating outside the license agreement.

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/Apple-Psystar-complaint.pdf

Reply #394 Top
So you ask the person at the store, call the company, or go to the company's website. What do you want, the entire box plastered with the EULA so you can't see the title of the game you're buying?
End of quote


Not my problem. If the software companies want to write themselves exemptions to the laws, they have to do it legally.

Bans on reverse engineering a product for your own personal amusement are not necessary to protect their intellectual property.

Termination clauses so they can take my game away are not necessary to protect their intellectual property.

Waiver of consumer liability and lemon law protections are not necessary to protect their intellectual property.

You are arguing a fictitious point. It doesn't exist. They DO NOT NEED EULA's. The entertainment industry makes billions every year off media just as easily copied. The only thing an EULA does is restrict the rights of honest people. Anyone that will do something to violate copyright is already breaking the law and isn't going to give a shit about the illegal contract they're breeching at the same time.

5% is quite a bit. Most people don't report problems.

. . . so complain about the drop rate, don't write or use a bot. In any case, WoW's drop rates aren't that bad.
End of quote


Context you twat. The negative effect that less than 5% of the users are complaining about is that the drop rates are too low. Cause and effect. The cause is that bots are being sent in to kill certain creatures and spend inordinate time doing so. The effect is that various spawns become impossible to find. They're simply targeting the cause instead of the effect.

The cold is incurable. The cold is a nuisance. How do we treat the cold?

Adjusting your drop rates to change with the load requires minimal intelligence. It's a simple thing to do if you can belt out a game like WOW in 3 years. Bots are a nuisance, an incurable nuisance. You treat the symptoms. Perhaps, if they'd tried treating the symptoms instead of trying to cure the common cold, they'd be ahead of the curve.

Yeah, and they're spending loads of money too. You think their servers are cheap? You think Diablo III and Wrath of the Lich King were designed by volunteers? That money goes back into their products.
End of quote


Considering I gave their yearly profit, and not their revenue, I fail to see why you're even mentioning this. Sorry, but restricting my rights in an attempt to increase your profit margin from 1000% to 1001% just does not get you my sympathy vote. The guestimate on the development costs for WOW are around $40 million. They make $600 million a year in profit. Profit, not revenue. The math isn't difficult, even if it cost half again what people have guessed, they're making out like bandits. If they sold a necessity instead of a luxury, they'd have been dismantled by congress for unfair business practices, price gouging, and who knows what other bullshit charges.

It's the basic principle of economics - money is exchanged for services and goods. It's also a basic principle in most religions - "thou shalt not steal."

Whining about how big/small the loss is doesn't change the basic principle. A thief is a thief, be it a candy bar or a luxury automobile.
End of quote


You state the concept, yet can't grasp it. Blizzard is allowed to steal from us because their losses can be greater than ours. Blizzard is just protecting themselves and aren't actually thieves. When we exchange our money for goods, Blizzard keeps them.

Your logic is hilarious. Catastrophic in nature and horrifying to imagine, but still morbidly hilarious.

Yeah, apparently they have no troubles buying new accounts and using the bots again.
End of quote


This is my problem why? Blizzard's own incompetency in managing their account system means I should have my rights taken away from me?

Mutliply that by a few thousand and one "insubstantial and correctable annoyance" becomes a real problem.
End of quote


Except it's not a real problem. It's a supposed problem. It has already been explained that their attempt to neutralize bots is pissing money down the drain, and that their losses are unsubstantiated despite any wishful thinking on their part. This is much like the general piracy argument. A million people downloaded it! we lost a million sales!!! No consideration of reality, no studying the dynamics behind the numbers. Blizzard is banning customers and spending millions trying to prevent it in the first place, instead of writing a comparatively simple fix to creature spawns that takes into account the rate they are being killed at and replenishes them accordingly.

Despite your cherry picked quoting, you even left the kicker in and still ignored it. COMMITTING FRAUD COMES WITH POSSIBLE JAIL TIME!

Do I need to use a bigger font too?

I believe the point is to get people to play their game . . .
End of quote


Then why are they banning bots? I'd never even consider playing WOW for that very reason. I've done enough grinding, I'm not putting up with that shit anymore. For all we know, if bots were legal and compensated for, they'd have 20 million users instead of 10.

