Sodaiho Sodaiho

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

staging a messiahship

With palms together,

 

There is an interesting article in the N Y Times today about a stone tablet found amid the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Apparently it suggests that the notion of a suffering messiah who would rise in three days was a common belief in the century prior to the Christian Jesus.

 

The article suggests:

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

 

Hmmm. The death and resurrection myth prior to Jesus' birth?  It would seem this adds to the notion advance some decades ago by a Jewish scholar suggesting this whole Jesus script was a scheme to get Jesus recognized as the Messiah, that Jesus was aware of the things that needd to happen before they happened in order to meet the criteria.

 

And later:

 

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.

“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said. “This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”

 

Strange.

Link

Be well

 

 

 

 

922,973 views 969 replies
Reply #101 Top

In alot of my studies I come across excerpts from the Talmud. I'm not an expert on the Talmud but I understand the Talmud as being two? The Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud is considerably younger than that of the Jerusalem and its traditions far more deeply tinged with superstition and error of every kind according to Alfred Edersheim. For historical purposes the Jerusalem Talmud is of much greater value and authority than that of the Eastern Schools.

 

Dear KFC, yes there are two versions, so to speak of the Talmud. Most Jews today see the Babylonian version as the most valid because it was in Babylonia that most of the best Jewish scholars resided.

 

What I find interesting is that even in strictly Rabbinic documents, the premundane, if not the external existence of the Messiah appears as matter of common belief. Such is the view expressed in the Targum on Isa 9:6 and Micah 5:2. The Midrash on Pov 8:9 expressly mentions the Messiah among the seven things created before the world (Throne of Glory, Messiah the King, the Torah, Israel, the Temple, repentace and Gehenna.) In the Talmud (Jer. Ber. 2.4 p. 5a)it is not only implied, that the Messiah may already be among the living, but a strange story is related, according to which He had actually been born n the royal palace at Bethlehem, bore the name Menachem (comforter), was discovered by one R. Judan thru a peculiar device, but had been carried away by a storm. Also the Babylonian Talmud represents Him as sitting at the gate of Imperial Rome.

There is to be no question that Jews of old (as well as the modern Orthodox) hold the Messiah is a real possibility.  There are scores of legends as to a hidden Messiah and legends as to why he has not come out of hiding.  But understand, the Jewish notion of a Messiah is not a God-like person, not super human in any respect. The Jewish objection to Jesus as the Messiah is founded upon two discreet things.  First, as we noted together earlier, the prophecies were not fulfilled, there was no ushering of a new era where lion and lamb resided together, ect., and secondly the claim that Jesus was an incarnation of God himself.  Something Jews find terribly offensive.

So the princile that the later Delierer would be like the first' was carried into every detail. As the first Deliverer brought down the Manna, so the Messiah (Ps 72;16); as the first Deliverer had made a spring of water to rise, so would the second (according to the last clause of Joel 3:18 (Midr. on Eccles 1:9, ed. Warsh. vol. 4 p.80b) So when we read Matthew's account of the Messiah (written to the Jews) it's very clear that the Messiah (Jesus) was exactly who the Prophets and Writings pointed to. He fulfilled many of the prophecies concerning Himself with the rest to come when he comes again.

Yes.  And as far as within Christianity, I have no problem with this interpretation. Still, outside of Christianity, we are still left with the problem of completely unfilfilled prophacy and the stepping way from monotheism that God splitting into two or three poses.  Chistians should, as I said in a recent blog, believe in their Jesus.  I support that with all my heart.  I equally support that Jews have a right and an obligation to continue their faith along its own guidelines.

 

Be well and thank you for your thoughtful comments.  

Reply #102 Top
I have never said you are wrong to be a Catholic,


True. I'll give you that. But in attacking Christianity, you're not so subtle as you pretend...the very posting of this article is promoting heresy against Christ, and the Resurrection.