If you want a two day game, maybe you shouldn't be playing a MMORPG.

Yeah, the point is that you play it a long time.
End of quote


You can't have it both ways. If the point is to get people to play their game, they should be happy to expand their user base to those not interested in playing them without a bot to handle the grind.

If you don't like it, don't play it . . . sounds kinda simple to me.

If you want a MMORPG that's easy to get to max level, you can play Guild Wars. You don't need to play WoW. And it's not any more ethical or legal to use a bot because you hate the game.

I think all of this stupid talk about the government blah blah blah is really just because you hate the game, not because you have any sort of real legal or ethical point.
End of quote


Really? The drawbacks of being honest and giving full disclosure I guess. Maybe, I should get on here and pretend I wasn't a devoted fanboy that will forgive Blizzard anything while bashing someone that admits to not liking MMORPG's and Blizzard in general.

So... do your narrow, unsubstantiated, and factually inaccurate theories also cover my bashing of the DRM in Spore, EA's termination clauses in single player games, and the general view that EULA's are illegal in all consumer software sold for the last few decades? I must hate Blizzard and awful lot for it to transfer to things that predate them.

I don't like it, I don't play it. It really is that simple. What's not simple is your reasoning. Ethical concerns in using a bot against a server in a game where your play time isn't otherwise restricted? You're not even cheating against another person, and it's just a fucking video game.

The ethical concerns are all on the side of the asshole companies screwing their customers over because they have a sense of entitlement that vastly outstrips their legal right. EA releasing knowingly defective software, and then not fixing it, is an ethical concern. EA hiding clauses in a contract you can't read until you already own the product that excuse them from any and all liability of any form is an ethical concern.

Grow a pair and challenge your own malformed ideas. Meanwhile, stop taking me out of context because you don't have any arguments beyond "Nurrr, bots are bad!"
Reply #395 Top

You keep trying to play the consumer clause out as if it is some really ambiguous definition. Although I see some grey area where two courts mmight disagree in a specific case, there's just not that much play involved in the definition.

Yes or no: Is selling a database you acquired from another company a use that counts as being "primarily for personal, family, or household purposes."

Yes or No: Does culling information from that database and repackaging it for resale require "knowledge or skill peculiar to the practices or goods involved in the transaction"
End of quote


§ 2-103. Definitions and Index of Definitions (1) (c) "Consumer" means an individual who buys or contracts to buy goods that, at the time of contracting, are intended by the individual to be used primarily for personal, family, or household purposes.

1 ) No, but we have no conclusive proof that his intent was to sell it when he acquired it. The consumer ruling depends on his intent when he bought it, not on his final actions. Depending who you place the burden of proof on, either Zeitenberg had to "prove" he intended the database for personal use to claim consumer status, or ProCD had to "prove" he intended it for commercial use to claim he was a merchant. Any time someone is required to prove intent of anything, simple definitions fly out the window.
End of quote

Not sure what you're looking for here - If the court had not thrown the definitions out the window and decided to ignore the actual written law, then you're right, then when remanded back to the lower court ProCD would have had to prove he was acting as a merchant and Zeindenberg in turn would have to defend his default status as a consumer. My suspicion is that the way it was used would have been sufficient to establish this - the data Zeidenberg copied from the database was at least somewhat time sensitive, so although I am merely guessing that it was a matter of weeks rather than years between purchase and reverse-engineering the database to cull the data, it's an educated guess.

Unfortunately, the way the district court worded the decision foreclosed the line of inquiry - once the district court established that being a consumer was *no* protection despite the plain text of the UCC, the original court lost any right to even adjudge that fact. I don't think it's an unfair assumption that, had Zeidenberg and/or his lawyer thought they could have *won* the question of being a consumer versus merchant, they would have appealed this decision, but either it didn't occur to them to force that adjudication or they judged the chances of winning as being so slim as to be not worth throwing good money after bad.

2 ) This can easily be answered both ways, but I believe no, this does not make him a merchant. How does one define exactly what knowledge is required to be a merchant? If simply knowing how to do something doesn't make one a merchant, what does? Is there some degree of knowledge of the actual buisiness practices required?

If one answers yes (as you clearly do), this sets the bar for being a merchant so absurdly low that consumers are forced to limbo under it to remain consumers. Oh no, I can change the alternator on my car, I'm officially a "merchant" mechanic! I might further qualify as a "merchant" in the following fields: carpentry, plumbing, drywall, small appliance repair, lawn care, hotel operation, agriculture research, medival armor, etc, etc, etc. Needless to say, both of us would have demonstrated enough knowledge (even if our opinions are contradictory) to qualify as merchants in terms of software licensing.

Clearly the yes option would lead to most adults (hell, even children) being considered merchants in a multitude of fields, so I have to say no, this degree of knowledge did not make Zeitenberg a "merchant", at least not for the first purchase. He certainly WAS a merchant for the second and third, but he did not qualify as one for the first.
End of quote

I redid the plumbing for my house (A joy I could have done without - 1890's farmhouse). I did a competent job of it, installed two new bathubs, redid two bathrooms, cut out old sewage lines, moved the laundry room to the second floor. I did, if I may say so, a heckuva job and I'm happy with it.

No more makes me a real plumber than Mario and Luigi. I *also* ran portions of those lines two or three times, had to fix leaks, came within a hair of completely screwing up the 2nd floor toilet in a way that would have forced me to replace a ridiculous amount of pipe, and realized after the fact that the way I had run part of the sewer pipe from the 2nd floor to the first means that there is no way for a man my size to get through the crawlspace and fix the second floor piping if I have a problem with it.

And everytime there was a legal question about how things had to be, I had to look it up. I got fairly good at looking it up, but I had to look it up.

Being able to run pipe, does not make me a professional Plumber. Professionals are those that can do things so well that . . . people will pay them money. Professionals know the regulations for their jobs. Professionals keep books.

Zeidenberg was *selling* this database. Not giving it away, not loaning it out to his neighbor, not trading it for pizza. There was currency exchanged.

Quit trying to create some artificial confusion where none exists.

And yes, Jonnan, the Apple complaint accuses Psystar of having "induced, caused or materially contributed to the infinging conduct of purchasers." In part, they are being sued for profitting from others infringing the copyright by operating outside the license agreement.

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/Apple-Psystar-complaint.pdf
End of quote


Uh - so? Nobody here has said that it was okay to copy copyrighted stuff without any legal right to do so.
A) From the description I see, Psystar was distributing the code themselves. This isn't a situation where they're being accused of 'contributory infringement' based on the fact that something they did that was perfectly legal in and of itself interacted with some EULA from a third party. They broke the law, in a fairly obvious manner or so it seems to me.

B.) They *are* a merchant, again, pretty obviously. They don't have the protections against EULA's that a consumer has.

Reply #396 Top

Zeidenberg was *selling* this database. Not giving it away, not loaning it out to his neighbor, not trading it for pizza. There was currency exchanged.
End of quote

And that is entirely irrelevant. Whatever he may have done after getting the database, at the time he got it he was a consumer - unless you think a person's actions can retroactively strip them of consumer rights? That's a stance even *I* have issues with. Using a copy of Quicken doesn't make you an accountant. Neither does charging $10 to put someone else's numbers in your copy to save them the cost of getting their own. Even if it's hundreds of other people, you're still not an accountant.

And for your plumbing, good for you. I've never tackled anything that big. Your description comes awfully close to my experience with some contractors, though. Being a merchant implies competence, it doesn't guarrantee it.

And yes, Jonnan, the Apple complaint accuses Psystar of having "induced, caused or materially contributed to the infinging conduct of purchasers." In part, they are being sued for profitting from others infringing the copyright by operating outside the license agreement.

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/Apple-Psystar-complaint.pdf


Uh - so? Nobody here has said that it was okay to copy copyrighted stuff without any legal right to do so.
A) From the description I see, Psystar was distributing the code themselves. This isn't a situation where they're being accused of 'contributory infringement' based on the fact that something they did that was perfectly legal in and of itself interacted with some EULA from a third party. They broke the law, in a fairly obvious manner or so it seems to me.

B.) They *are* a merchant, again, pretty obviously. They don't have the protections against EULA's that a consumer has.
End of quote

Of course Psystar broke the law, but point is that Apple is trying to hold them accountable for consumers using OS X on their computers in violation of the EULA. Not just for Psystar making and selling illegal copies, but consumers *using* the copies. Contributary copyright violations can only occur when someone is allowing *others* to infringe, thus this can only stick if the jury decides consumers are violating copyright by simply *using* these unauthorized copies. I would think that to be highly relevant to this discussion.