So from this I'm to take that it's fair game for Jews to bash, put down, propagandize and otherwise attack Christian doctrines, yet you cry "anti-Semitism" when I defend the true faith. Go figure! Even so, I love ya all anyway. Sincerely, I do.
Reply #103 Top

I just read through all of the article and comments, I find it both interesting and informative.

I just have one small thing to add. If you are not Jewish you are doomed to die and go directly to hell to burn for eternity for worshiping a false G-D and idolatry.

That is all.

Reply #104 Top
I just read through all of the article and comments, I find it both interesting and informative.
I just have one small thing to add. If you are not Jewish you are doomed to die and go directly to hell to burn for eternity for worshiping a false G-D and idolatry.
That is all.


This is interesting coming from a racist jew, a religion that I heard had no conception of hell. I must have had a bad source.

I like Leuk. I had him pegged as a nut because there are so many people like Moderateman, but now I think I know who is truly the "moderateman" here.
Reply #105 Top

Quoting SlyDrivel, reply 105
I just read through all of the article and comments, I find it both interesting and informative.I just have one small thing to add. If you are not Jewish you are doomed to die and go directly to hell to burn for eternity for worshiping a false G-D and idolatry.That is all.This is interesting coming from a racist jew, a religion that I heard had no conception of hell. I must have had a bad source.I like Leuk. I had him pegged as a nut because there are so many people like Moderateman, but now I think I know who is truly the "moderateman" here.

Obviously you have not a lick of anything resembling a sense of humor, or is this just a response because I blacklisted your silly ass from my blog? you sad pathetic piece of belly lint.

Reply #106 Top

Quoting SlyDrivel, reply 105
I just read through all of the article and comments, I find it both interesting and informative.I just have one small thing to add. If you are not Jewish you are doomed to die and go directly to hell to burn for eternity for worshiping a false G-D and idolatry.That is all.This is interesting coming from a racist jew, a religion that I heard had no conception of hell. I must have had a bad source.I like Leuk. I had him pegged as a nut because there are so many people like Moderateman, but now I think I know who is truly the "moderateman" here.

Obviously this is in response to me just blacklisting your sad pathetic silly little ass from my blog just a few moments ago, you sad little thing you. You first seem fixated on little whip am I now to have the honor of having you follow me around like a trained puppy?

Reply #107 Top

True. I'll give you that. But in attacking Christianity, you're not so subtle as you pretend...the very posting of this article is promoting heresy against Christ, and the Resurrection. So from this I'm to take that it's fair game for Jews to bash, put down, propagandize and otherwise attack Christian doctrines, yet you cry "anti-Semitism" when I defend the true faith. Go figure! Even so, I love ya all anyway. Sincerely, I do.

Dear Lula,  I can understand your point of view here.  From a believing Christian's perspective, those who cast doubt on the doctrines of Christianity could appear to be attacking it.  I don't agree with this point of view, obviously.  I think to question is a good thing. (A bit of history here.  Once upon a time I searched all over the place for a spiritual home, even Catholicism.  I even took catechism classes with an Irish priest for a few months.  We just could not come to terms.  I would question; he would turn flaming red mad.)

The point of this article was to cause discussion around the belief that Jesus was the Messiah.  to show that there are alternative theories as to what his behavior at the time was about, and suggest as the article does, that the tablet in question should stir debate among Christianity. As a non-Christian, it is hardly blasphemy to claim Jesus was following a script in order to be acclaimed the messiah.  Messiahship had nothing to do with divinity anyway. 

The fact of the matter is that Jews rarely attack Christians. What we tend to do is question. Its a far more common occurance going in the other direction, as your comments have made very clear.

Are you an anti-semite?  I don't know.  I do think that your comments about Jewish clergy and holy books borders on it. I also think that from your point of view anyone questioning the tenents of your faith must hate it. 

Questioning is almost always about understanding.  Questions do take things apart.  But the intent is not to destroy, but rather to get to know. 

I'll give you this.  I'll admit to making fun in my own mind of anyone who might seriously believes God became a man or that his birth was "immaculate."  The times when I respond out loud or in writing in such a way are usually the times I am being accosted by Christians acting, I'm sure, in good faith, but none-the-less asking me to leave my faith and become an apostate or deriding me for my faith's practices or my faith itself. 

Both of us have trouble accepting the other's point of view, don't you think?

 

Reply #108 Top
Obviously this is in response to me just blacklisting your sad pathetic silly little ass from my blog just a few moments ago, you sad little thing you. You first seem fixated on little whip am I now to have the honor of having you follow me around like a trained puppy?


nope. if you'll look, i'd been posting on this one long before you "black"listed me for calling a racist on your forum a racist. I think you defended her by saying "she just calls it how she sees it", refering to when she said the black people all hate her and that she lives "in da hood". Well, I was just calling it how I saw it. And I will not apologize for pointing out that someone is intolerant of me because of how I look.

thank you for calling me a sad pathetic silly little ass though. charming. See, at least i never said anything untrue.
Reply #110 Top
Hello. I am new here and came looking for Sohaido. A friend suggested that he could explain more of this idea called "zen". David explained a bit of it to me, and I found it quite interesting, but this conversation appears to be about Jesus. Although it's quite interesting to read, I am still looking for the other. Can anyone help me to find this conversation about zen?
Reply #113 Top
The fact of the matter is that Jews rarely attack Christians.


Knock, knock, there's been a war against Christian's rights and Christianity in general going on for some time now.

Can you say Michael Newdow, an atheist Jew...He's been attacking all things Christian in for some time?

How about those Jews who relentlessly attacked Mel Gibson for making a movie about the Passion of Christ?

Jews play a big part in Hollywood and they've put out quite a few Christian bashing films for over the past decades.

Abe Foxman of the ADL tried to have the saying of Grace before meals banned at the US Naval Academy.

Reply #114 Top

Knock, knock, there's been a war against Christian's rights and Christianity in general going on for some time now. Can you say Michael Newdow, an atheist Jew...He's been attacking all things Christian in for some time? How about those Jews who relentlessly attacked Mel Gibson for making a movie about the Passion of Christ? Jews play a big part in Hollywood and they've put out quite a few Christian bashing films for over the past decades. Abe Foxman of the ADL tried to have the saying of Grace before meals banned at the US Naval Academy.

 

There is no "war on Christianity."  I think you've been watching too much Fox News. 

I would agree that someone leading grace at a governement institution should be prohibited. Its not againsat Christianity, but rather against government sponsored religion.  If people wish to pray at the US Naval Academy, public schools, or anywhere else, they are free to do so on their own. We just should not allow a representative of that institution, like a principle or a teacher, lead that prayer and have everyone say it together.  Prayer is a private matter. Besides this is not just a "Jewish" cause.  There are members of all faiths standing in favor of a continued separation of Church and State. 

I don't know who Michael Newdow is. 

As far as the Passion of Christ, I think Mel Gibson is a nut case. He pretty much shot himself in his drunken foot that night he was picked up DUI spewing all sorts of anti-semitic hogwash. Personally, I had no problem with the film itself, though I wouldn't see it.  (I don't watch gratuitous violence.)  I am not in favor of banning movies or books.

Be well.

Reply #116 Top
Sodaiho, how do Buddhists stay so calm when there are so many dumb people around them who have no scruples and continuously confirm that there is no hope for humankind?
Reply #118 Top
I have read all these comments and I have a question, do you believe that the disciples of Jesus took his body away, and was the resurrection a staged production? And if so why?
Reply #119 Top
Sodaiho posts: #101
July 11, 2008 15:02:30
Lula,.....Christians were considered idolaters. But this has not been the case for a long time.



MM posts: #104
July 11, 2008 16:40:01
I just read through all of the article and comments, I find it both interesting and informative.
I just have one small thing to add. If you are not Jewish you are doomed to die and go directly to hell to burn for eternity for worshiping a false G-D and idolatry.


Well, there it is....one Jew saying one thing and another Jew saying something completely the opposite.