On a side note, how frightening is that? The outcome of a case like this can depend on 12 people who haven't the slightest clue what the law actually is, and how well the two sides can confuse them as to what is actually relevant. Having sat on a couple juries, I highly advise anyone who KNOWS they are in the right to opt out of a jury trial if at all possible. Even judges will tell you there is no predicting what a jury will come up with. There is good reason District-level decisions are not allowed to make precidents. Any written decision that can be cited as precident is at the Circuit level at least.

Reply #397 Top

Not my problem. If the software companies want to write themselves exemptions to the laws, they have to do it legally.
End of quote

Well, if you think Blizzard is acting illegally, you have every right to haul them off to court.

The effect is that various spawns become impossible to find. They're simply targeting the cause instead of the effect.
End of quote

Which makes sense - get rid of the cause, and you don't have to worry about the effect.

The cold is incurable. The cold is a nuisance. How do we treat the cold?
End of quote

We do what we can to give our immune system the best chance of fighting the disease. We get plenty of rest, drink plenty of fluids, etc. We avoid things like stress that could hurt our immune system's effectivenes. Oh, I'm sorry, did you want me to say take that stuff that makes you feel better? Well, that would treat the symptoms, not the cold . . .

You're trying to make the argument that they shouldn't be trying to stop the bots. Problem is, you're not doing a very good job at it.

Adjusting your drop rates to change with the load requires minimal intelligence.
End of quote

Perhaps, but it doesn't make it more fair to the humans who can't compete with bots, and it only fixes one small problem. It doesn't address the core issue.

Bots are a nuisance, an incurable nuisance.
End of quote

Cancer is generally an incurable disease, but if you only treat the symptoms and don't attempt remove or destroy the cancerous cells on a regular basis, your patient is going to die quickly. Cancer patients have a much higher survival rate today because we do in fact try to remove and destroy the cancer cells. We know we can't ultimately win the war, but we can win battles and make life much easier for the patient.

Perhaps, if they'd tried treating the symptoms instead of trying to cure the common cold, they'd be ahead of the curve.
End of quote

Perhaps not. There are now vaccines available for some common strains, and having a vaccine would prevent that strain from affecting you. You wouldn't need to mess with the symptoms at all for that strain, because you simply wouldn't get sick in the first place.

In any case, the only reason why we can get away with only treating the symptoms is because we already have a deadly and devastating weapon against the common cold: The body's immune system. If our body wasn't so good at killing the common cold, it would be as bad as the bubonic plague was in Europe.


Then why are they banning bots? I'd never even consider playing WOW for that very reason. I've done enough grinding, I'm not putting up with that shit anymore. For all we know, if bots were legal and compensated for, they'd have 20 million users instead of 10.
End of quote

Yeah, "for all we know." That's not a very convincing statement. If you aren't even confident in your own hypothesis, why should I believe you?

Sorry, but restricting my rights in an attempt to increase your profit margin from 1000% to 1001% just does not get you my sympathy vote.
End of quote

I really do not care where you claim to be stealing it from, and do not expect me to give you any sympathy. After all, if you do not give any sympathy, why should you receive it?

Blizzard is allowed to steal from us
End of quote

If you believe they are stealing from you, go ahead and press charges.

When we exchange our money for goods, Blizzard keeps them.
End of quote

Really? Did the cops come into your house and take your game away from you?

Despite your cherry picked quoting, you even left the kicker in and still ignored it. COMMITTING FRAUD COMES WITH POSSIBLE JAIL TIME!

Do I need to use a bigger font too?
End of quote

Nope. I read just fine. You just failed to address my own point, which is that it's not one person - it's thousands. That's a lot of lawsuits, a lot of money, a lot of lawyers, and a lot of time. Why spend so many resources fighting lots of people when you can fight one person?

Except it's not a real problem. It's a supposed problem.
End of quote

You keep repeating that, as if repeating it will somehow make it true or make me believe it.