Sodaiho, that long time just got a whole lot shorter....in less than 2 hours MM announced that all non-Jews, like me, are going to hell for idolatry. Is this something else that's been codified in the Talmud?




Reply #120 Top

Nightshades,
I have no opinion one way or the other.  I do know dead men don't walk. 

Be well.

Reply #121 Top

Lula,  I don't know what to do with you.  Have you ever heard the truism, "two Jews, three opinions?"  Goodness.  Get a grip.  Be well.

Reply #122 Top
SlyDrivel, We practice Zazen. Link. Be well.


This man is a genius. You guys have to try this.
Reply #123 Top
KFC POSTS:
In alot of my studies I come across excerpts from the Talmud. I'm not an expert on the Talmud but I understand the Talmud as being two? The Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud is considerably younger than that of the Jerusalem and its traditions far more deeply tinged with superstition and error of every kind according to Alfred Edersheim. For historical purposes the Jerusalem Talmud is of much greater value and authority than that of the Eastern Schools.


The Talmuds (more correctly Thalmuds) are a bit older than Christianity being compiled in Palestine and Babylonia between the 2nd and 6th century AD, well after the Jewish priesthood, sacrifices, Temple, and Sanhedrin had ceased to exist. The Talmud is the rabbinical doctrine, ritual and authoritative code of the synagague.

Speaking of the synagogue, Jewish historians say that it had its beginning during the Babylonian Captivity that's over 1,000 years after the Aaronic priesthood, sacrifices, and sanctuary containing the Holy of Holies were instituted. The synagague can't take the place of the Temple because it lacks the Holy of Holies and the sacrifices.

The Jews didn't always have ministers known as Rabbis by title or office. The designation of their ministers as Rabbis originated during the 1st centuries shortly after 70AD when there were no longer Jewsih priests, Mosaic sacrifices, or Temple. The pupils of Johanan B. Zakkai, who "abrogated" the already abrogated "sacrifices and laws of levitical purification", substituting prayers in the synagogue (as Sodaiho has mentioned) were first to assume the title, after "ordination".

Before the Christian era, rabbi was merely a title of respect, addressed by Jewish pupils to their teachers, andby Jews generally to men more learned than themselves. Rabbi in Palestinian title which means "My Master" as Rab is a Babylonian title given to doctors of the law. and Rabboni (as Christ was called in St.John 20:16), is an Aramaic title, which means "My Lord, Master".

The priests of Mosaic Judaism were consecrated for the altar by competant authorities who had a Divine commission to exercise levitical requirements. Something very similiar to Catholic priests. Whereas there is no central authority to set the standard in Rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism.

The Talmud consists of the Mischna (aka Misna, or Mishnah), the traditional oral law reduced to writing in 200AD which forms the text, and the Ghemara, which is the commentary, an expository supplement to the Mishnah. The Ghemera is two fold, the Palestinian and the Babylonian. It's here in the Ghemera where there are at least a 100 passages which are derogatory statements regarding Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Mother as well as the moral character of Christians.

Evidently the rabbis were confronted with that content in the 13th and 16th centuries and they withdrew having no answer. Finally, they contrived a response around the "context" very similiar to the same arguments Sodaiho came up with when presented with the passages.

Truth is there is no context that excuses this part of Talmudism Judaism...it's just the way the Talmud is...it is what it is.



Reply #124 Top
I agree, dead men don't walk, however the word resurrection means to be dead and live again, but not necessarily to live again in the same body. His disciples did not recognize him after the resurrection. They needed proof that he was who he said he was. I sincerely doubt that they would have forgotten what he looked like in such a short period of time. Do you?
Reply #125 Top
Lula, I don't know what to do with you.


Nor I with you So Daiho...so we're even!

Lucky for you I like to debate too...just like you.

PS...

Would you put in a good word for me with MM? Tell him I can make a good case for being a spiritual Semite---at least according to the principle upon which 1St.Peter 2:9 based his declaration,

"You (followers of the Messias) are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people."