You can't have it both ways. If the point is to get people to play their game, they should be happy to expand their user base to those not interested in playing them without a bot to handle the grind.
End of quote

I don't think WoW is being unfair at all with their current levelling. In fact, it's far better than many other games I've played like Silkroad and Runescape. As far as I can tell, it took no longer to get to 55 than to get to 20. No, it's not Guild Wars, but it's not Silkroad either. It's very balanced. I do not think the grind is as horrible as you claim it is, and I think it appeals to a lot of people.

. . . and just because you don't like the product does not mean you have justification for violating the EULA. As I have said before, you can always buy a competitive product like Guild Wars or simply stop playing altogether.

So... do your narrow, unsubstantiated, and factually inaccurate theories also cover my bashing of the DRM in Spore, EA's termination clauses in single player games, and the general view that EULA's are illegal in all consumer software sold for the last few decades?
End of quote

If you think EULAs in general are illegal, go fight it in court. If you think DRM is unethical, write a letter to your congressman. Go talk to the Electronic Frontier Foundation, they help people all the time with this kind of stuff. Whining to me certainly won't fix what you think is wrong with this court case.

Reply #398 Top
There should be an announcement if this thread ever comes to some kind of a conclusion.
Reply #399 Top

There should be an announcement if this thread ever comes to some kind of a conclusion.
End of quote

That's not very likely to happen. Jonnan almost certainly won't change his position, even if the court rules EULAs enforcable for consumers. I probably won't change my opinion unless they strike down the entire concept, and I don't see that as very likely. Either way, it will be years before we get Circuit-level decisions to debate.

Reply #400 Top
Ahah, conclusion? Does that include the eventual boredom kill that will end the posting when we get tired of people that can't read?

Crackhead! I don't play WOW, never played WOW, never will play WOW, and was responding to your own asstard hypothetical's in the first place. Obviously, I'm not cheating, using bots, or stealing WOW. So, stop calling me a thief or I'll sue you for libel and get a ruling as equally preposterous as the one Blizzard got that puts you in the poor house. Seriously, it's getting really fucking boring stating that I haven't done this or that over and over, page after page.

Perhaps not. There are now vaccines available for some common strains, and having a vaccine would prevent that strain from affecting you. You wouldn't need to mess with the symptoms at all for that strain, because you simply wouldn't get sick in the first place.

In any case, the only reason why we can get away with only treating the symptoms is because we already have a deadly and devastating weapon against the common cold: The body's immune system. If our body wasn't so good at killing the common cold, it would be as bad as the bubonic plague was in Europe.
End of quote


Excellent analogy. Billions have been spent to vaccinate against something that causes minor aches and pains and is better served by exercise and proper nourishment. The second part is even better, our body is so good at killing the cold because it wipes the intruding virus out on an individual basis. Now, go try to solve the common cold by eradicating it from the face of the earth, see how far you get.

Also, cancer is fatal, shittard. It's obviously not just a nuisance.

Nope. I read just fine. You just failed to address my own point, which is that it's not one person - it's thousands. That's a lot of lawsuits, a lot of money, a lot of lawyers, and a lot of time. Why spend so many resources fighting lots of people when you can fight one person?
End of quote


Broken window theory. Read it. This is hardly a unique issue. Minor crime is ignored constantly in favor of major crime, all crime is higher as a result. Cities that settle frivolous lawsuits because it's cheaper end up buried in frivolous lawsuits. People that don't maintain their property have it trashed at the first sign of abandonment. Rules that aren't enforced become ignored.

Do you really think bot use would be so prevalent in WOW if people went to jail for joining under false pretenses? Forget jail if that seems too lofty a goal, how about a fine the first time, breech of contract for violating the terms of service. You do grasp that the TOS covers bots right? That the TOS, unlike the EULA, is actually legal?

Regardless, you're still confusing wishful thinking with reality.

Yeah, "for all we know." That's not a very convincing statement. If you aren't even confident in your own hypothesis, why should I believe you?
End of quote


Oh, so I should make outrageous claims with no foundation as Blizzard did? Ok... If these bots weren't being unfairly targeted, WOW would appeal to a much larger user base. Fact. Why is it fact? Because people pay money for one that works. Just think if they were free like they would be without the Blizzard enforced monopoly that left only one bot maker standing, and the people using them weren't being banned! There could be twice as many people playing wow, maybe ten times.

Blizzard gives numbers, ignores reality, and pretends they live in a vacuum with no other factors. You take that at face value, ignore reality yourself, and use the ambiguity of the system you wont admit to against the counter argument. Bravo, real intellectual.

If you believe they are stealing from you, go ahead and press charges.
End of quote


It must smell really bad up there, can you breath alright?

Really? Did the cops come into your house and take your game away from you?
End of quote


I'd suggest you invest in some anal extraction tools, at the least ventilation.

How many times now have I stated that I don't own WOW and wont buy a game with such things in place to actually give me standing to take them to small claims court later? Would you intentionally buy a product just to see if the company would act on the protections they wrote themselves and defraud you later? I give money to people I want to support, not people I want to stomp into a greasy spot. Hell, doing so is probably the grounds they'd need to get the case dismissed.

You keep repeating that, as if repeating it will somehow make it true or make me believe it.
End of quote


Maybe because it is? Gravity is still a theory, but you blindly follow their Swiss cheese logic? If I kick you in the nuts hard enough to crush your balls, it will hurt. Now how much does it hurt? Blizzard's statements go that far. Why would I kick you in the balls to start with? Maybe you're a giant walking dick and I couldn't kick you anywhere else. Maybe you kicked me first. Maybe I kicked you in the balls because you have a fetish and want me too.

You can't study a complex system and determine the causes that lead to your end results by listing the number of banned bot users and people that don't like them. Blizzard has never even attempted to study the problem. They set up no test servers where bot use was allowed. They never tried punishing bot users. They never tried correcting for the effects of bot users. They know just as little as I do, the only difference is they lie about it and state fictitious losses that may or may not exist.

I don't think WoW is being unfair at all with their current levelling. In fact, it's far better than many other games I've played like Silkroad and Runescape. As far as I can tell, it took no longer to get to 55 than to get to 20. No, it's not Guild Wars, but it's not Silkroad either. It's very balanced. I do not think the grind is as horrible as you claim it is, and I think it appeals to a lot of people.
End of quote


You think. Accepting that as plausible, so what? I think their leveling system sucks. I think Runescape is a horrific nightmare designed to torture small children and kill puppies. Your opinion on how fun or not fun the unmodified game is has no bearing. Either you're a customer, or you're not. You are, I'm not. I could be with bots.

Blizzard is a business, the more they sell, the more money they make. If they want to make more money, they need to appeal to a broader audience. They already pulled in several million more users than the other guys by not having it be as slow as EQ was, by decreasing the grind requirements. They also lost quite a few people that think it's too simple and fast, that like the slower pacing of other games. Bots mean you can think one thing and still like the game, and I can think another and still like the game, assuming it's at all possible.



. . . and just because you don't like the product does not mean you have justification for violating the EULA. As I have said before, you can always buy a competitive product like Guild Wars or simply stop playing altogether.
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Lets pretend this is relevant, and it's not.

I buy a game. It sucks. I modify the game until it interests me without regards to the limitations on modification given in the EULA. Explain how that comes out being a bad thing in a world not inhabited by leprechauns and fairies. Where the fuck do you get off telling someone they can't modify their own copy? This ruling doesn't apply to people cheating with bots on MMO's. This ruling means if I rewrite the executable to say "FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE!" on startup, I no longer have the right to use the game and am violating copyrights every time I use it.

Did you even read it?

If you think EULAs in general are illegal, go fight it in court. If you think DRM is unethical, write a letter to your congressman. Go talk to the Electronic Frontier Foundation, they help people all the time with this kind of stuff. Whining to me certainly won't fix what you think is wrong with this court case.
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You seem to not grasp the concept of standing. You can't fight an EULA in court. I can walk up to you in the middle of the street, and say you own me 50 dollars every time you take a piss. You can't take me to court for it. I actually have to try to collect on it before you have standing. Until then, wish in one hand, shit in the other. As to the other, less effective means, I've never stated that I've taken no action. You merely assume I have not. Filing protests has already gotten a few DRM schemes shot down, notably, Sony's rootkit fiasco. It would be nice if it takes down SecuROM and EULA's written to legalize fraud, but so far it doesn't seem to be working.

Probably because most of the country has mush for brains and isn't even paying attention, and the rest are so fucked in the head that they agree with the practices out of some sense of necessity.